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Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:38 pm
by gstanfield
I thought I would share my misery with others in the hopes to save someone some trouble on down the line. Around here I have two choices for marine plywood.

#1. I drive 500 miles round trip to buy BS1088 Meranti Hydrotec ply

#2. I pay to have it shipped 2,000 miles from Florida

Neither of which are ideal, but in the future I will be going with one of those two. Here's why....I bought the best exterior plywood I could find locally and still had to drive 70 miles round trip to get to the nearest lumber yard for it. The wood was about $25 a sheet and actually looked reasonably good for what it was. It had very few voids in it and the ones that I found were small. I figured it would work just fine for a FL14 seeing as how it's a displacement boat that will get used mostly for drifting down river or use on the lake with a trolling motor. Well, after 11 months here is what it looks like:
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The ply was coated with three coats of epoxy and thankfully I fully glassed the bottom. The interior oddly enough looks very good, but the outside has these places all over where it's coming apart literally. I'll probably fix them, but I'm half determined to just grab the ol Stihl chainsaw and have a few minutes of fun. I'll probably build a new boat first though and keep using this one until either my new boat is splashed or this one sinks :lol:

Oh well, live and learn. I just wanted to share with others to hopefully answer a few of the "can I use cheap plywood" questions :wink:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:51 pm
by TomW
I feel for you George! :(

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:58 pm
by Crazy Terry
Thank you George:

Thank you for taking the time to take those pictures and posting them. I almost went with a cheaper alternative ply myself. I am very glad that I listened to the advise that the pros gave me and went with meranti. It is awfully big of you to admit your mistake and to post it for all to see. So that others could be spared this disappointment as well.

The true stature of man can be measured not by his wealth. But by his willingness to admit his faults and mistakes. You are a man of great stature.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:44 pm
by Spokaloo
George, no biggie man, you've got all the skills needed to fix it. Just tear the bad wood apart, patch it up with a little milled glass and epoxy, lay a little glass if needed, and get her back to work!

No big thing, fix and move ahead!

E

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:19 pm
by gstanfield
For sure Eric, and you're welcome Terry. I didn't post that looking for sympathy or anything like that. i posted it so that people would have a visual as to why they need to go with good plywood.

It's an easy fix, as Eric said. I'm just not certain how much more time I want to invest in this boat. It's a good little boat and I like it for what it is, but I'm building a larger boat for the family and a smaller boat for when it's just me so I'll probably just do a quick fix and use it for now without worries. The registration is good for 3 more years so why not :wink:

Oh, I forgot to mention there's about a hundred spots like that so the fix would be a bit time consuming, but not hard.

Again I just wanted to post it as a reference for future builders who want to go the cheap way. In all honesty the inside looks fine it only split o the outsides where the curve was pulling it apart and a thin layer of glass would have fixed that. I'll probably use cheap wood on some of my future "toy" builds, but never on a serious boat 8)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:46 pm
by Crazy Terry
[quote="gstanfield"]For sure Eric, and you're welcome Terry. I didn't post that looking for sympathy or anything like that. i posted it so that people would have a visual as to why they need to go with good plywood.

Sorry George.

My intent was not to express sympathy. My intent was and is to express gratitude for your willingness to admit an error in order to save others from the same mistake. Thank you for that.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:49 pm
by gstanfield
Worry not my friend, I didn't take it that way. I was just wanting to express my reason for posting :wink: You owe me no apology 8)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:14 pm
by Prarie Dog
Tough break George. That ply was probably made from those windblown trees up there. That last bend was one too many :(

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:50 am
by fishingdan
Thanks for posting this. It is a good example of "checking". People often ask what this is and it is tough to visualize without seeing it. Once people see it, they recognize it immediately.

Best practices based on this example:
- Use a BS1088 stamped ply for your boat even if you have to order it/ship it from elsewhere. There is a premium cost to this, but once one sees and work with these products, they get it. They are worth every penny during the building phase as well as long-term use in the boat. As a % of total boat cost, it really doesn't add that much more to go this route. Meranti is an excellent choice.
- It used to be that one could find decent exterior ply and use it for a smaller boat, but the ply available today locally is usually only suited for home building tasks.
- If you find decent exterior play or go with marine "fir", you need to apply glass cloth to all surfaces. This adds weight and cost, but one will experience checking over time if this step is not taken. A simple 4oz or 6oz cloth applied to the surface will stabilize the surface in most cases and add some puncture resistance to the surface. This cloth is not the structural biaxial used as a specific structural component of these composite boats. A light woven cloth is very easy to apply and is nearly invisible after it cures. The weave is also very easily filled and often fills with a coat of epoxy.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:00 pm
by Steven
The real fix would be to take all not glassed wood down to epoxy and then add a light fiberglass cloth. I built the Cheap Canoe out of exterior to learn the methods. Its started just like in your picture with a few spots. I sanded down and filled them and repainted. Waste of time. It just goes on and on and on. Now it's a yard toy for the kids. Great bottom that is glassed, but all non glassed areas are chock full of checks. Great post.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:27 pm
by gk108
No matter how good it looks on the outside, exterior sheathing grade plywood will never have the same quality of glue layer between the plies. It's not made for any kind of bending and is engineered to rely on the nails used during construction to help hold the plies together. That's fine for covering a stick built house with a 2x4 frame, but totally unsuitable for any monocoque applications, like these boats, where the plywood is part of the main load bearing structure. You must have 100% glue coverage. If George picks at that crack in the bottom picture, he'll probably find a delaminated spot larger than the crack, with glue coverage that looks like freckles, but it still meets that sheathing grade specification. The freckles of glue probably failed in shear the first time the plywood was bent around his frames.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:18 pm
by rjezuit
I used BS1088 on my FL14 and it still checked. Ended up sanding down to the epoxy and covering the whole thing with 6 oz. glass. That fixed it for good.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:24 pm
by ks8
Even marine fir will check, and some cheap pine. My boat is BCX and ACX. Not one hint of problems after ??? 9 years? But *everything* has a layer of glass. Well, except two very small areas that I keep a vigilant eye on. Don't think I ever want to do that again on a design that doesn't require it. Lots of extra time, expense, weight. I'm well sold now on BS1088 Meranti or Okoume for anything I expect to last and bear any serious loads. I may still proto some fun ideas in bcx, just to test the panel development and waterline and handling, but without expectations of any sort of durability. I think bondo made cheap plywood templates for just about everything for his AD14, but the boat itself is some beautiful wood. 8) Thanks for that post George. :)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:53 am
by chicagoross
I'm starting a third year of use in the tropics (high heat and humidity) saltwater use only, the HMD made of exterior philippine mahogany ply still looks great. the inside from chine up, and the pilothouse and roof, are not glassed, just epoxy coated prior to several coats of rustoleum marine paint. I know that is not what you get stateside for mahogany ply at HD or Lowes, which is junk. I did do pretty serious quality inspections all through the build to make sure I wasn't putting in a bad piece of ply.

Caught a few tuna trolling out of it Sunday!

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:01 am
by topwater
Ross how about some pic's :!: Its been two years and it is sure nice to see the boats in there element.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:43 am
by gstanfield
as Ross pointed out there is a huge difference in what you get based on your location. I always assumed that everything in the continental US would be the same, but boy was I wrong. When I moved to Wyoming I bought a house that needed some fixing up. My first trip to Home Depot was shocking! Same big name store as back home, but the quality was nothing compared to the lumber we could buy in Georgia. Ever since then I have been having to get used to the fact that wood products in Wyoming are terrible regardless of what store you go to. In Casper there are 5 lumber yards/home improvement stores and 3-1/2 of them are junk as far as I'm concerned. Menards has some good stuff and some bad depending and Pro Build has the best in town (still not great), but the prices reflect that of course.

I guess my point is that there is more to wood shopping than just going in the store and buying the most expensive sheet of plywood they have and assuming you have good stuff. You might have to shop around to find decent wood or you might find yourself in Wyoming and nothing good is to be had at which point you drive to Denver 250 miles away to buy marine plywood :lol:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:24 pm
by Nanate
I was thinking of going with Lauan at about $19 a sheet. Is that good wood for here in central Mississippi? It gets hot and humid and cold and wet here. I might put the layer of glass on the all of the wood just because I do want this boat to last as along as it can. I am very ready to get started building this boat but not going to rush it. Getting all the info I can before starting! Thanks!

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:27 pm
by gstanfield
Luan can be good, or it can be terrible, it just depends. There is some underlayment stuff that several people swear by that is about the same price, but much higher quality. It's called ultraply if my memory serves and I've used it and would use it again. I'd still put a layer of thin glass on it, but I would do that with marine ply too :wink:

What boat are you building?

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:02 pm
by Nanate
The FL14. Sorry. I started the thread Thursday on the Resins, glass, paint section. You gave me the link to this thread which brought up this question of the wood.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:18 pm
by gstanfield
I remembered after I posted who you were :oops: For the FL14 I'd probably use the heavier exterior grade instead of the luan, especially if it'll be on a trailer. I use the underlayment (better luan) on small projects, but on a boat this size I'd go heavier myself. If you can afford good quality plywood then by all means do it. Marine ply will only add about a $100-$150 to the cost of this build and the results will last you much much longer.

Sometimes $150 is the difference between building and dreaming though, I know this all too well. Just think about it and be honest with yourself.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:45 pm
by Nanate
I'll try to pick back up tomorrow to find out what you mean by heavier exterier grade. Don't have internet at the house & I'm about to leave work. I don't mind spending a little extra up front if it saves trouble for later.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:56 pm
by gstanfield
What I mean is an exterior grade A/B or A/C plywood instead of the luan (or underlayment). The luan types tend to be thinner and lighter than the "exterior grade" woods. If you can find a source for marine plywood you could probably build it from meranti 6566 for $100 more than cheap home depot lumber and the quality would be much better.

Again, I understand the concept of saving money. When I initially built this FL14 I had to sell stuff to get the money to build it. I had $0 extra laying around. I also see the cost of saving money every time I look at my boat now, but it was either skimp and save or dream about building.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:39 pm
by wej
You being in Mississippi should be able to find some marine plywood reasonably close, George & I are up the creek when it comes to finding "good" plywood close to our locations.

I will have mine shipped in from Joel next time, I won't even use decent "marine" fir plywood as it has cost me in time & epoxy multiple times.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:44 pm
by gstanfield
I found out that one of the building supply companies in Casper (nearest actual city, 36 miles away) sells marine plywood in some of their stores. The nice thing is that means they can get it at their Casper store, but it has to be special order. It comes from the same place as their other wood though so there is no extra shipping charges and it usually gets there within a couple of weeks. This is huge news to me because the other option before was driving 500 miles round trip to buy it in Denver or spend several hundred dollars getting it shipped to me.

George

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:03 am
by Nanate
I'll have to call around today and check on marine grade and exterier grades. I was wanting to go with the lauan at first because I was told it is good for exterier and it feels lighter than other plywood and I would like to keep this boat pretty light. I do a lot of poling over water hyacinth and other top water vegitations and the lighter the better. I didn't even plan on putting a skeg on it to keep the drag down when on vegitations.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:19 pm
by gstanfield
mine has no skeg, no keel just a flat bottom so it spins faster when using it as a drift boat. I have a pic somewhere of me driftin across gravel bars with the water about 3" deep and the bottom was not scraping :!: This one was in about 5" of water, but it's the one I could find quickest :wink:

Image

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:05 pm
by Nanate
Wow that's some clean water! It's probably cold too! Here's the area that I'll be using my boat in the most. I put in at the little boat ramp that you can see on the dirt road on the left. There's lots of stumps and the grass is thick which is why I want it to be as light as I can get it. And I have also read on here that glass adds more weight than a little bit heavier wood. There sure is a lot to think about before building the first boat! Called around for marine ply and one store had it but only in 1/2 and 3/4. Next I'll check prices on exteriers.
Well, I was going to post a picture but don't have a clue how......

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:29 pm
by gstanfield
You have to have the picture hosted somewhere online (the gallery here will work) then right click on it and select "properties" then highlight and copy the URL to the picture's address. Then in your thread click the "Img" tab and paste the URL between the sets of brackets.

If that complicates it too much just e-mail me the picture and I'll post it for you :D

The water is pretty nice in the fall, but springtime it is violent and dirty from all the snow melt runoff (mud) I built my Fl14 VERY HEAVY with all my additions and use of heavy plywood and extra glass, heavy anchor, 250ft of anchor line, 10ft anchor chain, dual deep cycle batteries, cooler of beer, etc, etc and it still drafts about 3" with just me and about 4-1/2" with two adults in it. I doubt you will have any issues with your boat, nor should you get too concerned over saving 5-10lbs on plywood in my opinion.

Not that it hurts to build it light, but I think if you built it as per plans this boat would sit a half inch above the water when empty :wink:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:34 pm
by Nanate
Maybe this?....
Image
If this works, this is the area I tried to post. Didn't know it would show up on the main galleries page....

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:40 pm
by Nanate
That sounds very good. I didn't realize this boat would be that light and float that high in the water. Especially above the water! I guess I'll look for some good a/b plywood since I can't find the marine. Is the a/b exterier grade pine or what? And by the way, I've heard of stealing threads. I didn't do that did I? We're talking about good woods to build with so thought this was still related.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:46 pm
by gstanfield
No worries about hijacking the thread. It's my thread and I don't mind :wink:

Also, I might have exaggerated a bit, I doubt the boat will float above the water, but it'll float plenty shallow trust me on that. I fish the Platte River from pretty much the time it thaws until it freezes over again and during the low water times I drag the bottom every trip, however the water is basically running across the gravel when I do that, not enough to really measure. With about 2-3 inches of water I may scrape the high spots on the gravel bars, but I still float on across them. The only time I've ever gotten stuck on the gravel the water was about 1-1/2" deep and nothing is going to float on that really. :wink:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:18 pm
by Nanate
Dude I would love to fish the Platte River! What all kind of fish do you catch? I want to do some good trout fishing but It'll be a long time before I can fish the Platte. I have a lot better chance fishing the White River. So as for the tech stuff, I will probably stick with some a/b exterier grade if I can't find the marine anywhere. Hey thanks for all the help. I have to get going for the day now. We have lots of bad weather & my wife had to run back in the school she teaches at when the radio said a funnel cloud was headed her way. Now I think it's safe for her to leave and I need to get home before it gets bad again. More weather about church time tonight. We have more to pray about in prayer meeting...... :help:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:32 pm
by gstanfield
The Platte runs about 2 miles from my house so I fish it a lot, but this section near me isn't nearly as good as some parts of it (The famous Miracle Mile is 65 miles away)

Anyway, I mostly catch Rainbows, but some other trout as well, some really nice size catfish about 10 miles away below the power plant and occasionally the lost walleye that decided to swim upstream, but that doesn't happen often thankfully (they are rough on the trout)

Have a good night, stay safe, enjoy church and I'll chat with you tomorrow. BTW, I have a standing invitation for anyone who wants to come on out and do some fishing :wink:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:31 pm
by wej
You mean the White River that runs through my back yard???

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:04 pm
by cape man
We have lots of bad weather & my wife had to run back in the school she teaches at when the radio said a funnel cloud was headed her way. Now I think it's safe for her to leave and I need to get home before it gets bad again. More weather about church time tonight. We have more to pray about in prayer meeting......
Nanate. You guys make it through the storms okay? Ugly stuff in the south yesterday and last night.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:24 pm
by wej
George I have a trash can that has 20 and a half inches of rain in it since last Thursday

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:30 pm
by gstanfield
8O Wow :!: In that same time we've gotten about 3 inches of snow and about 3 inches of rain :lol:

I'm from Georgia though so I remember the days when it would rain for a week straight

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:02 am
by wej
We didn't get 20 inches, the trash can was beside my truck & a retaining wall so it got some extra splash, we still had to have gotten 16 inches or better though.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:09 am
by Nanate
Hey guys. Thanks - cape man. We're ok here. Yeah it was a lot of really bad stuff. Lots of prayers needed. We didn't get so much of it where we're at. It was a little south of where my wife teaches at and didn't get to bad at my house. George - sounds like you went from one extreme to another! I would really love to visit the Rockies again. Went to CO last July and wanted to make run to Cheyenne just to say I went to WY but we didn't get to. :(

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:59 am
by gstanfield
Well thank God you guys are OK,, we were worried.

As to the Rockies, come on out. There are many good places to fish, I'll even meet you for some fishing if you can only get allmost here. I sure don't mind driving a couple hundred miles for some fishing and fellowshipping :wink:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 9:31 pm
by gunslinger
I read that maranti can do this as well. Would it not be better to use good grade fir and just put cloth over the whole hull outside ?

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 11:32 pm
by Alabamajon
Meranti 1088 will not rot like fir if it is damaged. Meranti won't normally check. Meranti also weighs about 2/3 of the weight of fir.

I'm new on the forum but have built some small GF12 style boats, used fir on some used Meranti 1088 on others what ever we could get for the BS group. It's been 10 yrs since I was involved and the Meranti boats are still alive the fir boats died a while ago. Oh, well take your choice.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:15 pm
by gunslinger
You said that so well I may use Meranti as well and may also cloth the outside of the hull.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:25 pm
by gunslinger
And is it really why we use good plywood or why we put cloth over the complete hull outside ? From what I read either will work ? If Meranti rots as well it just takes a little longer looks like to me. Im not saying Meranti is no good and I think I will use it as well but it seems putting cloth over the complete hull outside will do the same job and stop checking.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:59 pm
by Steven
gunslinger wrote:And is it really why we use good plywood or why we put cloth over the complete hull outside ? From what I read either will work ? If Meranti rots as well it just takes a little longer looks like to me. Im not saying Meranti is no good and I think I will use it as well but it seems putting cloth over the complete hull outside will do the same job and stop checking.

Yes, if you glass all of the fir it will stop the checking. I have a Cheap Canoe I built with fir just to test the building technigue. I glassed the bottom for abrasion resistence. After 8+ years the bottom is in perfect shape. Every other inch of the boat has checks. Fir takes a signifigant amount more expoxy for glassing than meranti. It soaks up twice as much IMO. So you will end up a boat that will be signifigantly heavier and really not cost any less.

I had to use a piece on the OB19 i'm building for the rear deck. It's glassed both sides I used it in because I came up short a piece and there is no where close I can get a sheet of meranti. So it can have it's uses.

In the end, use what you feel comfortable with and build on. A fir boat fully glassed will still make a fine boat that will last a long, long time.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:11 pm
by Hope2float
Hey guys
The plywood should be meranti, but it will check as well even if you coat with epoxy primer and paint. Cover all exposed surfaces with at least 4oz this will prevent a repair after your nice paint job. i have first hand experience with this. You can also check Copros p21 thread. He had the same problem and suggests the same.
Dave

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:53 am
by thb
These pictures are similar to how my FL12 looked after sitting in the hot sun for about 12 months. Only the south facing side had the paint flaking up and it only occurred on the portions of the outer side panel which had no epoxy and glass covering the bare wood. Mine was Meranti BS1088 or BS6566 and had blue water grey primer and black mega gloss gold paint. Not sure if other paints would have done the same thing but reading this post, it seems likely.
Sanded all the black off the other day and will coat the sides with 6 oz cloth and epoxy and paint again in a light color.
Tom in Steinhatchee :)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:07 am
by wrightsa
George, your original post stated you glassed the bottom. As a newb who's having real problems getting 1/4" marine grade ply for my first CC or NC, I am wondering if you glassed the the hull where you experienced checking?

In my case, it is looking more and more like the most feasible thing for me to do is to go with a premium underlayment and use a 3.25 or 4 oz glass on the entire hull. My hopes would be to learn the process and get several years of use, not just a season or two. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:19 am
by gstanfield
The areas with the issues were not glassed. In fact, the places with the glass has held up like a tank to repeated abuse, being dragged literally hundred of yards across gravel beds (10 yds at a time) and it's still looking like new. I just had her flipped to repaint and couldn't find any bad places on the bottom.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:24 pm
by wrightsa
Your willingness to share your experience has been very helpful. Thanks.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:21 am
by gstanfield
No problem, that's what this forum is all about. Most folks on here have built boats and/or been around them long enough to have some experience. Several guys on here know a lot more about it this stuff than I do, but I'm happy to share the things that I do know about. :wink: If I don't know or have no experience in the matter I'll just keep my mouth shut 8)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:30 am
by gk108
wrightsa wrote:In my case, it is looking more and more like the most feasible thing for me to do is to go with a premium underlayment and use a 3.25 or 4 oz glass on the entire hull. My hopes would be to learn the process and get several years of use, not just a season or two. Any thoughts? Thanks!
That's about what I did with my Cheapie. Made it with luaun and glassed the whole thing. It's heavy, but tough. :wink:

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood!!!

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:44 pm
by gstanfield
OK. here's an update six months later. I went it with a dremel and widened the grooves of all of those places form page one, filled them all with epoxy/woodflour and repainted. Those areas still look nice, however the rest of the boat is falling apart terribly. :cry: Here's pics from today:

Image
Image
Image
Image

And those are just a few areas, the entire boat is like that, all except the flat surfaces with white paint (and still no glass??) Anyway, next week I'm taking her out for one last glorious fishing trip and then she comes home for a strip down, chain saw diet plan and trip to the landfill. I'm not too sad about the loss of the baot as I learned a lot with this build and as soon as I get back in GA I will be building a new boat along with a strip canoe. With the sales of our house here I am going to squirrel away the funds for a future build.....

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:50 am
by stickystuff
There is nothing wrong with useing marine fir. I built my PH 16 with it back in 1993. I had it for almost 9 years and had absolutely no problems with it.I glassed it totally with 12 oz. bi/ax inside and out and coated every thing with epoxy. Prep it right and it will outlast any fiberglass boat out there. 8O :? :D

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:23 pm
by gstanfield
:wink:
I glassed it totally with 12 oz. bi/ax inside and out
That's the key Ken, but I simply followed the plans and used the amount of fiberglass specified, although I did add a layer of 10oz on the bottom for abrasion resistance. With enough glass an epoxy almost any core would work. My thread here is ismply an effort to help folks avoid the dissapointment of using the best exterior ply they can find and then having to cut apart their boat and haul it off to the dump two years later :wink:

Image

If only I had listened to Cracker Larry when I started this build. :cry: Oh well, no harm really I learned a lot in building this boat, caught a ton of fish from it and now that I'm moving It would not be the ideal boat for my new location anyway. Plus I have the added benefit of not having to haul an extra trailer 1600 miles as now I can use this trailer to put my bike on. Then I get to christen our new house by starting a new boat build as soon as we get moved in :D

All in all I'm actually quite happy now! It does suck that the boat died so soon, but it was built as a learning experience and it served that purpose extrememly well :wink:

EDIT TO ADD: In no way does the result here reflect on the quality of plans sold here, this building method or bateau.com in general. It is actually a reflection of what happens when people ignore good advice provided here on the forum and decide they know better than the guys who designed these things and the guys who have actually built some of the boats from plans sold here.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:32 pm
by Larry B
Image

George, I think a bit of glass and epoxy, some fairing you could put that back together again :lol: I give my FL14 to a guy here in AZ, I used merianti 1088 and glassed the bottom and. Yep use the correct materials and these boats will last forever.
Thanks for all the info you provided on this build. Sounds like things are going good on the sale of your house and getting another one in Georgia. :D Good luck on your move.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm
by wegcagle
Dang George,

She sure was a nice little boat though 8) Personally I liked the picture of you floating over about 2-3 inches of water in her (couldn't find that picture).

And of course it's always awesome to see the family digging the boat. :D

Image

Where in Georgia are you moving? Where you able to line up a new job?

Will

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:52 pm
by gstanfield
Will, I'll be up in NE Georgia most likely in Rabun County, possible Stephens County (where I'm from) I have several promising job potentials and one positive promise of a job so it'll work out one way or another. 8)

She was a godo little boat and one day I'm going to build another FL14 for fishing the electric only lakes :D

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:23 pm
by wegcagle
That's beautiful country up there. I've got a lot of inlaws in that area. I think a boat like the FL14 could be a good float boat for all of the trout streams in the area. Good luck with the move. Looks like you'll beat me home yet :D

Will

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:50 pm
by Prarie Dog
George, sorry to see your boat go this route. When you started talking about the chain saw I didn't take it seriously, well that was a mistake. :doh: Did you shoot it a couple of times before the saw job? :D

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:11 pm
by gstanfield
No guns were involved :lol:

My Dad asked me why I cut it up and I told him that curiosity got the best of me and I just had to know if any water made it into the floatation chambers I built into it front and back. The answer is NO, they were both dry as can be :D

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:53 pm
by tobolamr
That was one sad picture, by the way, seeing it all cut up... :cry:

So were all of the defects cosmetic? Or was there any water infiltration?

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:59 pm
by gstanfield
No leakage yet, but the checks were getting deep enough that the core would be coming apart in no time at all. In one spot I punched the hull and it cracked all the way through to the inside, yet I didn't hit it hard enough to hurt my knuckles so...it was getting very weak 8O

The fix would have been to comepletely grind away all the paint down to good wood, epoxy and glass it and repaint. Basically that would have involved more work than it takes to build it from scratch and you'd still be left wondering how much of the core had been compromised. So in short it was not worth repairing :wink:

I took about a dozen pics of it, I'll post up a couple of the close up shots so you can see the wood coming apart.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:05 pm
by gstanfield
You can see here that the core was looking pretty decent around the bottom where it was fully glassed:

Image

however the sides were just coming apart terribly:
Image

This was the best exterior wood I could find in Casper, WY but even with three coats of epoxy it still wasn't good enough. I'm certain it would have worked fine with even a light 4 or 6 oz woven cloth over the entire thing and next time I will fully glass it even with good plywood. This will be the last boat I ever have to cut up after I build it 8)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:49 am
by JohnC
Hey George,
Just wanted to thank you for posting this thread. I recently purchased plans for the FL14 and was planning on using exterior ply but I decided I am going to use Meranti BS1088 instead. In looking at the exterior ply available locally most of it doesn't look suitable for the FL14 (or any boat). Using the Meranti will give a better idea of how that wood is to work with and allow the option of more of a bright finish.
Again, thank you,
John

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:16 am
by gstanfield
You're welcome John. The sole reason I posted this is to help other builders out. I'd probably still cover everything with a single layer of lightweight fabric, probably 4oz. It won't add much to the cost, but it will add to the durability and long term lifespan and value of the boat. I think the cheap ply might have worked out OK had I fully glassed it, but I won't be taking that chance again personally. I may build a cheap canoe with cheap ply covered in 4oz just as a test, still debating that one.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:09 pm
by ks8
RIP

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:29 pm
by JohnC
Hey George,
I'm thinking of doing 3.25 oz or 4 oz glass in and out with maybe 6 oz on the bottom. This would allow for natural (bright finish) from the waterline up with a painted bottom (green) with a white waterline stripe typical of the wooden cruisers from the "Good Old Days" :D
John

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:38 pm
by gstanfield
I think that's a great plan and would look very nice on the FL14. Please do a build thread with pictures if you would. There's not enough build threads of the FL14 on here 8)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:00 pm
by JohnC
Hey George,
I will start a thread in the near future, planning on a Feb 2012 start. I've been over to see Dougster's Nina several times (we are about 25 miles apart, just "down the street" by Texas standards (and Wyoming too) :D ) He suggested getting started on all the "stuff" I need for the build 8O , hmmm... the was that Home Depot ad with the clamps.. and I'm sure there will be a couple lengths of PVC pipe cut for more clamps. :D
John

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:02 pm
by gstanfield
You can never have too many clamps. :D

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:12 pm
by ks8
John,

I have 6 oz on the exterior of my CV16, and 4 or 6 oz on the interior surfaces... all of them. :help: ... Well sealed, faired, sealed, primed, mostly painted. Not a sign of checking or rot anywhere. Left some areas bright under the seats so I could inspect for problems there. None. ABout 3 years use now. BUt she is much heavier than spec. And btw, lives in shelter when not in the water, which doesn't hurt any (Even a good cover with healthy ventilation, is going to help). :wink: . I did my *testing of materials* with the CV16. Next gets excellent wood.

Unless one is prototyping for the campfire, I'd recommend good meranti without having to think about it at all, maybe even BS1088. THen you *know* you've got a good core, and any glassing over that is further protecting that solid core. IN other words, minimize the *hmmm, I wonder if my thumb can go through anywhere, after three years*.

:)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:09 pm
by JohnC
Hey ks8,
My thoughts are Meranti BS1088 with lots of glass. Building the FL14 not just for the learning curve but for something to be around for awhile. I'm still debating electric vs 2.5hp 4 stroke for power, there are merits to both. I'm working on a Microsoft Paint version of the FL14 now, I'll try to have that before too long (may take longer in MS Paint than the real thing! 8O )
John

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:58 am
by ks8
JohnC wrote: I'm working on a Microsoft Paint version of the FL14 now, I'll try to have that before too long (may take longer in MS Paint than the real thing! 8O )
Everywhere one turns... learning curves... :lol:

Sounds like a plan. :) You may not need any more than 2.5 oz cloth on the interior, and if your laminations skills are up to the challenge, that will not add much weight at all, but will be a more durable protection for the core than epoxy alone. Maybe 6 oz on the bottom, and 4 oz on the outer topsides. The plans, I don't think have any of that in the schedule, and it will be more work and add some weight, but may go a long way in having it last long with less worries after occasional bumps and scrapes, but one should still inspect and dry out and repair *wounds* as soon as they are incurred and identified. If the schedule on the plans has only the tape seams and no cloth, then the design itself does not *need* any more, and if you add it, you have entered *option mod-ville*, and need to weigh the pros and cons, carefully. I've got 12 oz biax on the interior bottom hull panels of my CV16 cockpit and stomp around in there with no worries at all both on the water and on the trailer. Under the seats is only 4 oz weave. I paid for all that in additional epoxy and weight (lots), but I was protecting a less than ideal core, partly to prove it could be used (but as I have learned... could does not mean should) and wanted to stomp around with no worries at all in a hull that would hopefully outlast me. So far it is exceeding my expectations, but well over design weight, even though within an acceptable window of performance for me. Got lots of momentum to bring her through a tack! :lol:

Once understanding the schedule on the plans, you typically have two choices: 1- the lightest build per the plans, with perhaps more inspection for usage wounds, but better performance, or, 2- the *outlast a supernova with the Brooklyn Bridge and millions of globs of indestructable 5200* build, but this must be thought out carefully, as cost, weight, and certain aspects of performance will take a hit, even if the hull itself can now endure more of a hit. Version 2 or any version in between 1 and 2 deserves getting feedback from others before proceeding. :wink:

Enjoy that time in thinking chair, and those decisions. :)

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:04 pm
by Steven
I built my GV11 with Okoume BS1088. It has micro checks all over it the interior where there is no glass. Ugh!!!! Not happy, as I was planning on selling it when the OB is done in a couple months. I'll have to sand and cloth the hole thing to sell it in good conscience. I may do that with 3.25 oz. cloth and then Quick fair the entire inside. I'll fair and paint the seat tops. Glad I have no exposed wood on the OB that is not glassed.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:39 pm
by Larry B
Steven wrote:I built my GV11 with Okoume BS1088. It has micro checks all over it the interior where there is no glass. Ugh!!!! Not happy, as I was planning on selling it when the OB is done in a couple months. I'll have to sand and cloth the hole thing to sell it in good conscience. I may do that with 3.25 oz. cloth and then Quick fair the entire inside. I'll fair and paint the seat tops. Glad I have no exposed wood on the OB that is not glassed.
I didn't have that problem at all with my FL14 :doh: and I used Okoume BS1088 also. I didn't figure I did a Excellent job on it, so I gave it to a friend that needed a boat. He's still using it and probably will for a very long time. I put over 500 miles on it (in the water) in one year so it has been used. You figure the hours at 5 mph, not counting the anchor time which I usually spent all night on the lake.

Re: Here is WHY you use good plywood! **UPDATE on pg 6 **

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:42 pm
by Steven
I thought maybe it was the paint. I used Interlux one part. Decent paint. But all of them are in line with the grain.