Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Posted: **Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:43 am**

This thread will be used to document the rebuilding of the flatback Aquasport. Once the project is complete, we will turn all the content into a static webpage.

To all the pictures we take (not all will be shown it the thread), check out the gallery......

http://gallery.bateau2.com/thumbnails.php?album=495

This entire thread has been condensed into a tutorial located at BBC help page. Here is the link...

http://boatbuildercentral.com/howto.php

end product....

Posted: **Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:44 am**

July 18, 2006

A little further along with the demo. A few things to share:

The stringers (not original) were laminated o the bottom with what looks like 18 oz roving. In several places it was possible to peel the glass back â€“ see one of the below pictures. The secondary bond of the stringers to the hull was very poor. Also, the glass had separated from the stringer wood in all but a few spots.

We are going to take extra precaution to ensure the shape of the hull doesnâ€™t change before we get new stringers and frames installed. Similar to pulling a brand new hull from a mold, unless there is some structure in the hull, it could â€œoil canâ€

Posted: **Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:56 am**

more pictures.... July25

After measuring diagonals from chine to shear to make sure the hull was square, we made a mold for the new transom. Its basically a dam for the new outside skin. The dam is made from Melanine which is secured to a lip of original fiberglass left around the transom. The melanine is coated with mold release wax and PVA. The clamps are only temporary until the dam is secured with screws.

Some small fillets of epoxy/woodflour are laid in followed by a layer of 6 oz cloth. This acts more like a skin coat and also makes a smoother surface for the 1708 Biaxial cloth.

A cardboard template of the inside transom is useful for cutting the 1708 to fit, and will later be used to cut the [url=http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetai ... cell_E2402]2â€

Posted: **Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:05 pm**

You mention, in your tutorials, that when using epoxy as laminating resin, that it is mostly not necessary to use matt when laying up yet in this situation you are using 1708 which has matt with the biax. Why did you use 1708 and not just straight 17 oz biax cloth?

When you tab in the stringers will you also use 1708 or will you just use straight biax cloth for that?

Posted: **Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:14 pm**

rustnrot wrote:You mention, in your tutorials, that when using epoxy as laminating resin, that it is mostly not necessary to use matt when laying up yet in this situation you are using 1708 which has matt with the biax. Why did you use 1708 and not just straight 17 oz biax cloth?

When you tab in the stringers will you also use 1708 or will you just use straight biax cloth for that?

Excellent question

We want to build some outside thickness for puncture resistance (foam doesnt have much by itself

) so the 24 oz total of mat on the outside is just added "bulk". On the inside skin you will see 17 and 12 oz biax without matt, some 45/45 adn 0/90 wil be used. If we used 1708 on the inside it would be a huge waste of epoxy for no added stiffness.

Just a rough estimate, there is probably 5 extra pound of resin in that mat now - thats about $25 in epoxy

Joel

Posted: **Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:33 pm**

OK, fair enough. If one were use marine ply instead of foam, could one skip the layers of matt on the 3 layers that will be going outside the foam? Or, to ask another way, would the lamination schedule be the same if one were to use plywood?

Would Greenwood XL treated boat ply be a good choice for a transom? I noticed that you used to stock it but no more. Reason?

Posted: **Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:43 pm**

For a wood core and epoxy, no mat. The lamination would be quite different for a wood transom.

We no longer sell/stock fir because the Meranti is much higher quality, and cost the same or less.

Would you mind starting a new thread on your boat? that way we can give specific answers for your boat.

Joel

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:55 am**

August 4

Bedding the transom core. The Transom core is [url=http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetai ... cell_E2402]Renicell E240 from DIAB, 2â€

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:26 pm**

I like the project you got me jones'n to do one....Just curious as to why you didn't do the Renicell first and by pass the melanine part...then laminate the outside, as well as the inside...I like the post and the project, maybe a TV show with less SeaRay commericials in the future

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:30 pm**

Dat Be Me

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:19 pm**

The reason is the seam over the sides: we want it clean without that ridge, too difficult to fair. This way we don't touch the sides on the outside.
Joel and I discussed the possibility of building a transom away from the boat and then taping it but it is much stronger this way. All the layers overlap the sides and participate in the bond to the hull.
Joel may add to that, he his doing 99% of the work.
About the mat: a lamination must not only be strong but stiff and resistant to puncture. We quickly get sufficient strength with a few layers of directional glass but it's not thick enough for the other porperties. We need more thickness and we can get that with expensive material or cheap stuff like mat. We use mat.
That problem rarely appears with a plywood core because we get the sitffness from the plywood.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:20 pm**

The new outside skin is tied into the hull by overlapping 12" up the sides and bottom. We could not have done this from the outside without a whole lot of grinding and fairing. from the outside of the hull

Also its nearly impossible to get 1708 to stay on a such an angle above vertical (transom angle) - it would just fall down. Unless we flipped the hull, then it would work.

Joel

I get your reference to the TV show

Next time you watch "that show", notice the trim angle on that SeaBird project boat

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:11 pm**

I understand...More or less saved time (less sanding)

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:46 pm**

Mold removed......

Posted: **Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:23 am**

Great job Shine,

I installed the lift on mine yesterday. It is a CMC with 5.5" setback. The transom was sound on it except for 2 hairline cracks. They were at the corners of the deepest cut out for the engine (Suzuki DT 200). I added three layers of 12 oz biaxial across the transom in that area. I have to decide what to do about paint as I need it inside and out. The floor is badly stained by rust. The fold out seat in front of the console is shot and I have added a hard T-top that I want to paint to match the boat. I was lucky that the boat was kept inside most of the time. I don't like the ventilation intakes on the bow deck, but know they are needed. Also there is a damaged area just behind the front deck on the port side. It looks like a heavy sharp object has been dropped there. I was told my boat is a 1991 year. I have the HIN number and would like to verify that date. The registration says 1990, but the engine is a 91 year model.

Best regards,
Robertk

Posted: **Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:26 am**

wow that came out very nice and clean. i see now why you did it from the inside. plus it makes total sense that the 1708 would not stay on unless the boat was flipped. this is why i check this forum on a regular basis. i learn something new every day. you guys are amazing and i really appreciatte you sharing your expertise with us forum members.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:02 am**

August 14, 2006

Put in first 2 layers of inside transom skin. First layer is 1708, second is DB1700. The inside skin will be 4 layers total of 17 oz. Biaxial glass. The first layer has mat (1708) because the mat helps conform to any uneven spots in the fillet. Subsequent layers will not have mat as it will just use more epoxy and not add strength.

I worked â€œwet on wetâ€

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:27 am**

Joel,

Looks like your boat is back in floating order.

Do you have an estimated BOM for the transom replacement, I am getting ready to order materials and would love to have something to base my amounts on. The transom that I am replacing is roughly 33"x83".

How do you plan to clean the interior mat and roving glass, just sanding it. How about a lite pressure washing, it's not as if it hasn't been wet for 30 years anyway and with 99 degree heat (FLORIDA) it should be dry in a week.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:35 am**

You need a 24 grit grinding wheel attached to a grinder - and a tyvek suit

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:04 am**

August22

Transom is complete!

Have spent the last couple days grinding out a path for the new stringers. Unfortunately it want not just a matter of cleaning a path, but removing 2 layer of roving and matt. Even with a 24 grit grinding disk, it took 6 hours total. Results are a clean path for the bond of the new stringers and about 40 pounds of fiberglass dust in the trash can.

Now I start taking some measurements for the stringers. I sure wish I could find someone who could give me some measurements of the original sole height

Joel

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:10 am**

Joel,

Was the sole of that boat have a core? Mine does and I'm trying to figure out how to replace the floor and deal with the two skins when it is time to integrate a new floor.

Dan

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:34 am**

Dan,

Im not sure how practical it would be to save the lower skin of a cored sole. Its the lower skin that will be bonded to stringers and frames, so if your removing any of that I would be very hard to keep the lower sole skin intact.

I would take it all out.

Joel

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:29 am**

The channels that I see, are they left from the stringers or are they a feature of the hull.

If they are do you plan to run the new stringers in them or just fill them?

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:01 pm**

2stinger wrote:The channels that I see...

Those are strakes molded into the hull, the stringers were a couple inches inside thos strakes.

Im 90% sure we will fill them in and glass over before installing the stringers

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:11 pm**

Joel I have some inspection plates and openings in the sole of my boat, Could I just use a dowel and get the measurements for you? I live in Sebastian.

Robertk

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:31 pm**

Hi Robert,

I thought yours was a newer Aquasport? Im just looking for the sole height so I make the stringers high enough that the boat will self bail.

If its a flatback, then I'd love to know the distance from the sole surface to the top of the gunnels, also the distance from the transom to the console. Thanks

Joel

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:11 pm**

What is that round looking thing? Is it a PVC pipe covered with glass?

What are your thoughts on using Prisma preforms that have an outer layer(s) of fiberglass bonded to an inner foam core for the stringers? I remember "That TV show boat guy" using them once.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:21 pm**

That PVC pipe is a stiffener put in by the previous rebuilder - Im leaving it in until I get the new stringers in. the it comes out and a new center stringer goes in.

If you take all the internal supports out of the hull at once it will deform. Thats why we laft the gunnel cap and a lip of the sole - holds things in shape.

Also before putting in the stringers we are going to lay the hull into a "cradle" to ensure its fair.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:08 pm**

This is a great thread; I ran across the album and couldn't figure out how you were building the transon...now I see. Great project. A couple basic questions... (a) there always seemed to be some debate of how well epoxy would bond to polyester resin. Properly prepped, I guess its no problem? (b) I generally like to Aquasport lines, but what is so special about the flatback? How is different from newer ones?

Looking forward to see more....

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:26 am**

Epoxy to polyester is about as good as it gets. Epoxy to polyester is MUCH MUCH better than polyester to polyester.

The flat back is popular because there is nothing made like it anymore. Nearly completely flat deadrise at the transom allows for a 10" true draft (better than most modern "bay" boats), but its still enough boat to take out in the Ocean. Plus it has a pretty shear line

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 am**

Steve_MA wrote:... (a) there always seemed to be some debate of how well epoxy would bond to polyester resin. Properly prepped, I guess its no problem?

The debate is about secondary bond between polyester. Nobody ever questioned epoxy, it is without doubt the strongest bond you can get.
In most cases, it is impossible to get a good bond between polyester and polyester. Unfortunately, many repair shops lack technical knowldege or are too cheap to use the correct resin.
Many polyester boat manufacturers now use DCPD poly. It is a better resin that ortho or isophtalic but you can't repair it except with epoxy. Polyester will peel off DCPD polyester.
That may be the debate that you had in mind.

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:39 pm**

August 25

Made templates for stringers. Having a lip of the old sole still in place allowed me to take a straight edge and square to take rough measurements of the stringer depth. Using those rough measurements I cut out templates from scrap plywood. Make sure when you join the scrap that you maintain a straight edge for the top. I cut the template an inch or so short on the hull side of the stringer so I could â€œfloatâ€

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:58 pm**

Joel you are right about my hull being different. It has a shallow "V" in the back.

Robertk

Posted: **Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:51 am**

jacquesmm wrote:
Steve_MA wrote:...
That may be the debate that you had in mind.

How about on the outside of the transom where you are going to probably fill and tape to the hull - which is gelcoat. How do you repair and transition that area....I guess that might be a wait and see

Posted: **Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:11 am**

The fiberglassing of the outside of the transom is complete.
I understand that some expect an extra overlap on the outside of the transom but this is not needed. The bond between the sides and transom is perfect as it is. Plus, the torque of the engine will go mostly to the stringers, sole and motorwell assembly. Count on us to make that part much stronger than it was.

Joel started with the outside skin in a fake mold: the Formica panel.
He did build up and overlapped the sides, the overlaps are there, nicely staggered.
Then he installed the foam core, build the inside skin with overlaps.
The whole thing is done with epoxy and much stronger than the original hull.
An epoxy lamination with directional glass has almost twice the tensile strength of a standard mat and roving in polyester.
The Aquasport like many boats of that period was made of the traditional 24 oz. roving alternated with 1.5 oz mat. And when Joel grinds, I see a lot of mat in there, those guys overused their chop gun.
The outside is very smooth. To finish he will use QuickFair but very little will be needed then apply the Sterling paint system over the whole boat.
No gel coat. Gel coat is cheap polyester and does not have as much gloss as LPU. Plus, the LPU has almost twice the Barkol hardness of gel coat.
All luxury yachts are finished with LPU, not gel coat.
This is going to be a much better boat than the original Aquasport or than the ones rebuild with polyester resin.

Posted: **Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:17 am**

Jacques/Joel

I've enjoyed this thread a lot and have referred a couple of guys rebuilding boats to it for reference.

Will this project to refit the Aquasport influence any of your existing or future designs for similar boats? Possibly a foam only project?

It's something to read about these materials & processes but it's a million times better to see it happen. I can't way to try it for myself

Rick

Posted: **Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:26 am**

laporter wrote: Will this project to refit the Aquasport influence any of your existing or future designs for similar boats? Possibly a foam only project?
Rick

We always have foam or honeycomb sandwich in mind. My very first professional design in the 70's was for foam sandwich. I started using plywood only 14 years ago, for small boats.
Unfortunately, foam sandwich construction doesn't make sense for small boats. Those boats would be heavier and costly to build.
We have a PH15 version in foam sandwich but it is twice as expensive as the plywood version and maybe 10 times more difficult to build.
Sandwich construction becomes a valid material around 28'.
Foam scantlings are available for the VG26 and TW28. The new PG28 and the TW34 will each have foam sandwich as an alternate hull material.

Posted: **Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:55 am**

I noticed that on your project as in mine the boats really don't have any bulkheads. Maybe one or two around the fuel tank but even they don't go outside the stringers. How do you plan to change this configuration or will you keep it the same and just glass the sole to the sides. I would think that a bulkhead at each deck sole seem would be the minimum.

Posted: **Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:15 am**

We will build a "egg crate" stinger /frame grind just as in our designs.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:49 pm**

Progress is being made

Just finished one of the stringers. We have a nice flat/long bench on one of the walls behind the office, this made laminating the multiple layers of 17 ox Biaxial glass on each side a snap. The stringers are 2 layers of H80 Divinycell 1/2" glued together. The stringer probably weighs 40 pounds. It will be tabbed in with Biax tape as well as â€œcappedâ€

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:56 am**

what year and size is this boat??
was it a salvage, or a backyard bargin??

great job and keep all the info coming.
we need more like this.

Posted: **Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:25 am**

Its a 22.2 "flatback" Aquasport. Title says 1977, but I'm not 100% thats correct. 22' long and relatively narrow, only 72" from chine to chine at the transom. Boat came from E-bay.

Posted: **Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:50 pm**

The hull is on a cradle. The purpose of the cradle is to make sure the hull is straight before glassing in the new stringers. The new stringers are made, they will go in the boat next week. Once they are in, you will see a pick up in the pace. (hopefully)

This is how we took it off the trailer...

BTW, I found a flatback only a few miles from our office. It was a late 60' model and structurally was all original - got my cockpit depth measurement from him. Does 20" from sole to cap sound right to you all?

Joel

Posted: **Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:42 pm**

Joel,

Would wood stringers of sufficient thickness encapsulated in epoxy have weighed less than the foam ones?

Laszlo

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:10 am**

No, wood stringers would be heavier.

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:04 am**

Maybe 20 pounds heavier, each. They are pretty light, even without vacuum bagging.

Joel

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:17 pm**

I couldnt help but notice in the pics of the bottom after you sanded/ground you did not grind out the grooves that were to small for the grinder.
Will the glass stick well enough when you fill them?
I also notice you did not remove the small stringer down the center.
I am asking because I have the same type of repair and have been trying to figure out how to sand down in the grooves.
I also have a small center stringer with no rot at all and am not sure I need to take it out. I dont want to have to grind any more than I allready have to

When I can resize my pics I will post them in the Arrowglass Cheeta thread
Jared

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:09 am**

The little "grooves" formed by grinding are pretty small when using a 5" sanding disk - you try to blend them in. Your right if there is a hard edge, it will cause an air pocket.

2 things help in avoiding the air pockets. First is to grinding away "sharp" edges, so the glass can conform. The second is to use a Biaxial with mat like 1708 or 1208 for the first layer. Mat is like a sponge to some extent and it helps in getting a quality with an uneven surface.

If you work "wet on wet" thereafter, no need for mat.

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:35 pm**

You said

[Those are strakes molded into the hull, the stringers were a couple inches inside thos strakes.

Im 90% sure we will fill them in and glass over before installing the stringers ]

Those are the grooves I was asking about.
If you cant sand down inside those strakes will the filler stick well enough?
Jared

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:51 pm**

Digger873 wrote:Those are the grooves I was asking about.
If you cant sand down inside those strakes will the filler stick well enough?

You could try a wire wheel or brush, vacuum the dust and wipe with acetone. That should knock off the top layer of bilge crud give you a good surface for the resin to bond to.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:26 am**

OK, I uderstand now.

Yes, we will fill them in with filler and glass over. I will clean them out a much as possible, but its not super important.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:16 am**

Stringers are cut to the correct height and are held in place with braces for glassing. The braces hold the stringers are the correct spacing and also parallel â€“ which is important

That piece of PVC pipe will be removed and new center stinger laid down â€“ pretty easy.

We may cap the stringers with some uni-directional carbon fiber

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:46 am**

Why would the carbon fiber be necessary?

Is that a Perko flush mount hammer holder there! I've been looking for one of those.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:57 am**

fishingdan wrote:Is that a Perko flush mount hammer holder there! I've been looking for one of those.

I got mine on e-Bay for $149.99! A real bargain! It was the De-Lux model with the built in chisel sharpener!

Looking good Joel. Silly question; are you going use an outboard or I/O on this boat?

Rick

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:03 pm**

fishingdan wrote:Why would the carbon fiber be necessary?

Its not, but we have some

We will sell this boat at some point, so the carbon fiber goes right along with the "no wood".

If it were a boat I was building for myself to keep forever, I would have used Meranti throughout.

Knottybuoyz wrote:are you going use an outboard or I/O on this boat?

A 25" outboard, probably 150 hp. The engine will hang a few inches below the red line you see on the transom

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:45 pm**

Theoritically, the carbon fiber cap will add stiffness to the hull. Practically, it will not make a difference because the hull will be stiff enough but, as Joel say, to be able to use the words carbon fiber and Kevlar can raise the price tag out of proportions of the small cost increase.
We have to find a way to use Kevlar . . .

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:39 pm**

That is interesting about the kevlar. Will this be just a strip across the top (probably no additional strength) or will it completely cover the stringer?

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:12 pm**

No idea . . . maybe a strip along the keel for improved resistance to abrasion?
That way we can say: Carbon-Kevlar-Epoxy composite.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:15 pm**

You mean a Carbon-Kevlar-Fiberglass-Epoxy-Polyester Composite Boat. Not to shabby.

Do you Plan on replacing the rails, I noticed that you have cut up a small portion. Because if you didn't it would be a Carbon-Kevlar-Fiberglass-Wood-Epoxy-Polyester Composite Boat. Say that three times fast.

It looks good so far, how do you plan to adhere the stringers to the hull?

-Fillet and tape or set in adhesive epoxy filler then fillet and tape.

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:23 am**

2stinger wrote: Do you Plan on replacing the rails, I noticed that you have cut up a small portion.

All that will be ripped out soon. I had to leave the cap/gunnels in to help keep the boat in shape while we put in new structure.

the only thing that will remain of the original boat is the last couple layers of fiberglass of the hull bottom and sides - basically is 99% new boat. i liken it to taking a rusted classic car body and putting it on a new chassis - the only thing that is original is some of the sheet metal.

If its not a pain, we will re-title it as a 2007 boat

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:42 am**

On the subject of places to add CF tape:
Capping the transom between the motor well sides might be a good place. That would just about eliminate what little flex there might be across the transom since the rectangle that the motor bolts to would then be braced on three sides with the motor well and the top would have an inverted U shaped CF beam across it. Probably not absolutely necessary, but still not a bad place to add a little overkill for promotional purposes.

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:39 am**

2stinger wrote:You mean a Carbon-Kevlar-Fiberglass-Epoxy-Polyester Composite Boat. Not too shabby.

with Perko flush mount hammer holders... that should get another 50 bucks asking price...

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:47 am**

hardware will be by Accon

They are the "kings" of pop-up hardware.

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:09 am**

A pop-up hammer holder sounds dangerous...

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:53 am**

Anonymous wrote:A pop-up hammer holder sounds dangerous...

'specially if yer sittin' on the rail when it pops! Yikes!!! I'm sorry, I couldn't resist that opportunity!

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:53 pm**

Name the boat *Three Stooges*?

also needs an oversized boat hook to swing around knocking people in the head...

Posted: **Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:19 pm**

Stringers are glassed in - there are 3 layers (offset) of 12 oz. Biax tape. Also filled in the strakes.....

Posted: **Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:35 pm**

If we could all manage laminations that nice there would be no more questions to ask!

Daniel

Posted: **Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:55 pm**

If we could all manage laminations that nice there would be no more questions to ask!

Daniel

You too will soon be there grasshopper.

Posted: **Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:50 pm**

Thanks guys, but there is nothing to it besides "wet on wet"

Posted: **Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:42 pm**

Nice job Joel.

Looks like the tops of the stringers are not glassed. Will you glass over the top of them or just bed the decking directly to the tops of the strings as they are?

Rick

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:30 am**

Looks like the tops of the stringers are not glassed. Will you glass over the top of them or just bed the decking directly to the tops of the strings as they are?

I was wondering that myself. I just decided to watch and listen and I knew it would be addressed.

Daniel

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:44 am**

The tops will be capped.

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:30 am**

jacquesmm wrote:The tops will be capped.

On the previous page we talked about capping the stringers and how we may even use carbon fiber

Posted: **Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:55 am**

The hull is getting new glass

Below we show 50 oz. of new fiberglass one one side of the boat. We will hopefully get the rest of the bottom glassed next week.

It took hours of grinding to remove the "repair" layers of glass. The previous repair was done with polyester and mat, they just slopped it in. There were water filled voids every where, also huge pools of plain resin. The 7" grinder with 24 grit disk made it a little easier vs. the old 4.5" grinder.

It was easy to tell when we ground down to the original 30+ year old glass, as it was much better.

Posted: **Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:21 am**

I found some 16 grit grinding disks for the 4.5" grinder and they cut glass like butter. What was taking me HOURS was reduced to minutes. A local tool shop in St. Augustine carries them, I had never seen 16 grit disks before but I am glad I found them.

If you have more than one grinder (I have three) you can rotate them so they can cool. I rotate them because 16 grit is a big load for a little grinder.

Keep on Itching.

Posted: **Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:42 am**

The torque of the 7" Makita is nice also for those agressive disks. Lets see an update on your project Stinger

Posted: **Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:04 pm**

16? Yikes!

Did you try 36 first? 36 seemed dangerous to me, but I use it often now for the initial ridge removal. 36 is so fast. I'd be afraid of 16 ripping into wood fibers before I knew it, but then, technique becomes so important, and if you are doing demolition on a glass hull for a rebuild, and if your 16 is doing it, go to it man! Let the glass fly! (respirator)

Posted: **Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:23 am**

2 layers [urlhttp://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetail.php?prod=E_bias_1708]1708/epoxy[/url] on the bottom between the stringers. Next we will cap the stringers with carbon fiber and begin to install some floor frames. With a few floor frames in the hull, it will be stiff enough to remove what remains of the old sole and gunnels. My guess is that there will be less than 400 pounds of original boat left when its complete

Posted: **Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:11 pm**

What a difference already!

ks

Posted: **Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:02 am**

Progress is slow but steady, the bottom has new glass. 50 oz. of new 1708/epoxy.

The rest of the old cap, sole, and frames are out. I also have taken out a couple hundred pounds of mat that was laid on in the previous "re-build" to the sides. You can see from the below pictures, its all been removed to the original glass on the port side. I am going to put more new epoxy/biax on the sides. Instead of using 1708 (like on the new bottom) we will probably use jut DB1700 (no need for the mat on the sides).

This is the last of the demo work, thank goodness.

Posted: **Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:31 pm**

Joel is doing one heck of a job on this. I stopped by friday and checked it out. Can't wait to see it finished.

Posted: **Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:45 pm**

Having been there myself before on a Supra, at what point do you say is it worth it? Would it have been cheaper and or quicker to build a C21 or CS23?

Posted: **Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:00 pm**

Having been there myself before on a Supra, at what point do you say is it worth it? Would it have been cheaper and or quicker to build a C21 or CS23?

Yeah but Joel has an ulterior motive. He doesn't really want the boat in the end. For him its the process that has value.

Posted: **Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:10 pm**

This one is worst case and I would never rebuild another boat that was this far gone, but as Chris said the value is in the pictures and tutorial value. We may even sell it before we rig it.

Most of the guys we help with re-pair/re-builds are doing the transom, sole or both â€“ which is a lot easier than this project.

I bet we could have a CS23 to the same stage in less time and about the same $$$ - less itching also

Posted: **Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:31 am**

shine wrote:This one is worst case and I would never rebuild another boat that was this far gone, but as Chris said the value is in the pictures and tutorial value. We may even sell it before we rig it.

Most of the guys we help with re-pair/re-builds are doing the transom, sole or both â€“ which is a lot easier than this project.

I bet we could have a CS23 to the same stage in less time and about the same $$$ - less itching also

This is what I tell folks when they suggest a rebuild instead of from scratch new construction. Very few believe me. The demo work is the worst, the poly and glass break apart more than epoxy and glass and the itching is way worse. Life can be miserable during a rebuild

, life is good during new construction!

Posted: **Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:56 am**

One valuable thing we learn here is just how scary some "repairs" can be. It looks like the extra mat on the hull sides just sort of chipped and peeled away. It was a good way to add extra weight without adding much strength to the structure.

Whether it is economically feasible or not, using proper materials and techniques will give you a rebuild that you can depend on when you need that extra strength the most. That might just be worth the extra cost and hassle when you are having a real bad day on the water.

Posted: **Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:22 am**

Used an air chisel to peal the mat off. Then we will use the 7â€

Posted: **Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:03 pm**

About three more power tools and we will give you the "Norm Abrams certificate of Achievement"

Posted: **Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:18 pm**

More like "Tim the Toolman"

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:52 pm**

Grinding is complete

Tomorrow the stringers get capped with unidirectional carbon fiber and a new "stem" of Renicell foam core and biax tape. The bow stem will be built as tough as the transom.

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:17 pm**

Stringers are capped with carbon fiber and regular biaxial fiberglass tape. We used Silvertip epoxy with the carbon fiber. In order to get the best of the carbon's properties, you need to use a more high performace epoxy.

The carbon and glass tapes were wet out on the long table, then rolled up and taken to the boat. Once all 3 layers were on (1 layer carbon, 2 layers glass) we squeezed and rolled on a sheet of plastic. This holds the lamination dwn very well and gets rid of all/most air bubbles.

Also today we glued in new foam core into the bow, tomorrow we will lay new glass over this (several layers of Biaxial) to make a new bow "stem". The foam is the same material as the transom (E240 Renicell from DIAB), we just ued a grinder to shape it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:25 am**

Joel,

Grasshoppa have question?

Tell me about the stringer cap and why it is so different that it needs or could warrant the carbon? Is it because the foam isn't "helped" with wood cleats to support the sole? Sorry just read those old pages - got it, marketing.

Also the foam bow "stem" purpose? Just a nice strong cored structure up front to stiffen that area up?

Just curious and trying learn from da masta. Thanks.

Jim

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:02 am**

Foam stringers need more glass. The unidirectional CF is much, much stiffer than glass (not counting S-Glass). So the idea is that we can use one layer of 9 oz. uni carbon tape in place of several (if not more) layers of 12 oz. Biax tape. So its lighter, stronger, and takes less time/labor. The downside is only cost, around $10/yard for this particular tape.

We want to show as many different materials and techniques with the project boat. Plus, I am pretty sure this will be the only 222 flatback aquasport in the world with Carbon fiber stringers

For the bow, its mainly to stiffen things up and to give a nice transition for the glass we are going to put in. The angle up in the bow was beyond the bend of what we can get 1708 to take.

Joel

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:50 pm**

2 layers 17 oz. Biaxon sides

New glass up the bow

Next week comes the frames

New pictures at the gallery.....

http://gallery.bateau2.com/thumbnails.p ... 495&page=9

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:14 am**

Joel,

What's with the screws along the chine up at the bow?

Laszlo

Posted: **Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:26 am**

Laszlo wrote:Joel,

What's with the screws along the chine up at the bow?

Laszlo

Those are the bolts holding on the spray rails. We decided to keep the spray rails, and just reshape them to look nicer.

Some filler over the bolts and a layer of tape, then the 2 layers of 17 oz Biax just went right over them.

Joel

Posted: **Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:55 pm**

I noticed on your boat joel that there is no keel stringer,my 76 aquasport has a small stringer laid inside the keel.It also has a piece of plywood on either side of this stringer,which are soft can I possibly just grind out the soft stuff and re glass the stringer with out those pieces of ply.

Posted: **Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:34 am**

there was on in ours, but we took it out.

Posted: **Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:43 am**

More pictures. We used cardboard to make templates for all the floor frames.

Cut the pieces out from a pre-made divinycell panel.

Those pieces then get "tacked" in place with thickend epoxy.

Then we lay in fillet material, followed by 2 layers of 6" 12oz. Biaxial tape - all "wet on wet".

Here is the console, its very similar to a Pathfinder Bayboat

And the 66 gallon tank with digital sender unit

Posted: **Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:16 pm**

Looking great!

Maybe I missed it earlier, but did you guys build or buy that console?

Tim

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:55 am**

its a surplus console, we are going to use a lot of prefabed parts for this boat. (console, leaning post/live well, hatches, etc...)

Joel

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:47 am**

Okay I'm going to speak my mind now about this project.
It's not Fair. Ya'll have a supplies of materials that look like it will never end. My knee have sores on them from kissing my wife butt for extra money to finish the 3 boats in my shop. go ahead and gloat.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:08 pm**

Three boats? You best hush and keep kissing!

frazoo

Posted: **Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:42 pm**

No kidding, I'm still having issues with the first one...

Posted: **Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:27 am**

Quick update:

Beginning to glue cleats to frames - the 2" Renicell foam is overkill, but its what we had left over from the transom. the sole will have A LOT of support and gluing area.

These are "frames" made of the same renicell and a few layers of Biax - this is what the fuel tank will rest on. The black strips are1/4" neoprene - use strips of this all around the fuel tank.

This is the baitwell/leaning post we are going to use. Its going to need some work. 30 gallon live.

Posted: **Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:40 pm**

Update:

The last of the cleats are glued to the frames. We are going to use pre-finished Nida-Core honey comb panelsfor the sole â€“ the large cleats will give a nice base for the seams of the panels to rest.

The motorwell bulk head is being classed in, we made it from H80 and 2 layers of 17 oz biax on each side (45/45 and 0/90). Silvertip epoxy was used for this very important part.

Tank is installed.

Next week the sole goes on

Posted: **Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:21 pm**

Joel Did you seal outside of tank with epoxy? I think I would if it is under the sole like you have it. will help keep any moisture off of it and keep it from corrosion in the future. Just a thought. Looks great. To me Nida core is really a pain to use. filling in all the edges after trim is on takes a lot of time. The Xf is almost done and ready for consol and tower. Still have to fair the top decks and finish sanding the rubrails and interior trim. All Sapelli Mahogony. Beautiful stuff. I will say this Xf 20 is not your basic no frills boat. Not going to have the 1" draft like the normal plans show. going to be showroom sharp when finished.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:33 am**

Sole is cut out and fit dry. We are using the 20mm (3/4") pre-fab panels. they come with 18 oz glass on each side.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:45 pm**

Would those sole panels be suitable for a GF18?

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:35 pm**

they come with 18 oz glass on each side.

That's 36 oz. glass per sq. ft, plus a like amount of epoxy = 72 oz. per sq. ft. (epoxy is rule of thumb, may be slightly less)

Looks a little stout to me for the GF18. An equivalant weight of plywood would be (4X8ft) 32 sq. ft. x 36 oz. = 72 lbs. just on the glass alone.

Hmmmmmm................................

Looking at this picture, I'm wondering if it really is 18 oz.

Joel??

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:17 am**

Boomer,

I think those pre-fabbed panels are vacuum-bagged. If so, the epoxy should be a lot less than 36 oz per sq. ft. That would also explain why the glass layers look so thin on the picture.

Laszlo

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:34 am**

Those premade honeycomb panels are lighter than 1/2" plywood and much stiffer.
Joel already left for the Christmas holiday and I will ask him when he returns but the skin maybe less than 18 oz. plus, it is either vacuum bag or RTM = high glass content.
Yes, you could use them on a GF18 but take in account shipping cost. Those panels are shipped by truck which is fine if you add it to a plywood order but expensive if you order just 2 or 3 panels.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:39 am**

If so, the epoxy should be a lot less than 36 oz per sq. ft.

Brain fart. FG weight is per sq. yard, and I was thinking per sq. foot. So we're talking 36 oz. fabric per sq yard, plus whatever epoxy, equals 4 oz. fabric per sq. ft,, and using the 1:1 ratio of fabric to resin, 8 oz. per sq ft. which is pretty light.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:44 am**

it is 18 roving. Made in a panel press. Stiffness is very close to 1/2" meranti.

Merry Christmas

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:27 pm**

Cool. What are the pros and cons? I will be ordering plywood anyway, so shipping cost is not a concern. I'd like to keep the weight down where I can, without giving up strength. What does a sheet of it cost?

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:40 am**

Hi Larry,

A sheet of 20mm is about $240

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:53 am**

WOW

So what's a little extra weight?

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 pm**

A sheet of 20mm is about $240

Hey Joel

So how does that compare to say a 15 mm sheet of marine ply laminated both sides with with 18oz glass & epoxy plus figuring in your time to produce it? I'm thinking it would come out pretty close to the same cost in the the long run eh?

Rick.

PS. Hope everybody had a good holiday!

Posted: **Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:27 pm**

It would weight close to double the 20mm nidacore panel, but prob cost half as much.

You do not save money with Nida-core panels - you do save a good amount of weight though

Posted: **Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:24 am**

Cracker Larry wrote:

WOW

So what's a little extra weight?

Yes... I keep telling myself that!

ks

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:45 am**

How far out from the transom did you set you motor bulkhead and how did you come up with this distance.

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:54 am**

Its about 17" from the top of the transom. You have to take into account how the motor will trim up. If we mount the motor right at 25", the there will have to be a cutout of the top of the motorwell bulkhead to allow the cowling to clear. Its my intention to put the motor on a jack plate with at least 8" set back and 6" of vertical travel. this will allow the engine to be trimmed all the way up and over the rear deck (no motorwell).

for your boat, you will need to decide what sort of motor well you will have. Either one with a full height bulkhead (like most our designs) or one with a splash well and board like in some production boats (Seacraft still does it this way) The benefit of the later is more cockpit space.

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:56 pm**

Making recesses for the scupper drains. ......

Posted: **Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:12 pm**

This is the bottom of the leaning post/live well. We are going to glass this to the sole on the outside. On the inside we will epoxy glue a 90 degree "flange" that we made in a mold out of 6" ox Biax tape and a divinycell triangle. You might notice that the sides of the leaning post are mishaped.

We are going to epoxy the 90 degree pieces to the sole, they will then force the base of the leaning post back to shape. Then we glass all around the outside. This is the 90 degree bracket or "cleat"....

Posted: **Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:52 am**

The sole is not glassed down yet, we are just getting final placement on the leaning post and console.

This is how the scuppers will fit....

Stern view...

Next, we fill bottom sections with foam, then glass down sole. After that comes the deck

Posted: **Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:43 am**

After that comes the deck

Is 3 pallets of plywood going to be enough to finish the deck?

It's really starting to look good now that we can see the layout. Are you planning on or making provisions for a T-top?

Posted: **Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:05 am**

I am at the same point with my project and had a couple of questions on yours.

The placement of you console, how did you decide. Did you look at someone else's Aquasport or calculate it.

The Leaning post/live bait well, what would be a good separation distance from the console. Is there a standard? 18"?

Posted: **Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:22 am**

The placement of you console, how did you decide. Did you look at someone else's Aquasport or calculate it.

We located an original Aquasport (very same hull) and I took a lot of measurements. Ours had be "re-built" once before so I wanted to start with the original numbers. I also used scaled pictures of other rebuilt hull to locate things.

The Leaning post/live bait well, what would be a good separation distance from the console. Is there a standard? 18"?

Just by feel. You need enough space to get by the wheel. Being too far away from the wheel is very uncomfortable when running in a chop or swell. Our is just about 18".

Another measurement I have used all around the boat is the width of a 5 gallon bucket. Buckets should be able to slide around console, between the deck and console

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:54 pm**

more progress....

We made the sole in three parts. This is the middle part, you can see we traced the footprint of the console. The holes are for chase tubes and inspections plate (one over the fuel fill/vent lines another over the fuel feed and gauge)

glass lais out and cut in advance. Fillet has been down for 20 minutes and is ready for glass.

[/img]

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:37 pm**

Boy am I glad I found this thread! My next project after the D5 I'm building is to get my 77-78 Robalo 190 wet again, after Hurricane Irene.

Joel, Question?

It looks like you just installed a new tank, perhaps a Moeller? Was it impossible to find one of the original dimensions? My Robalo has a 55 gallon Aluminum tank that I have pulled and saved....and was thinking of glassing and epoxying....what's your advice on that? The tank has "issues".

On the new tank on the Aquasport, did you shop for a tank and adjust your stringer installation to accomodate? Was this a factor in whether to go all the way to the stringers?

Thanks! Q

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:18 am**

Any tank will do as long as it fits between the stringers and under the sole.
We did not search for an original tank, there is probably not such a thing.
We were ready to have one made to our specs when Joel found a tank that did fit in a local marine surplus place.
It's a new one and the price was right.
It doesn't cost much more to have a tank made to your specs.
Check the location of fill, vent and pickups because they stick out. In this case, they are all under the console.
Locate the center of the tank where the previous one was or close.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:53 am**

I was wondering How long this project has taken so far? Realizing that you do this for a living.
Bluefish

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:17 am**

I hope you double clamped all hoses under the hull. I have a friend who has a 23 ft. Sea Pro cuddy that has a fuel leak under the sole. Major expense to repair. They wanted $13,000 to take up hull, replace foam soaked in fuel and repair. He traded in the hull to a dealer . He did tell him the problem and made him sign a waiver sayin he knew about the leak and would not hold him responsible. Bummer.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:42 am**

stickystuff wrote:I hope you double clamped all hoses under the hull. .

Of course.

They are double clamped everywhere, plus there will be an inspection part at every fitting.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:55 am**

Sorry for the stupid question but, where do the scuppers in the deck drain to Joel?

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:18 am**

They drain overboard

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:25 am**

Kidding

The drain will go straight through the bulkhead and out the transom

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:19 am**

Thx Joel. I was looking at the photos couldn't figure out where they went. What did you use for piping them out the stern? Hose? PVC pipe? Would you put a rubber flapper on the end to prevent water getting back into the boat?

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:22 am**

This weekend we started on the temp molds for the deck.....

The molds have the correct camber in them so the deck will flow nice and even all the way up to the bow. We will blank those temp. molds with foam core. Then laminate them in place with Biax and Vinyester. Remove the deck, flip it over and glass the under side. (this is the point were you put in the higher density foam inserts for rod holders, cleats, etc...) The we will glass it (with epoxy) to the hull.

This is a TON of work that you will not need to do if your cap is in good shape. Of course you could still do it if you wanted a on of a king custom look.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:24 am**

Thx Joel. I was looking at the photos couldn't figure out where they went. What did you use for piping them out the stern? Hose? PVC pipe? Would you put a rubber flapper on the end to prevent water getting back into the boat?

Just thru hulls. Will probably use the flapper type. I have not made my mind up 100% on how it will be set up.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:28 pm**

It is at this stage where I would have to plank the deck with mahogany and cut a hole for a rear cockpit and have me one nice Gentleman's Racer!!

Seriously though, does the wood stay in the boat, at least at the edges or is it just for forming a deck surface??

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:41 pm**

i does look funny to have all that mold jut for a 8" wide deck. It will get wider up towards the bow and thats when having all those molds will make her pretty.

The deck will have a shape similar to the Dorado 23 deck, see picture...

http://www.dorado-marine.com/DSC_5828.jpg

But ours will have camber, and I think look better.

There will also be permanent frames to supporting the deck, the ones in the rear will have cut-outs for rod storage.

Posted: **Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:56 pm**

Shine, what would be an estimate of the retail cost of the materials for the transom repair as performed on the aquasport?

thanks, frazoo

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:28 am**

1 sheet of Foam (smaller boat you might be bale to get away with 1/2 sheet)....

http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetai ... cell_E2402

6 gallons of epoxy resin for lamination and glue/putty...

http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetai ... E_kit_6gal

5 lbs of woodflour and 2 bags of silica...

http://boatbuildercentral.com/categorie ... ing&filler

If you outside skin is to be left, then you would have 4 layers of 17 oz. Biax, (2 layers are 45/45 and 2 are 0/90) with the overlaps you probably looking at 12 yards....

http://boatbuildercentral.com/products.php?cat=45

So the retail cost of this boats transom materials would be just under $1,000

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:52 am**

We were able to get a full day of work this weekend, made good progress on the deck.

Using a batten to visually check for the fairness of the deck molds. Deck molds are spaced every 16â€

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:55 am**

I've been watching your progress on the Aquasport while in the initial stages of a similar project (initial stages=grinding hell). I noticed in todays post that you plan on using vinylester on the deck (w/ epoxy secondary bonds). Would vinylester/1708 also be suitable for my boats sole (i.e., sole panels glassed top and bottom w/ vinylester/1708, tabbed to the hull and bonded to stringers utlizing epoxy? The costs of approaching my rebuild would be greatly reduced if this approach were used. (I plan on using epoxy on the transom and stringers, due to what I've learned re: 2nd bond strength). Thanks for all of the great photos and resources, someday, at the end of the grinding (is there an end), I'll start a thread and post some photos. Thanks again!

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:13 pm**

Yes, you can make foam core parts with Vinyester, then glass them in with epoxy. Not the other way around though (vinyester will not stick to epoxy).

If your sole panels are made from wood, then you should use epoxy. Vinyesters do not stick to wood much better than polyester (not good at all).

The savings of using vineyster in foam core panels (vs. plywood epoxy) is lost in the extra fiberglass required for a foam core panel, not to mention the foam core is expensive also.

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:35 pm**

That is a great visual demonstration on how to build out decks on an existing hull. Great work!

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:42 pm**

Cool stuff Joel, you get to have all the fun

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:48 pm**

FLYonWALL9 wrote:Cool stuff Joel, you get to have all the fun

There is plenty fun still left on this boat for anyone who wants it.

Right now we are only able to put 10 to 15 man hours a week

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:31 pm**

I'll take it just ship it up to the return address on
the PG22 plans I sent ya

Posted: **Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:55 pm**

That is a great visual demonstration on how to build out decks on an existing hull. Great work!

A very similar method is used on new boats, for example, the foam superstructure of the VG26 is build that way.

Posted: **Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:12 am**

Underside of deck getting glassed. We used the â€œnegativesâ€

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:56 pm**

Shine,
I am also using NidaCore to re-deck my boat. What did you do to prep the sections of the sole before you glassed them in? Did you join the sections of the sole together before bonding them to the stringers or are they tabbed together on the top side?

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:35 pm**

The sole is three parts each made of two panels. Joint sit on a very wide cleat section. The edges are beveled back and filled with thickened epoxy.

If the joint is not supported underneath with a wide cleat of flange, then you will need to make a fiberglass splice under neither (a couple layers of Biax tape) and bevel the joint on top, then fill with thickened epoxy and fiberglass the top.

I looked, but I do not have a good picture of the joint.

Posted: **Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:08 pm**

Thanks Joel.
I believe the Nidacore I bought from you a while back has 18oz roving on both sides - should I add a layer of cloth over the entire deck for a little more protection, or is it fine as is?

Troy

Posted: **Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:52 pm**

Not completely necessary, but we had scrap - so we added some.

we are making progress again on the boat. Templates for under gunnel rod racks. Due to the low freeboard, there is really only enough room for one rack. Personally, I do not like keeping anything there, save maybe a deck brush.

Templates for the front of the casting deck and the anchor locker are being made now. 2 longitudinal supports will also be under the casting deck "stringer extensions"

I am hoping to see a good boost of progress on the boat over the next few weeks

Posted: **Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:12 am**

we have the front of the casting deck in (frame)

as well as the anchor locker bulkhead. You can see we transfered the deck camber to this part also

Also here are pictures of the small frames/rodholders. Because we used nida core, we must route back in the honeycomb, then fill it with epoxy putty. (the putty is silica, so its difficult to see) Later, we will round this all off with a router bit. Then they get glassed into the hull. I personally do not like under-gunnel rod holders but it might be a good place for a deck brush of landing net

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:14 am**

We are building the casting deck. The longitudinal supports are 1/2" Divinycell with 1708 on each side, they are taped into the boat with 12 oz biax and epoxy.

This picture shows the supports just tabbed into place. We next make a fillet, let it tack up, then come right back "wet on wet" with the biax tape and marinepoxy.

I know its overkill, but the supports are double taped (offset seams)......

Here are the two pieces that will be the casting deck....

Here the top skin of the casting deck has been laminated. Again its over kill, but we went with 2 layers 1708 for top skin. Bottom skin will be just one. The great thing about using composites (foam core/honeycomb/epoxy) is that you don't mind adding extra weight in strategic places, because you have saved weight in others.

In other words I would rather have added weight in fuel capacity/bait well capacity, and thicker deck skins

We also are working on a mold for drain channels that will make our hatches waterproof. Its something will eventually sell - this is something that will save a lot of time.

Joel

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:18 am**

i"m glad Joel insist on saying that it is overkill because it really is. However, despite all that, this boat will be lighter than when it came out of the factory.
Lighter but stronger and stiffer thanks to the quality of the materials.

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:02 am**

shine wrote:
We also are working on a mold for drain channels that will make our hatches waterproof. Its something will eventually sell - this is something that will save a lot of time.

I've seen people do that sort of thing with PVC, on the edged of the floor/deck/sole (whatever). I couldn't figure out how to do it on hatches without an immense expenditure of time and $$... so I gave up. I can't wait to see what y'all come up with.

Its looking great!!!!!!!!!

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:26 am**

Is it similar to what Doug built for his Phantom?

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:27 am**

I couldn't figure out how to do it on hatches without an immense expenditure of time and $$... so I gave up.

I know, I was looking for a place to buy it myself

So if we invest some time and $$ into the mold, then we can produce them and sell them to recoup the investment.

With labor and materials they will not be cheap - but they will be less than everyone making their own mold.

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:52 am**

If you go to pages 12 and 13 of this thread you can see where somebody made their own hatch: http://www.classicseacraft.com/forum/sh ... o=&fpart=1

Posted: **Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:48 pm**

I know, I was looking for a place to buy it myself

So if we invest some time and $$ into the mold, then we can produce them and sell them to recoup the investment.

With labor and materials they will not be cheap - but they will be less than everyone making their own mold.

How will you do it so that you can use them for any size hatch.... or was that even part of the plan?

I cant wait till y'all come out with t-top plans and a free standing baitwell plan.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:22 am**

I was thinking the same thing, make a mold of the hatch rim and then talking you guys into selling it be the foot. You could just miter the ends and follow up with some glass under each miter. I have already started to make a mold for myself.

That is a great idea.

You would need to employ an extra lip so there could be two mounting choices. Say you want to mount to a bulkhead or the deck. If you mount to the deck then just cut off the extra lip.

Cool.

Posted: **Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:26 am**

That's the idea: miter the corners. Joel is working on the mold as I write this. he will keep you up to date but let him work on it.

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 4:21 pm**

I am on the edge of my seat. Any progress on those hatch lip things?

Good luck,

and

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 4:29 pm**

I take some pictures, but I do not like my mold. I am going to order some UHMWPE and make a super clean mold with the router

Posted: **Wed May 16, 2007 9:20 am**

The casting deck is down, and we are fitting the deck. Next we have to build the coming, cut a few more hatches (transom and anchor locker), then its glassing in the console and leaning post.

Posted: **Thu May 17, 2007 10:57 am**

Gluing up strip of 1/2" Renicell foam to make long coaming strips for gunnels. Aluminum straight edges keep parts fair - very important for gunnels! We keep a few aluminum extrusions around for straight edges, they are the inexpensive screen porch parts from the home store.

Used the sander to make recess so the the fiberglass joint is level with foam - keeps fairing to a minimum.

Use plastic to keep the epoxy off your tools and a clean/flat surface

Posted: **Thu May 17, 2007 2:16 pm**

I can't tell you how long I spent trying to think of an easy way to do that... of course, I have no idea what Renicell is.

Posted: **Thu May 17, 2007 2:27 pm**

Old E. wrote:I have no idea what Renicell is.

It the same foam as what we used in the transom. Its a high density foam. It machines and it stiffer than H80 divinycell. So the idea is that we will let that nice stiff foam "batten" define the shear nicely.

Right now we are cutting out the coming curve at the bow. There will be a hole for the anchor locker, but it will be faired into the casting deck. The top of the deck will be clean - just a pop up cleat. It should look very pretty.

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2007 10:24 am**

more progress, slow as it is....

Routed out the edges of the hatches and covers, then fill with thickened epoxy. You must do this with foam core and nida-core to keep the edges from compressing.

We glassed the casting deck to the sides....

This is a video clip of taping down the casting deck....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6BIr0Kq0Bs

We also glassed the front of the casting deck to the casting deck frame.

The coaming is made, we just have to secure it to the deck. Then we clean it up with the router, then glass it to the deck. The deck is not secured (glassed down yet) we want to use the coaming as a sort of big faring batten - to ge the lines right and pretty to the eye. Then the entire deck and coaming will be glassed together and become one piece!

Posted: **Fri May 25, 2007 9:44 pm**

nice job on the boat and the videos. The videos will be very helpful for first timers.

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 12:32 pm**

Ditto on the videos, very helpful. Might want to add a link from the how to section.

Posted: **Thu May 31, 2007 2:13 pm**

making a foam core "box" to hide the fuel fill and vent hose running up the gunnels......

cut the foam to shape - this is H80 Divinycell 1/2"

use finish nails or tooth picks to hold it to shape (in more critical parts you would take more care for squareness)

make a fillet on the inside (epoxy/woodflour fillet)

working "wet on wet", lay glass into part (fillet is still tacky). we just used scrap cloth on the inside and then scrap 17 oz Biax ont he out side

After the inside glass stiffened up, we turn it over, remove nails

, round the corner of the foam using a Stanly sureform plane, then glass the outside skin. Also added some fairing after the out side tacked up. And here you have your box....

Posted: **Thu May 31, 2007 8:55 pm**

i just bought a 1976 chrysler 21' center console sport fisherman
i am starting to perform the work on it saturday june 1/ 07 please if you can help me in anyway it would really be appreciated
i am going to cut the flooring up and replace it because it is soft in alot of areas so my question is how do i know where to start also the transome looks like it is in very good condition the guy i bought it from said that he had used the boat last year and everything is ok but the flooring needs to be fixed please if anyone knows anythig about chrysler boats or has any specs or plans on this boat please contact me or email me some info where to start and how to start
i also want to add some washdown pumps should i put them thru the back part of the hull or thru the transome

phone - (718) 316-2719 email - mountaintile@aol.com
thank you so much and please feel free to contact me asap anytime
thanks pete

Posted: **Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:40 pm**

Anonymous wrote: phone - (718) 316-2719 email - mountaintile@aol.com
thank you so much and please feel free to contact me asap anytime
thanks pete

Please read this...

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=13371

We are happy to help, but it must be done over this forum.

joel

Posted: **Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:45 pm**

made a bunch of 90 degree composite brackets. they are made from 12 oz Biax tape and scrap transom foam ......

They have come in very handy. I used them to secure the deck to the sides of the boat and to the frames - Very stiff.....

Posted: **Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:06 pm**

Nice, did you cut the foam on a saw, and then tape it in?

Posted: **Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:49 am**

yes, the foam it scrap transom foam (super high density). We cut a lot of angles strips with the table saw, then used them as a core and glass taped on each side in a 90 degree plastic mold. Which produced a long piece of this...

You can see we used these on the hull to deck and also frame to deck. They stiffen up the deck quite a bit (you could almost walk on the deck after we glued them up). They are holding the deck in the correct position so that we can begin working on glassing the deck to the side of the hull

Posted: **Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:09 am**

Here you can see those composite braces at work under the deck - holding the deck to the frames and the sides.

with the deck held in place, we can begin shaping the hull to deck joint. The foam core of the deck is ground back a little, then we use some thin plywood (any cheap door skin/luan works) covered in packing tape (quick and easy mold release) to make a shaped fillet on the outside.

We used screws to hold the mold in place. pilot holes will keep the glass from cracking. The thin plywood will conform to the shape of the hull resulting in a clean extension of the lines up to the top of the deck level.

So now we have a clean angle. We will next run the router around the outside with a 1/2" round over bit to make a nice turn for the biax tape (you could also use a surform or sanding block if you dont have a router). We will use 2 layers of 12 oz biax tape for our outside hull/deck joint

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:13 am**

Wow you guys do nice work!

I can't tell you how much I wish I'd have found this site BEFORE I did so much work to my boat.

I've done most of it as you'd recommend, but something's I'd have done differently - but it's too late now.

The worst part is the amount of time I spent thinking and re thinking and thinking some more about how to do each step - you guys could have set me up with the right cloth, right epoxy, lamination schedule, and I've likely saved several months of headaches!

This site ROCKS!

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:54 am**

shine wrote:yes, the foam it scrap transom foam (super high density). We cut a lot of angles strips with the table saw, then used them as a core and glass taped on each side in a 90 degree plastic mold. Which produced a long piece of this...

You can see we used these on the hull to deck and also frame to deck. They stiffen up the deck quite a bit (you could almost walk on the deck after we glued them up). They are holding the deck in the correct position so that we can begin working on glassing the deck to the side of the hull

Could you possibly take a picture of the mold?

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:58 am**

here is the "mold" ....

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:26 pm**

Will you be cutting an "access" to the fuel tank in the deck to facilitate it's removal say, I don't know....20 years from now?

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:33 pm**

Q wrote:Will you be cutting an "access" to the fuel tank in the deck to facilitate it's removal say, I don't know....20 years from now?

There are holes for 2 deck plates, one over the fill/vent and another over the sender unit.

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:10 pm**

shine wrote:here is the "mold" ....

THanks, that helps alot. It almost looks like some plastic roof railing

Posted: **Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:22 pm**

its a plastic fence post ripped in half, not a perfect mold but good enough for a few pulls

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:02 pm**

I just looked through this thread for the first time, great tutorial on so many different areas. Very helpful and you guys are doing a phenomenal job on this boat. I have one question, why did you decide to cut the entire transom out when replacing/re-coring it rather than leaving the original outer skin cleaning it up and bedding the core into it? I may have to do the same thing on my restoration and just wanted to know the logic behind that decision. Thanks again for an awesome tutorial.
Donny

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:34 pm**

dpurcell wrote:I have one question, why did you decide to cut the entire transom out when replacing/re-coring it rather than leaving the original outer skin cleaning it up and bedding the core into it?

The outside skin was rotten and cracked, otherwise we would have kept it. If it would have bee even in decent shape, you just lay some new glass and reinforce the old outside skin. But, this one was too far gone

Today we glassed the rest of the hull to deck. Im thinking of doing something special with the hull/deck to show it off. This boat will have a perfect clean radius hull/deck - seamless, so I hate to cover that up with a big bulky rubrail (like they do in production boats) Maybe just a stainless steal profile. any ideas?

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:09 pm**

shine wrote: Today we glassed the rest of the hull to deck. Im thinking of doing something special with the hull/deck to show it off. This boat will have a perfect clean radius hull/deck - seamless, so I hate to cover that up with a big bulky rubrail (like they do in production boats) Maybe just a stainless steal profile. any ideas?

The stainless will be nice Joel but how practical? I guess it depends on how you see the boat being used, bumping off of pilings and docks etc. I'm guessing some sort of accent brightwork is out of the question eh?

Posted: **Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:58 am**

shine wrote: ....., so I hate to cover that up with a big bulky rubrail (like they do in production boats) Maybe just a stainless steal profile. any ideas?

How well do you pilot around the docks?

I agree it will look very good without the clunky tug boat hemp bumbers. Question is for how long?

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:00 am**

They do make some somewhat stylish rubrail in different colors, now. I was going to go this route with the Robalo eventually...to match the T-top canvas.

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:49 am**

JimW wrote: How well do you pilot around the docks?

The near complete absence of tidal flow in the Indian River make us all look pretty good at the dock

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:19 am**

Growing up near Tampa I was spoiled with nice easy tides. When I came here and started boating it blew me away that the creeks all swelled and dumped twice each day to the tune of 6 or 7 feet!

I guess you can only fit so much water through sebastian inlet.

Posted: **Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:35 pm**

Try the bristol channel with 30 ft range on a neap tide.opened my eyes i'll tell you.

Posted: **Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:18 pm**

coming in place. It held true by dry wall screws, until we "tack weld" with epoxy. Then a fillet, then glass it to the deck.

The back side has been glassed already, so it gave the part some stiffness and allowed it to sit fair - a straight edge clamped also helped.

Its coming along now. The only thing that has to be "made" now is the hatch drain channels. I am unhappy with the first run of these, so we are going to make a mold for a better shape.

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Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

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Re: !

Motor Bulkhead

How much time?

vinylester suitable for sole?

Great Thread

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Wet on wet

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mold type

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"

Re: Aquasport Rebuild - Classic "Flatback"