PK78--First time builder progress report and recommendations

To help other builders, please list the boat you are building in the Thread Subject -- and to conserve space, please limit your posting to one thread per boat.

Please feel free to use the gallery to display multiple images of your progress.
User avatar
MNagy
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:00 am
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA, USA

Post by MNagy »

This is a great thread -- a lot of my questions are getting answered. I have one more thing to bother you about, Stainless: When you let the first fillet cure completely before doing the second one, did you sand the first fillet before applying the second? I remember hearing somewhere that if you let epoxy cure it is necessary to sand it before putting more epoxy on top.

User avatar
Stainless
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:00 am
Location: USA

Post by Stainless »

MNagy,

Please do not confuse me with someone who might actually know what they're doing...

You ask,
When you let the first fillet cure completely before doing the second one, did you sand the first fillet before applying the second?
Great question. You are a careful and thoughtful reader. The answer is "No." But, I think that it's OK. Here's why:

I'm using SystemThree epoxy. In The Epoxy Book, 2001 edition, on page three is a discussion of the film (also known as amine blush) it says:
... One of the benefits of System Three eposy is that this film need not be removed between coats if successive coats are applied soon after the previous coat cures.
On page 11
... Subsequent coatings applied at any time between this soft set stage and 72 hours do not need to be sanded and will chemically bond.

Subsequent coatings may still bond well after 72 hours without sanding but the proposition gets riskier. ... If in doubt, sand."
Armed with this information, a natural impatience, and an abundance of chutzpah, I proceeded without sanding. In my opinion, the joints on this little boat are way stronger than they need to be as it is, so I am comfortable with the risk--I'm also not planning on crossing any oceans in this boat. I have had opportunity to grind into the fillet in a couple of the joints. They seem to be bonded, so I feel somewhat validated, but as the book says "If in doubt, sand." You make your own decision. I don't want your heirs coming after me because you were lost at sea due to joints failing from improper bonding. :wink:

User avatar
Stainless
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:00 am
Location: USA

Post by Stainless »

I read a post where Evan suggested using cardboard and a hot melt glue gun to make a template for the seat. Thats what I did and mine came out almost perfect - I say almost; the template was perfect, my cutting was not. I made templates for every seat I have. Too easy.
Can someone (st?) point me to that thread? I'd love to read about this process.

Thanks.

User avatar
Stainless
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:00 am
Location: USA

Post by Stainless »

I figured out how to post pictures. I apologize for the quality. When I was taking them they were just notes of progress--I never thought I'd be publishing them.

A couple of shots of the hull after the stitches were all in an pulled up tight.
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/from_stern_stitched.jpg ">
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/from_bow_stitched.jpg ">

A couple of shots after taping the seams. The trunk seams aren't taped in yet in these shots.
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/from_bow_taped.jpg ">
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/from stern_taped.jpg ">

Here's the stern seat foam after it was poured and cut down flush.
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/rear_seat_foam.jpg ">

A couple of shots of the trunk.
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/trunk_back.jpg ">
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/trunk_front.jpg ">

Detail shot of the trunk. The white vertical line on the trunk is where I ground off the edge of the fiberglass tape with the rasp. This tape application on the trunk is not called out in the plans, but I added it. As you can see I haven't ground down all of the tape corners yet.
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/trunk_closeup.jpg ">

Shot of exterior seams. (I expect some contorversy over this :wink:)
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/exterior_seams.jpg ">

Here are the tools that I have made for this project. From left to right, the first is the highly controversial "jig." :lol: As you can see it is a very very simple device. The other two items are my fillet shapers. The smaller one can be replaced by tongue depressors (I found a source and they are cheap). The large one has about a 1" radius on it.
<img src ="modules/Upload/stainless/tools.jpg ">

st
Active Poster
Active Poster
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Australia, Werribee

Post by st »

Ah ha – the infamous jig; so famous it’s infamous. The plastic putty knifes were my friends also.

Nice work also, the taping and fillets are very good. You'll end up with a great boat.

A few posts on using the hot melt glue.
http://www.bateau2.com/modules.php?name ... dboard+hot
http://www.bateau2.com/modules.php?name ... pic&t=1226
http://www.bateau2.com/modules.php?name ... t=hot+melt


Another post about hot melt glue where (about half way down) JohnP mentions observing the installation of a counter top with hot melt glue. Taking that same thought, a few spots of hot melt glue should be enough to hold a frame in place while the seams are done. Okay maybe not the transom or bow frame in my FL14 (a bit too much tension there) but it would have worked with the others. The hot melt glue is left in place and taped over. No scrw holes! Food for thought.
http://www.bateau2.com/modules.php?name ... t=glue+gun

User avatar
Frankr
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:00 am
Location: WV
Contact:

Post by Frankr »

I've left copper, steel and plastic ties in my filets with no problems. Some have been in kayaks for over 5 years now. Inside fiberglass tapeing can be made easier by pulling the tape lengthwise first to smooth the tape out then folding the tape in half to form a crease down the center, wait till the epoxy is slightly tacky and then apply the tape and brush on the epoxy from the center fold outward to the sides. This method also helps on the outside radius corners.

DaveProka
Active Poster
Active Poster
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Massachusetts

Post by DaveProka »

MNagy,

Sorry I'm responding so late. I used both zip ties and copper wire. As Stainless mentioned, I found the zip ties too weak for some applications. They were flexible and less sturdy than the copper, but appropriate for some spots. Along the chine I used the ties, along the bow I used copper. The copper would also stretch a bit, but much less than the ties. I zip tied the bow and placed some patches on it. When I checked it about an hour later, the constant pressure had defeated the zip ties in a couple areas, causing them to snap, and I had to start over again. Next time, I used copper, and had better results. The problem I find with copper is judging how much you can twist it before it quits too.

Anyway, I did not fillet over any of them. I used the fiberglass patch method and then pulled the ties before running my fillets.

Stainless,

I admire your work. This is an exceptional review of the process and there are a lot of great tips here. Are you going to create a web site to broadcast this information?

-Dave
Modified GV13- Mad Russian

BillyV12
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:00 am

Post by BillyV12 »

To make the seats isn't as hard as it sounds. I made the curved seats for the V12.

Just set a scrap piece of ply against the inside panel as far as it will go (I notched it for the frame). then use a scribing tool (homemade) that offsets the pencil and mark the seat edge. Trim to the line and check the fit. There is that template. Then repeat for the other side (they probably will not be the same). Get your seat panel (cut full width, I didn't cut the curves inner curves until it was in place). Trace both templates to the seat panel, maybe a bit wider than you think it needs to be at first. Trim to fit.

The seat panels are a trim in place type of fit.

Really, it's harder to describe than to just do it.

Billy

Rick
* Bateau Builder *
* Bateau Builder *
Posts: 1419
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Western Washington

Post by Rick »

Stainless wrote:Shot of exterior seams. (I expect some contorversy over this :wink:)

Here are the tools that I have made for this project. From left to right, the first is the highly controversial "jig." :lol: As you can see it is a very very simple device. The other two items are my fillet shapers. The smaller one can be replaced by tongue depressors (I found a source and they are cheap). The large one has about a 1" radius on it.
The only thing controversial about your exterior seams is that they have such a small radius. Either one of us did it wrong, or it doesn't matter much. :roll:

Your yellow epoxy spreaders look just like mine! I've since upgraded to a polyethelyne "scraper" from a kitchen store, but most of my PK78 was done with yellow tools from Home Depot.

Nice boat. Your centerboard trunk is nicer than mine.

User avatar
Stainless
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:00 am
Location: USA

Post by Stainless »

Thank you all for your kind words regarding the workmanship on the boat.

DaveProka; No I'm not planning on a website beyond this thread. This project was really just meant as an experiment in the stitch and glue process. I really want to build the R550 (I have been thinking about building the R550 since late 1996) or maybe the CK17. I managed to withstand the temptation to jump right in on the larger boat and started this PK78.

The PK78 is purely to learn and experiment with the building process. The notes are mainly for myself. Since Jacques has these forums, I thought that I'd share my notes. I'm very pleased that others have found them useful (or maybe just amusing :wink:).


Rick; I dunno'. I don't see the need for a large radius on the exterior. In the interior the large radius keeps the tape from wanting to pull out of the joint when stressed. On the exterior, the only structural purpose (that I can see) for the radius is to keep from focusing too much stress at the corner. I don't think that it takes much radius to accomplish this. I don't think that it hurts to have a larger radius, but I don't think that it helps either. Being naturally impatient, I did the minimum.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests