Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

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Vundu
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Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Vundu »

I am building a TX18+10% (in all dimensions). I have access to Nidaplast 8, 25mm thickness and would like to use it for the front deck and sole. I have attached the TDS.

It comes with a scrim and no glass fibre skins. I would very much appreciate a laminating schedule in order to use it for the sole and decks of my project, if it is appropriate.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
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Nidaplast 8 TDS.pdf
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fallguy1000
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by fallguy1000 »

It is going to depend, as all things in boats.

Depends on

1. The maximum and typical spans; like between stringers.

2. The stiffness expected. This, unfortunately is something that is not well documented and subject to a lot of personal preference. Fuzz may have some experience. I have used plascore for sole with 17" spans and I glassed each side with 850 gram triax. Honestly, I cannot remember if I doubled the side in tension, so I don't want to say whether I like it. It is really great what I have. My build records are not what I wish they were. I have pitched a lot and saved some and what I have is all a stack of disorganized papers.

3. I believe a good starting point for you is 2 layers of 12 oz biax each side, or 1708 on the bottom and 1208 on top for somethin stiff, but lighter.

4. Anything less than 24 oz (net) on the bottom will require testing. So, you would maybe build the casting deck and then use it to determine the sole, etc..
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Fuzz
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Fuzz »

I would say Dan has it about right. I laid up some 25mm core with two layers of 1708 each side. This was good for 30 inch spans. But this was deck for a working fish boat so you do not need to go that heavy. If you keep the unsupported span to 24 inch or less what Dan purposed should be good. Remember the glass in tension is doing the most work so if you are not sure go a little heavy on the bottom. You can always add more to the top once it is down but you will not have that option for the bottom.

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by bklake »

Nidaplast makes pre laminated panels. They use a layer of 1708 on both sides. That is a clue as to what you may need. These panels are flat, stiff, and probably don't flex much.

I made a top for my golf cart using honeycomb from another manufacturer. One layer of 12oz biax on each side. It is stiff enough and strong enough for it's intended use. I couldn't resist the urge to block it up and walk on it. Probably 30" between the blocks. It held my weight just fine but flexed and bent more than I would like to see if used for a sole. I do have an arch molded in and some stringers front to back for mounting hold downs.

One issue I ran into was spreading the resin. It pushed into the cells and tended to make the fiberglass go dry. Also, the air in the cells expanded and raised a few bubbles in the laminate. That was because I glassed it on a day when the weather changed drastically. The change in barometric pressure was big. Nidaplast says they have an airtight layer between the scrim and core. That should prevent both of these issues. If I use the same core again, I think Carbon Core?, I will spread a neat coat on the scrim, let it gel, then glass.

17oz on the bottom and 12oz on the top may be a good option. Not so sure the mat in 1708 is needed.

Fuzz
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Fuzz »

bklake, how thick was the core you were using? With honeycomb I have found thicker makes things much stiffer for not much increase in weight or cost. If I am using epoxy I will not use 1708 or even 1208 if I can help it. For the work boat decks poly was used, thus the 1708.

fallguy1000
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by fallguy1000 »

There is a trick to prewetting any plastic honeycomb core with a veil.

Speed.

If you go slow, the resins drip through the thin veil and are wasted

If you do not wet the veil; it is not a good bond. I have bond tested it a few ways.

The wetout rate is high. Roughly 3/4 to one ounce mixed resin per square foot. Use a 1/4"x9" or 6" wide paint roller and fly. Do not pour much directly on one area or the stuff will just run down. The best way is to use a roller pan and apply it like a neat coat which is 2 oz a square yard versus what I found to be around 24 ounces if I wetted it from the pan for a 4x8 panel. Fly over the surface until you see the honeycomb well. Then apply a wetted piece of glass. I did not wetout on the veil for same reasons...only onto a tube and then back to the core..

They make vacuum-able panels; that would probably reduce the thirst of the stuff...
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Vundu »

Thanks very much for the replies. I really appreciate the time you guys have taken to share your advise. I will post the distance between stringers this week.

I only have access to 400g/m2 Biaxial (approx 12oz/yard2) and 400 and 200g/m2 woven and am using epoxy.

I have been exploring a little with vacuum bagging and have made a table large enough to bag full sheets of the Nidaplast, do you have any advise on how much vacuum to pull?

I would pre-wet and laminate the nidaplast then use the vacuum to try and ensure a good bond. I did not think of the possible issues of the air trapped in the honeycombs expanding while under vacuum.

Thanks again.

fallguy1000
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by fallguy1000 »

Well, using vac on honeycomb; you don't want to compress the stuff into the combs; so keep the vac below 10 psi.

I don't wish to toot my own horn, but I have used 400g biax extensively and it is my overall favorite glass.

But.

The idea of using it here under vac or over honeycomb sucks. The reason is the stuff is so damn snaky. Combine that with biax which is hard to wet down through and you will have trouble.

The best way to laminate honeycomb is to move wetted glass to it after it is prewet. And the best glass to move wetted is one that won't deform much. Moving 400 or 600g db suks bad. You want something that won't deform. For sole or decks, I would stick with 1208 or 1708.

If you have no other option; you could try this...

Lay out the 400g with length trace marks every 18" on both the nida and the 400g; so you can see them unrolling.

Wetout the nida at 1/2-1 ounce like I said..

Wetout only the bottom side of the 400g on plastic and try to roll it onto a tube and then roll it off wetside down. If half is dry it might not get so snaky and distort on you.

Or, wet down through all the way on top of the nida which really sucks I've found and uses too much resin.

Either way, I'd experiment. You may also have edge problems as the vac will crush the edges and a lot of bridging is likely. You can placehold with timber pieces or actually laminate in a higher density core that won't crush. And you could get fancy and make the edge support a 45 degree angle to stop bridging.

Me. I'd skip the vac. But if part is a casting deck; I'd do all the inserts for locker or the edges ahead of time. It is really not easy to decore plastic honeycomb cores. It is typically a delam event.

If any of this confuses you; let me know.

I have NOT bagged honeycomb cores; my table is too small AND plascorp makes a vac bag core, I did not buy it; not sure the difference, but I'm guessing air won't cross it.

Whatever you do; don't try to vac both sides; the bottom will get drysucked.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

Fuzz
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Fuzz »

I recently laid up one side of four 25mm panels. I put down a thin layer of resin and let it kick. While it was still green I laid two layers of 1708 over it. It came out good with no pinholes or bubbles. It will go down over crowned deck beams. With the glass only on the bottom side it will bend enough to take the crown no problem.

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by bklake »

Fuzz wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:23 pm bklake, how thick was the core you were using? With honeycomb I have found thicker makes things much stiffer for not much increase in weight or cost. If I am using epoxy I will not use 1708 or even 1208 if I can help it. For the work boat decks poly was used, thus the 1708.
3/4" or 20mm. I don't remember if it was inch or metric.

The whole golf cart top project was for exploring products and processes. I sort of concluded that honeycomb is a very specialized product that is better with specialized processes vs. laminate it like it is plywood. It is spectacular if you have the right equipment. It in no better than, maybe worse than, other core materials if you don't have the right stuff to work with it.

It is a good thing to be able to work with a material that may not be the best for a task but available vs. material that just isn't available to you. I'm sure that I can get better at using honeycomb. I still have 1/4th of the sheet left and some ideas for a use.

If you have never used a product before, start in places where it doesn't matter and mistakes are cheap and easy to fix. Do not cut out and try to laminate an entire sole as your first use. Build a cooler or seat top as a first go with the stuff.

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