VG23 New Build
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cape man
- * Bateau Builder - Expert *
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Re: VG23 New Build
Stop and sharpen the saw...
The world always seems brighter when you've just made something that wasn't there before - Neil Gaiman
Re: VG23 New Build
The saw is indeed being sharpened. 12 knots. Managed not to capsize next to the slipway. No complaints.
Mick
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
Re: VG23 New Build
Should have clarified, that was 12 knots of wind, certainly not SOG!!! Not that brave or good enough in a tippy dinghy 
Nice to be back on the water again. We're not much as sailors (yet) but we're getting there slowly.
Sailed mostly around English/Falmouth Harbours in Antigua (background of the pics). Far too much money on display with the mega-yachts in the big marina, but also nice local boats at the local (cheap!) place we're staying at. From the little we've seen of the island, it is a cracking place. Safe, beautiful, and very friendly people.
The beautiful boat in the pic is on the small dock where we are staying and is owned by a certain guitarist who played in a little known band called The Who.
Back home in a few days and then it will be keel fitting time. We definitely needed the break. Ready to crack on when we get home.
Mick
Nice to be back on the water again. We're not much as sailors (yet) but we're getting there slowly.Sailed mostly around English/Falmouth Harbours in Antigua (background of the pics). Far too much money on display with the mega-yachts in the big marina, but also nice local boats at the local (cheap!) place we're staying at. From the little we've seen of the island, it is a cracking place. Safe, beautiful, and very friendly people.
The beautiful boat in the pic is on the small dock where we are staying and is owned by a certain guitarist who played in a little known band called The Who.
Back home in a few days and then it will be keel fitting time. We definitely needed the break. Ready to crack on when we get home.
Mick
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
Re: VG23 New Build
Jaysen: this one's for you. Forgot to add it earlier. Right on the end of our dock.
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
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Jaysen
- * Bateau Builder *
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- Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:59 am
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Re: VG23 New Build
I forget who’s 580 that is. It was a solid build though. The hull is very similar to the VG23 but frame vs stitch and glue. I have license for hull 4. Mrs is holding the build as she knows I’ll vanish over the horizon once it’s done.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
My someday CK17
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
My someday CK17
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
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glossieblack
- * Bateau Builder *
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- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:28 pm
- Location: Australia
Re: VG23 New Build
Jaysen and mhd, if you jusr wanted to blue water cruise, and you wern't interested in 530 rally events, which iin your opinion and why is the better option - 530 vs VG23: i) ease and cost of build, and ii) blue water cruuisability (including maitenance) - 530 or VG23?
Enjoying following your VB23 build mhd.
Enjoying following your VB23 build mhd.
Currently building Jacques Mertens ST21 "Skinnydip". Boating adventures: Splash testing and using 'Skinnydip, as a basis of further building refinement; Adams 44’ sailing sloop "Great Sandy" (cruising and maintaining); Iain Oughtred Feather Pram "Mini Dip" (building); Jacques Mertens R13 "Wood Duck" (built and due for maintenance).
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Jaysen
- * Bateau Builder *
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- Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:59 am
- Location: St Helena Island, SC
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Re: VG23 New Build
VG23/26 all day, every day.
Stitch and glue construction is simpler and lighter.
Swing keel/lifting CB.
Actual interior that is designed for cruising vs racing.
Januz (580 designer) and Jacques were aware of each other as designers and the 620 ”mini” that was kind of a precursor of sorts for both hull designs. There are “reasons” for the globe 580 designer decision that have more to do with international race certification for safety and home built then “better”. Early on, before the plans were available, we asked for S&G, Januz agreed that it was faster, cheaper and lighter. But safety certification is God.
Anyway… if I were build a blue water I’d go VG26 stretched unidirectionally to 28, lifting bulb keel, 2m retractable bowsprit, reduced cockpit, sealable crash forward of bulkhead A, aft port head, aft starboard double bunks (hi/low), mast/keel trunk supported table, settee/storage on hull sides.
Simple. Stolen from Herreshoff but modernized.
Not that I’ve thought about this at all.
Stitch and glue construction is simpler and lighter.
Swing keel/lifting CB.
Actual interior that is designed for cruising vs racing.
Januz (580 designer) and Jacques were aware of each other as designers and the 620 ”mini” that was kind of a precursor of sorts for both hull designs. There are “reasons” for the globe 580 designer decision that have more to do with international race certification for safety and home built then “better”. Early on, before the plans were available, we asked for S&G, Januz agreed that it was faster, cheaper and lighter. But safety certification is God.
Anyway… if I were build a blue water I’d go VG26 stretched unidirectionally to 28, lifting bulb keel, 2m retractable bowsprit, reduced cockpit, sealable crash forward of bulkhead A, aft port head, aft starboard double bunks (hi/low), mast/keel trunk supported table, settee/storage on hull sides.
Simple. Stolen from Herreshoff but modernized.
Not that I’ve thought about this at all.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
My someday CK17
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
My someday CK17
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Re: VG23 New Build
Hi Glossieblack,
Glad you are following the build! Feel free with comments and suggestions!!
I agree with pretty much all of what Jaysen wrote. But I have truly limited sailing experience, with zero blue water, so probably aren't a good person to ask. So instead a few thoughts below...
My practical sailing knowledge is just a few weeks overall in dinghys, at odd times in my life, plus some more recent keel-boat courses in coastal situations. That said, I spent the vast majority of my working life dealing with physics/mathematics in one form or another, as well as teaching various bits of each subject. I'm decent enough with my hands and my head, and can usually figure things out. And the past three or four years, I've been studying sailing, reading, and researching as much as I possibly can about sailing, engineering, boat-design, and boat-building. At times it feels like every waking hour is somehow connected with boats, when I'm not actually in the garage building. There has been a lot of both. It has been fun. I know more now than I did.
Back four years ago, I checked up what I could before buying the plans and starting building, and everything I read pointed to the VG23/26 for a home-builder, compared to various other similar boats. A bloke called Justin had a great web page on his VG20 build and that probably helped sway my decision also - I could see each stage of his build, and imagine doing it myself. The family of VG designs are comparatively quick to build, stitch and glue allows for plenty of room for error for new builders too, and the build can be as simple or complicated as you choose to make it. Nothing I've read or learned since has changed those views. I didn't know about the 580 design until later, but it isn't exactly large even for one person, and if built-for and crewed by two, it would be a real challenge. Too small for the two of us, but then again some people insist you need a 40' yacht to even contemplate offshore cruising. Each to their own. I debated between the two VG23/26 designs quite a bit. The latter would be nice in terms of size and cruising space for two. A lot more space for stores, etc. Would be really nice, but in my case I could only fit the VG23 build in the garage. So we'll end up with a somewhat over-loaded VG23 if we do venture on passages as currently intended. If and when that happens, I'll feel a bit more qualified to comment on actual sailing I hope we survive long enough to post some updates on that if it ever happens
One thing that might have swayed my build decision was that I read Jacques' comments on the build/designs and he always came across as very honest in his posts. He stated somewhere that the VG23 had slightly better static stability for bluewater than the VG26, but it is really close between the two. I looked up the stability curve for the 580 earlier and it is very similar as well. All three boats should recover quickly from a capsize. That said, it takes less wave energy to turn over a smaller displacement boat, but in my limited experience with design and stability calcs, the actual static stability of any boat when built and on the water depends hugely on how a builder/owner builds/rigs/fit out the boat beyond the original designs. If there is one thing I've learned with my design lessons it is the absolute essential necessity to keep weight low down if you want to keep the *static* stability curve anywhere near what the designer was aiming for.
The VG23 we've built will be much heavier than planned, and hence slower, but I still wouldn't change much, if anything, of the build up to now. All builds are compromises in one way or another. We're not racing, the boat has to be comfortable enough so two people aren't going crazy in it. As we all know, each person has different needs and requirements, and things they are prepared to do with and also to do without. Maybe I'll regret some of the changes I've made when our boat is launched. I'll certainly post on here when that happens.
The 580 in Antigua was truly very nicely built - looked a completely professional job. My own build won't be near that standard. But I'm happy with the changes I've made up to now. I'll only be able to test the reality of that when she is rigged and sailing though
Cheers,
Mick
PS You got me thinking. One other thing I've come to believe over the last few years is that, despite very similar training, it is possible for any two random naval architects to argue intensely about what makes one design "better" than another...the web is full of it. It is like two people arguing about politics or religion. To me, some of it sounds like faith not facts. Light v heavy. Traditional v Modern. Numbers and select calculations are quoted that "prove" one opinion over another, and debates are fierce - as with all things online. (Most) mathematicians tend to agree that 2+2=4. Naval architecture, as I've observed it, seems to be in a position where there still isn't a "right" answer. Static stability calculations (that haven't changed much for over a hundred years) explain how a boat performs when it is stationary in flat water, without dynamics (i.e. without wind/waves). Not exactly a realistic calculation for a boat in any ocean. Calculating such dynamics *accurately* for any real boat, in all the situations it will encounter during its life on the water, is pretty much beyond current ability.
Glad you are following the build! Feel free with comments and suggestions!!
I agree with pretty much all of what Jaysen wrote. But I have truly limited sailing experience, with zero blue water, so probably aren't a good person to ask. So instead a few thoughts below...
My practical sailing knowledge is just a few weeks overall in dinghys, at odd times in my life, plus some more recent keel-boat courses in coastal situations. That said, I spent the vast majority of my working life dealing with physics/mathematics in one form or another, as well as teaching various bits of each subject. I'm decent enough with my hands and my head, and can usually figure things out. And the past three or four years, I've been studying sailing, reading, and researching as much as I possibly can about sailing, engineering, boat-design, and boat-building. At times it feels like every waking hour is somehow connected with boats, when I'm not actually in the garage building. There has been a lot of both. It has been fun. I know more now than I did.
Back four years ago, I checked up what I could before buying the plans and starting building, and everything I read pointed to the VG23/26 for a home-builder, compared to various other similar boats. A bloke called Justin had a great web page on his VG20 build and that probably helped sway my decision also - I could see each stage of his build, and imagine doing it myself. The family of VG designs are comparatively quick to build, stitch and glue allows for plenty of room for error for new builders too, and the build can be as simple or complicated as you choose to make it. Nothing I've read or learned since has changed those views. I didn't know about the 580 design until later, but it isn't exactly large even for one person, and if built-for and crewed by two, it would be a real challenge. Too small for the two of us, but then again some people insist you need a 40' yacht to even contemplate offshore cruising. Each to their own. I debated between the two VG23/26 designs quite a bit. The latter would be nice in terms of size and cruising space for two. A lot more space for stores, etc. Would be really nice, but in my case I could only fit the VG23 build in the garage. So we'll end up with a somewhat over-loaded VG23 if we do venture on passages as currently intended. If and when that happens, I'll feel a bit more qualified to comment on actual sailing
I hope we survive long enough to post some updates on that if it ever happens One thing that might have swayed my build decision was that I read Jacques' comments on the build/designs and he always came across as very honest in his posts. He stated somewhere that the VG23 had slightly better static stability for bluewater than the VG26, but it is really close between the two. I looked up the stability curve for the 580 earlier and it is very similar as well. All three boats should recover quickly from a capsize. That said, it takes less wave energy to turn over a smaller displacement boat, but in my limited experience with design and stability calcs, the actual static stability of any boat when built and on the water depends hugely on how a builder/owner builds/rigs/fit out the boat beyond the original designs. If there is one thing I've learned with my design lessons it is the absolute essential necessity to keep weight low down if you want to keep the *static* stability curve anywhere near what the designer was aiming for.
The VG23 we've built will be much heavier than planned, and hence slower, but I still wouldn't change much, if anything, of the build up to now. All builds are compromises in one way or another. We're not racing, the boat has to be comfortable enough so two people aren't going crazy in it. As we all know, each person has different needs and requirements, and things they are prepared to do with and also to do without. Maybe I'll regret some of the changes I've made when our boat is launched. I'll certainly post on here when that happens.
The 580 in Antigua was truly very nicely built - looked a completely professional job. My own build won't be near that standard. But I'm happy with the changes I've made up to now. I'll only be able to test the reality of that when she is rigged and sailing though
Cheers,
Mick
PS You got me thinking. One other thing I've come to believe over the last few years is that, despite very similar training, it is possible for any two random naval architects to argue intensely about what makes one design "better" than another...the web is full of it. It is like two people arguing about politics or religion. To me, some of it sounds like faith not facts. Light v heavy. Traditional v Modern. Numbers and select calculations are quoted that "prove" one opinion over another, and debates are fierce - as with all things online. (Most) mathematicians tend to agree that 2+2=4. Naval architecture, as I've observed it, seems to be in a position where there still isn't a "right" answer. Static stability calculations (that haven't changed much for over a hundred years) explain how a boat performs when it is stationary in flat water, without dynamics (i.e. without wind/waves). Not exactly a realistic calculation for a boat in any ocean. Calculating such dynamics *accurately* for any real boat, in all the situations it will encounter during its life on the water, is pretty much beyond current ability.
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
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Jaysen
- * Bateau Builder *
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- Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:59 am
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Re: VG23 New Build
I think this is from one of my threads looking to build a cruser for 2. Jacques pushed me away from the VG26 very hard because he knew I would be stupid and sail it out of spec. In that thread he pointed to the original buid conversations for the VG26 which was a now defunct forum. Here are the highlights:
- 2 person multi week capacity
- Full sitting height head
- FULL STANDING HEIGHT (note this... this is the problem)
- shallow draft
- Under the "at the time" small boat 27' docking limit for island marinas
- safe for Miami to Bimini in terms of blue water
In the end those were the point that JM could not get the "community" to give up. This required the cabin height to go up and the beam to go out making the boat "unstable in more than moderate conditions offshore... so you need to pick your days better than you do now" (a message to me via email). His answer was to make the boat longer via skirts/midsection extention and adding the lifting bulb keel (5ft fully extended). At that point the qustion is "why not buy a contessa (calssic boat) or (i hate myself for this) a catalina and be on the water next week?" Hence me not building a VG.
I think the VG23 is one of the best designs he has. I wouldn't hesitate to take it anywhere. I would consider a lifting bulb over swing but thats a preference. I would also pull an integrated dodger over the cockpit once I cleared the 3mi line and was in the open (invest in some AIS gear if you do).
I'm hoping to get my Helms 24 off the dock this year and get the Boss Lady excited about sailing again. It is a shortend C25 more than a long J24. Sails like a J24 though. I have the "long keel" for offshore. To your point about dynamic stability... Jack Helms wasn't a boat guy. So he did what "made sense". He wanted ... a 2 person cruiser that could run offshore between cities down here. So he put all the balast at the bottom of a keel but used a very "round" profile to get space. Damn it... the boat is stable and goes like a bat out of hell. It should be a pig. But it's not. Very comfy too. I'll likely never blue water it more than 25/30mi out. No real need. I pretty much live in paradise. Although... the wahoo are 75mi out and with some dry ice I could stay out for a week...
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
My someday CK17
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
My someday CK17
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Re: VG23 New Build
Hi Jaysen,
We agree. Yep, I read the old VG26 design pages. I won't be building again, even though I'd love the extra size of the VG26. If I ever want or need a bigger boat with headroom I'll probably buy a Contessa 32 and I'm itching to visit the Jeremy Rogers boatyard every time I'm back in the UK. Still, the VG23 is first and may be all we need ever. And I absolutely love the design and how it can be tailored to whatever the builder wants. The only worry I have with the entire design is the centreboard but Jacques was smart and I'm reserving judgement until I've seen and used it in action.
We were so lucky (I think) that we caught the bug at probably the only time in our lives where I could build it myself and we could make it work. Earlier and we wouldn't have the time or money. Later and I would be getting too stale to want the work or stress.
"I pretty much live in paradise" Good for you two!!! The Helms looks a great boat. Why change a winning formula? (But I'm also sure those 580 plans aren't going to go away any time soon.....)
We had the week in Antigua (mostly to meet up and drink rum with an old school mate who was visiting there on a cruise ship) and that was perfect to get us enthused and recommitted to it. Small dock, beautiful harbour, cheap room, island life. A different Paradise. Different from New Mexico, that's for sure
We're 100% on making it happen. Not there especially - anywhere. We probably like the journey more than the destination. I'll drop you a line if we're ever out SC way!Cheers,
Mick
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.
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