Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Posted: **Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:25 pm**

I’ve been dreaming of building a boat for decades but could never justify it. I wanted to build one for an extended cruise that I did awhile back but was unable to convince myself that a hard dingy was a more practical choice for a tender than an inflatable. I’ve already got a tender for my little Catalina 22, a fold-a-boat which is not a good rowboat but is very light and stores easily. So, no reason to have another small boat.

And then one day I had an epiphany: I don’t need a reason.

I’ve been lurking on this forum for over a year and it’s been mighty entertaining. The mix of craftsmanship, artistry, and cleverness of you guys is inspiring and intimidating.

I’ve begun building a V10. It’s a very pretty boat and it’s the biggest one I think I can fit into my van. I’ve also got a very small workspace—10’X12’—and I built a mockup out of PVC to see if it would work. Things have gone smoothly so far until a day or two ago when I got anxious to start assembling the boat. It was a little more of a wrestling match than I had anticipated. I was trying to screw the frames in rather than just zip-tying them. OK, I have to bend this around here and hold it just so while I screw this in here and…boiiiing!!! Try again…Twang!!! So I gave up and will find a new approach. I’m in no hurry to get the project finished, since then I’ll have to row, which is a lot like exercise.

Posted: **Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:39 pm**

To keep it narrow so it would fit in the van doors, Jacques advised me to swap the rub rail for a sheer clamp or inwale, so I’ve notched the frames accordingly. I’ve also built the pieces in advance as he recommended, using the sides as a guide.

Posted: **Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:43 pm**

I got the frames in with little problem using zip ties. You'll see I've already rolled on some epoxy. I did this while everything was flat to avoid any chance of sag although I put it on thin. I left the edges clear to be wet out when I put on the tape, to achieve a better bond. This was probably unnecessary but it didn't take much time.

Posted: **Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:47 pm**

Loosely stitched together. This was pretty easy, as was everything so far.

Posted: **Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:49 pm**

Tightened up pretty close.

Posted: **Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:55 pm**

The dreaded bow knuckle. I'll get it sorted out with gk108's tip, or so I would like to believe.

Posted: **Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:23 am**

Looks great Tony. That'll be a great little boat!!

Posted: **Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:25 pm**

Closing that bow was the hardest part of building my V12, which was my first boat. Stick with it. It will also help that you are patient.

Posted: **Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:15 pm**

Thanks, guys.
While sorting out the bow I'm contemplating another problem. I made the butt blocks 10" wide, which I thought I saw somewhere. Then Cracker Larry said they should only be 6". I don't think the dimensions are in the plans but I could have missed them. Anyway, I've now got a flat spot in the hull where the butt block is. The photo shows the worst spot, which is out of fair by about 1/8":

I've thought of three possibilities: 1) disassemble the boat and take a router to reduce the width of the blocks, then re-assemble. But while I imagine this will somewhat ameliorate the problem, I don't know how much. 2) Just goop it up and fair it out perhaps with a little glass to add bulk. I'm not pleased with that idea but the other alternative isn't that appealing either. 3) forget it.

Any thoughts?

Posted: **Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:33 pm**

So here's my bow solution. Frankenboat. It's pretty ugly for now and needs a bit of tweaking but brute force was what was required. I think someone else on the forum did this, which is where I got the idea.

Posted: **Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:17 pm**

Whatever it takes

Posted: **Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:47 am**

that will work just fine!

Posted: **Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:29 pm**

.
…
….
….

just keep in mind the forces that are there when you remove the ties and franken bolt

doooh

Posted: **Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:40 pm**

Yikes!!
I'm assuming that's what happened to you?
It has occurred to me that I might put two or three strategically placed pieces of glass tape on the stem and turn of the bilge in the center, after goop but before pulling the bolt and ties, to reduce the possibility of this happening. Your picture is a cautionary tale, for sure. There is quite a bit of force on that bolt. I don't think it will add all that much to the fairing process.

Posted: **Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:31 am**

my build link
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..
...
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24444

Posted: **Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:09 pm**

Oh, yeah, been through it many times and am grateful for the pictures. I mistakenly gave gk108 credit for your bow solution...it was you who did the screws. But is that the one that sproinged open when you undid the ties? I'm not remembering which one of you guys came up with the frankenbolt, although I don't think he called it that.
I'm hoping to tidy things up this weekend and perhaps apply the goop and a couple of little pieces of glass tape at the bow. I need to shave down two of the frames just a bit as particularly the stern one stands proud of the gunwale about 1/4" when it is firmly sitting on the butt blocks.

Posted: **Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:58 pm**

Spent the day fine tuning the hull and frames. The instructions say you're supposed to put the frames and sides together and then lay the pieces for the bottom on that and trace the outline. Because the bow bends in about sixteen dimensions, I found this beyond my talents so I just cut the pieces according to the patterns. I was being careful; nonetheless they were off just a smidge but a little detailing took care of that.
I reworked the bow bolt several times and since the last time was not as good as the next to last time, I figured I'd quit fussing rather than make things worse. I put some goop and glass on the bow to prevent it from pulling apart when I remove the bolt. I'd upload a picture but it's too ugly to look at for now. I don't want to offend your sensitivities. That whole process involved a bit more butchery than I would have liked but the hope is that in the end all will work out. When that kicks I will flip the boat and create the goop welds on the inside, as directed. At that point I am tempted to remove the frames to work on the fillets and taping so I don't have to do it in sections. We'll see. I could do the welds on the outside, but am concerned that the goop will sag into the inside seams. It is more difficult to sand there than fair the outside seams, so I figure that doing the welds on the inside will create less work.

Posted: **Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:07 am**

Buy yourself some good quality duct tape and tape all the inside seams . Glue up all the seams on the outside then pull
the tape. Worked well for me .

Posted: **Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:26 am**

Thanks! I had been considering that but apparently some folks have had issues with the residue from the tape. Did you clean the surface with something after removing it? I'm fond of the idea for a few reasons otherwise.

Posted: **Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:38 am**

Just wipe with acetone , you are going to be sanding the in side and putting down tape any way .

Posted: **Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:31 pm**

Outside goop currently kicking, and I will do as you suggest when the duct tape is removed.

Posted: **Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:40 pm**

OK, I've decided that you folks have are tough enough to stomach these photos of the bow. First one is the frankenbolt from the inside:

Then, the bow looking aft (oops--some kind of hole there. Is that bad?):

And finally, the bow from port:

I slapped a little glass on so the boat doesn't explode when I release the bolt and ties. I think I may put in the fillet and tape on the inside as well, after I remove the ties but before I take out the bolt.
Now you see what I mean by hard to stomach. Nevertheless, I'm pretty satisfied with the curve between the bottom and stem at the knuckle. It came out pretty fair. Also, I'm convinced I got about as much deadrise here as I could, meaning we will have a fine entry. I know it's ugly, but I think the ultimate shape is satisfactory and the rest is makeup and powder.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:43 pm**

Did you sand off the broken epoxy stitches in that pic of frankenbolt? Or is that prior to the split? I ask because I thought that's where the initial epoxy goes before removing the ties.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:48 pm**

The "broken epoxy stitches" you are referring to are not really broken. They are the un-seamed edges of the glass tape provided by the Bateau folks, who have gone away from supplying the seamed type because, I assume, the seam creates more work in the fairing process. I have applied the glass in advance of doing the actual tape-up of the seams, which will follow once all the ties have been removed, in the interest of ensuring that no explosions result. Cranking down on that bolt took quite a bit of torque, all of which is hiding in the wood waiting to pounce.

The picture you see doesn't show anything that is the result of any tearing or breakage; everything is still being held together with the bolt and zip ties. As the picture is a fairly extreme close-up, the holes appear much worse than they are and will be attended to once the bolt and ties are removed. All the glass and epoxy you see was applied to a fresh plywood surface.

I'm just guessing that you assumed that this mess was the result of my botched-up job that broke apart, but, unfortunately, it is just a view of my normal level of craftsmanship. Unless it does actually break apart with the removal of the bolt, I have faith it will all work out in the end and be as pretty as Jessica Alba.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:45 pm**

I just realized I was looking Doc_dyers picture thinking it was yours. And then you posted your pic from the inside and it was magically clean wood. And now I realize we're waiting to see what happens when frankenbolt gets removed, and hoping we don't get a new version of Docs pic. It looks like you've got that sorted pretty well though.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:43 pm**

It happens on the bigger boats too!

Went off like a bomb when I clipped one too many wire ties! Had to go change my shorts!

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:01 pm**

Yikes!
Yep, I'll be holding my breath when the bolt comes out. But glass is amazingly strong and I've decided to definitely put a band-aid of cloth on the inside, too, before I release the bolt...hoping that works.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:19 pm**

Put some spot welds of glue on the inside between the stitches. Add a piece of tape if you're scared, but epoxy glue is as strong as a bolt if you have a little surface area to glue to.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:50 pm**

Yep, will do.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:49 pm**

Here's the band-aid I put in, in an excess of caution:

I let it kick for a day and then pulled out the bolt, with very little trepidation. Nothing even creaked, so we're solid.
Actually, belay that. Let's wait for a day before we pop the cork.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:30 pm**

Yup. No problem. Cracker Larry is made of braver stuff but anyway the scaredy-cat method worked.
Now tape up the interior, then flip and attend to that mess on the bow before taping the exterior.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:03 pm**

Cracker Larry is made of braver stuff but anyway the scaredy-cat method worked.

No braver, just been there and done that and know the strength of epoxy and tape

It's a lot stronger than a bolt and cable ties.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:35 am**

I ran into a little puzzle. The beam on the V10 is 4'6". I want to transport it in a Ford E250, and the entry at the back doors is 4'6-1/2" giving a clearance of .5". But as this will at times be used as a tender, I want to have a rub rail of rope or rubber to avoid dinging up my topsides, so I needed a little more clearance to accommodate that. (Even with fenders there will be times the dinghy contacts the hull, at least with my level of seamanship.) Jacques suggested replacing the designed rub rail with a sheer clamp, which would subtract 1.5" from the beam, just what was needed. Theoretically, problem solved. But for whatever reason, once the boat was assembled the beam measured about 4'5-3/4" which meant that adding the rubber rail was going to make it wider than what I needed to fit in the van by about 1/2-3/4" without any clearance.

So I'm solving this at the risk of being drummed out of the corps. I shaved the widest frame by about, say, 1/4" on each side. I really hated to do that but on the other hand I didn't like the idea of spending another $500 plus on a rack and some kind of system to get it on top of the van, which is a long ways up. It's still tight and I really won't know if it fits in the doors until I try it.

The appearance of the sheer, which to my eye is perfect as designed, seems to be very little affected, but it is hard to tell and there may be a subliminal aesthetic cost. I'm hoping I don't get too many demerits for this blasphemy.

Otherwise, the inside is taped and, so far, things are moving along with no major train wrecks.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:32 am**

Would you be able to tilt it on angle a bit just to get the widest part through the door?

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:46 am**

There is a bed in the back of the van so there's a limit on how much I can tilt it. But of course this may be necessary and I am hoping it will accommodate the boat. I'd like to think it will. I've tried every measurement and even thought of making a mock-up in cardboard but haven't done that yet.

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:04 am**

I've been delayed awhile because after a race that we always lose, we found a bit of water trickling into our little Catalina 22. I'm not an expert, but it occurred to me that over a period of time, water entering the boat from the bottom up may create a....problem. So we had to pull the boat out and, hopefully, resolve the issue.
Anyway, I got the interior taped and the frames in and am anxious to turn it over and see what kind of mess I'm presented with where the goop escaped the seams. Not worried, though.
I was quite amused to find a post from Jacques in response to some impressive photos of a builder's project. He said that the sort of precision displayed was not really required (in other words, while nice, was overkill), and Jacques didn't want to intimidate potential customers by giving the impression that this level of skill was necessary...and I'm thinking, NO PROBLEM, Jacques, I've got you covered. Anyway, although I've never built a boat I've done a bit of work with epoxy and glass and goop and know that it is ludicrously forgiving (except for the truly boneheaded mistakes that await me) and so I hope to provide proof that even an idiot like me can be successful.
The perspective on the picture below makes the stern look way wider than it is and the boat looks a little cockeyed. Not sure why that is; I'm no better photographer than boatbuilder. But the diagonals are true, the stem is straight, and the lines are correct and very pleasing in person. You'll just have to trust me on this.

Posted: **Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:38 pm**

Jacques didn't want to intimidate potential customers by giving the impression that this level of skill was necessary...and I'm thinking, NO PROBLEM, Jacques, I've got you covered.

Haha! Well -- it looks nice so far!

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:48 pm**

Got the outside seams taped and today I glued on the skeg. Since it gets so skinny at the forward end I wanted to ensure it would be straight, so I clamped a 1x1 to it while the goop kicks. The vertical board keeps it upright and centered. Waiting to see if this worked.

Posted: **Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:50 pm**

It came out straight enough. Again, it's a little straighter than it looks because of foreshortening or some other optical distortion that is above my pay grade. A straightedge confirms it.

Here it is glassed in with a bit of goop on the bottom to fair things just a pinch, which I'll sand and then put down a layer of glass over the whole bottom.

Posted: **Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:09 pm**

Nice. Looks mighty strong.

Posted: **Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:00 pm**

Awfully nice of you to comment on this little project, given the daunting projects you guys are into.

Posted: **Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:48 pm**

Here's the current state of the bow. All the forces applied in wrenching the bottom pieces together resulted in just a little concavity on this side so I've filled it with epoxy thickened with milled glass. The bow will definitely need a bit of fairing to achieve semi-perfect symmetry. Jacques' drawings show just the slightest hint of the bump at the knuckle, almost subliminal, and that's the way the pieces go together, or so it seemed to me.

Next step is a layer of glass on on the bottom.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:22 pm**

Goop is devious stuff.
I crawled underneath the upturned boat yesterday because I missed seeing it, and saw this:

What this is a light coming through one of the seams, which have glass on both sides...so what I think happened is that when I filleted and taped the inside, which I did first, the epoxy/wood flour sagged into the duct tape below before it kicked, even though it was a fairly stiff mix and I'd waited an hour for it to begin to kick before glassing. Perhaps because the tape wasn't secured well enough at that point, it had room to ooze out a bit to the side, leaving this void which shows up as translucence. When I rounded over the outside edge before glassing it, I couldn't see how thin it was. If I had actually sanded completely through the goop I would have discovered this void. Maybe it is no big deal, but I think I'll drill a couple of small holes and insert some more epoxy thickened with wood flour in a syringe to fill it up. Think that will do it? Or should I just start the build all over again from the beginning?

I'm not too concerned since there is one layer of glass on the inside and there will be two on the outside of this seam...but maybe I should be.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:22 pm**

Drill into it from the inside, not the outside. No matter what you may need to do to fix it, it will fair more easily if you work from the inside, keeping that outer tape skin intact.

Maybe, best case, it is not a void anymore, but clear epoxy, from the taping, filling in the gap. If it is only in a few spotty places, and epoxy instead of air, then since it is a v10, and not a Mangusta, you might not have to do much at all other than a quick drill and refill to make sure it was solid clear epoxy and not air.

But confirm whatever your plans are with Jacques.

And maybe take a single picture of the entire hull, and then put little circles on the picture where all the very translucent areas are. This will give a better idea of how numerous, and where.

No need to chainsaw and burn it and start marking fresh sheets.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:07 pm**

Thanks so much for the sage advice. I'll take some pictures with strong light to see if there are any other spots. It is certainly possible that, as you say, it is clear epoxy because now that I think about it, I put the duct tape on before I wet out the area with a chip brush, at which point the boat was right side up. It is not out of the question that the epoxy would pool a little in the crevices before I even started on the filleting. Still, I would have thought the fillet would make it opaque. Anyway, I'll take some more pictures, consult Jacques, and go from there.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:59 pm**

I don't think it will be an issue at all, but like KS said, run a small drill bit from the inside and see if it is solid or a void. If it's a void just fill it from the inside with thickened epoxy and move on.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:04 pm**

Thanks, CL. Gonna drill into it right now.
At least you can't see through the plywood part. That may be a little more troubling.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:36 pm**

Well, this appears to have been a tempest in a teapot, and that's being unfair to teapots. I drilled a couple of holes and couldn't find a void...I'll patch them later when I've got some extra epoxy.
Thanks for your kind indulgence, gentlemen.

Posted: **Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:40 pm**

Good fiberglass lamination will pass light. I've seen solid glass hulls 3/4 thick that you could see the sun shine through. That little thing isn't a problem.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:19 pm**

I laid the glass over the whole bottom and up about 6" on the sides.
It looked nice but the next day I was disappointed to find 3 or 4 small bubbles. I ground them out and patched them, but what looked pristine now appears like old jeans. I don't mind the extra time so much but was a little embarrassed at the sloppiness, when I thought I had been very careful with the glass. Oddly enough, the bow, where I thought there might be problems, came out fine. Just a little more time fairing. No big deal.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:30 pm**

I missed this because ti was in the "non-technical" section.

It is fine to see light through glass and resin, not a problem. Air pockets can be a problem but not the kind of tiny little bubbles that require a magnifier to find. We are talking about real bubbles, not little spots here and there.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:32 pm**

That's right. No big deal.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:26 pm**

Thanks for the reassurance, guys.
I re-read my post on this bubble issue and found the word "pristine" and had to laugh. No pristine here. Wrong number.

Posted: **Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:03 am**

BTW, when I laid the glass on the bottom I thought I'd be smart and use Mylar as "poor man's ply" and it didn't turn out so swell. I've used it before in projects the size of a hatch and it worked fine but for some reason all that happened was that after putting down the plastic I used a laminate roller to press it into the glass/epoxy and I ended up just chasing a bunch of bubbles around, like herding cats. I had pre-cut the Mylar and had it so it would lay down flat, or so I thought. I did it for awhile and then started to get paranoid about the epoxy going off before I had eliminated the bubbles...so I peeled it off and just used plastic spreaders and a chip brush to tame the glass, which worked fine. Clearly, a little above my skill level.
Anyway, 5-mil Mylar isn't really all that cheap so real peel ply may have been more appropriate...but I had no experience with it and was chicken.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:04 pm**

Fairing the hull has been proceeding; nothing particularly interesting about that. But perhaps this may be of value:
When I used the "frankenbolt" method to pull the bottom pieces together at the bow, I had already tightened the zip ties as tight as I could and then concentrated on the bolt. What I think I should have done is tighten the bolt and only then bring in the zip ties, particularly the ones circled. A very slight amount of concavity was produced, I believe, when the ties pulled the sides inboard. I wasn't paying attention to this at the time. It's very minor and I'm fairing it out, but should anyone else use this method...

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:09 pm**

Another issue that was not so smart and is requiring additional fairing is that I mistakenly used butt blocks that were 10" wide. I know, don't yell at me. This created flat spots at the middle frame. They would bother me so I am building them up with glass and goop. This will add a tiny bit of weight but I'm going to have to live with that. In my next life there won't be any mistakes.

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:02 am**

That's what the first boat is for.

The way plywood bends as a developed plate sometimes gets interesting. Some of it is normal, some not. It depends on how the tie wraps are tightened. Some shapes should form naturally, with very little force needed. If one tries to force the shaping on those areas, it will need more fairing. Generally these designs take shape naturally as the panels bend *fairly*, but there are some exceptions, typically at the bow. It is easy enough to post a picture and ask, to make sure.

The bow is looking good from here, and the butt block seam will be fine. Depending on what you are aiming for, the fairing will be simple and quick, or simple and not so quick. Forget trying to make that seam disappear with an RO. The long board will be the tool of choice to fair that best.

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:25 am**

Thanks, I appreciate it.
Yep, the longboard will be the tool of choice. I'd never be able to do it with the RO, and besides, I rather enjoy hand tools. It may be a mental problem.

Posted: **Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:29 am**

When low tech is the best solution -- that's no mental problem.

Posted: **Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:22 pm**

So here we go. I found that yellow thing at Harbor Freight. It's a very bendy longboard, to go with the stiffer one.
I've got a question for you guys. My temptation is to get the hull pretty smooth just by look and feel and then roll on a coat or two of epoxy over the microballoons/epoxy and then a coat or two of S3 primer, just to see where I'm at. At that point I figured I'd start with the QuickFair. Is that the right order?

Posted: **Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:25 am**

Quick Fair before primer. I usually put on 2 or 3 rounds of fairing, then sand and prime. The primer will show spots that may need a little more fairing, but do most of it before priming.

Posted: **Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:08 am**

Thanks, Cracker Larry (or may I call you CL?), will do. You seem to use the water method to locate problem areas, while I think Jacques and others do it with a guide coat over the primer...or are these different steps in the process?
Also, at what point do I want to just coat the entire boat with clear epoxy for waterproofing? At first there was a coat on the whole boat, but at various places at the edges of fairing, this has been sanded off.

Posted: **Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:57 pm**

I've been doing a lot of fairing and sanding but compared to knottybuoyz flip and Shine's new boat and Cracker Larry's details and many others, I don't have much in the way of entertainment to offer. The boat has three coats of S3 on it and all looks pretty good. For the most part I had anticipated the problem areas and they are minor but I was anxious to put on a solid color to see where I'm at so I jumped the gun and applied the primer. I'm trying graphite powder for a guide coat and then will apply Quick Fair.
But I did come up with one thing: The only truly worrisome bit is the bow knuckle. Nobody will ever notice but me but I'll know. I put a contour gauge on it and the bow is about 1/16" out of symmetry for the 1st couple of inches. I would have done this when I was wrenching together the plywood but you couldn't put the gauge on it with the bolt there and you couldn't hold it together without the bolt so it was a Catch-22 at least for my intellect. But I thought of an excellent solution which has calmed me down. I have to put a bow eye somewhere, so I'll just put it right there.

Posted: **Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:13 pm**

Sanding is my life now. After a bunch of fairing I put on 3 coats of S3, then a guide coat of graphite, sanded it down, filled the low spots and then sanded and then filled some more and sanded some more etc. and just put on another 3 coats of S3 since in a lot of places there was little left. All hand sanded, don't trust the RO.

That doesn't look TOO bad, but then closer in you see

And that's one of a dozen. So we'll see if I can get these settled today. I've decided I'm done shaping so if the boat needs any more of that I'm going to send Cracker Larry a plane ticket and a retainer

Only kidding. I'm not a millionaire. But I think I can conquer these little buggers by myself...although there's no guarantee. I'd swear I've already filled a few of these more than once

Hey, no one answered my question about heating the epoxy/graphite in the microwave to make it mix better.

Posted: **Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:54 pm**

Looks like a boat!

Play dentist...scratch up in those *cavities* with a needle file, and then fill 'em with a very small batch of epoxy and filler blend. Then when cured and sanded fair, top with a coat or two of primer. That looks a little too big to try to fill with just more primer.

I would NOT try the microwave thing. First, a microwave cooks by exciting water molecules, and we hope there are not any of those in the epoxy.

And if it did heat the epoxy for some other reason, the result could be a real mess, in many ways which I'd rather not find out by experimentation.

Next, heated epoxy is going to go off much quicker.... much quicker, if you heat it some other safe and predictable way. Normal room temperature is the temperature to use it at, usually. So --- use the microwave -- only for food, as per its designed purpose.

Posted: **Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:24 pm**

Thanks, ks8 for the sage advice.
Already filled the holes with Quick Fair. But I didn't think of getting in there with a small tool first. Hope it sticks! You're right, too big for primer. More sanding to follow.
Yes, the microwave thing sounded sketchy. I thought I'd seen it on a forum but anyway it was in regard to CL's recommendation that the graphite mixed better with epoxy when the temperature was hot. [To be clear, HE didn't mention that particular idea.] I'll do it at room temp, even though we don't get the kind of ambient temperatures in the SF Bay Area that he sees in the southeast...which is just as well

Posted: **Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:00 pm**

I've had to heat up resin to dissolve crystals that had formed in it. I found a plastic trash can in which the gallon jug of epoxy barely fit. Then I heated a little water near boiling and poured it into the trash can. I watched that the trash can didn't melt, then when the water had cooled a little, but was still plenty hot, I floated the gallon jug of epoxy resin in it, with the cap loosened. Because the jug barely fit in the trash can, it would not tip over and get water in the epoxy jug. The cap was loosened but left on, to minimize any moisture from hot water steam getting into the jug. Then I watched crystals dissolve away after swapping in fresh hot water a few times. This warm jug bath can get the epoxy HOT. If you try to mix it at that temperature, you won't have much working time, and if you don't pour out the blended resin and hardener quickly into a pan type of container, instead of the mixing cup, it may boil and then setup as a smoking blob. Don't ask how I know. Remember, the epoxy curing reaction produces its own heat (exothermic), as long as it is at a minimum working temperature for the reaction to take place. The smoke from crazy hot curing epoxy is very bad stuff. If this happens, don't breathe it, and get it out of the work area, since the batch has become useless for boat building.

So then, the thing to do, if you want to try heating the resin to make it a little thinner for blending in the graphite, is to be careful, don't heat it too much, have a large surface area pan type container ready in which to pour in the mixed blend (so it can cool by greater surface area exposed to air), and work quickly out of that low and wide container. It is very doable, when thought out and done the right way. I've done it for some filler blends, and I've also chilled hardener in the fridge to get more work time, but it can be a pain to mix chilled hardener.

edit - you could heat up the water that you will use for the epoxy bath, in the microwave, but not the epoxy itself in the microwave.

Posted: **Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:22 pm**

Thanks very much for sharing the results of your science experiments!
Having heard that rundown, I think what I will do is skip the heating and mix the epoxy/resin using CL's directions absent the Georgia temperatures, and see how it goes. I'm actually at least as worried about the roller disintegrating as I am about the mixture, and I've also had this thought: so maybe it doesn't turn out perfect, and the result will be that the other imperfections in my preparations will be masked by the unevenness of the epoxy coat. One can always hope.

Posted: **Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:50 pm**

Sure looks good so far

Posted: **Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:59 pm**

A bit frustrated. As I mentioned, I filled the holes with Quick Fair after wiping with acetone. For almost all of them, this did the trick. But this area is giving me fits. I'm sure I've filled it three times at the very least, and yet sanding it yields the result you see below, so the Quick Fair is not adhering. There are a dozen little divots that refuse to be filled. I am a little skittish about doing what ks8 suggests, even though his experience in these things leads me to believe that his is the only solution. The reason I'm reluctant is that these are obviously voids between the weave, and I'm worried about filing or grinding them out of a concern for weakening the glass. They are so small that it will be very hard, without a magnifying glass, to see what I'm doing well enough to be careful, and even at that, without the hands of surgeon, I may screw it up. Should I try something other than acetone? I know lacquer thinner and alcohol have been used, but not for this particular application. Maybe what I need is just a stiff wire brush?

Posted: **Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:35 pm**

I do not understand why QF will not fill them

I have never bothered to try and clean out the tiny crevasses, they just fill with QF, then get sanded.

Those are so small I might just let the primer fill them in.

A trick to filling the last teeny tiny bits; After you roll on a coat of primer, go back with what is left over and put it on thosr spots THICK. You can even trim most of the bristles off a 1" brush and "dab" a "blob" of primer on them

Posted: **Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:16 pm**

Yeah, it's weird. It's not like there is a general adhesion problem that I'm seeing all over the place. I'm afraid as small as they are, they will not be quite filled by S3 but I'll try your method. I'd like to just forget them and live with it but I haven't reached that point yet. I think what I'll do is use a wire brush, then some cleaner other than acetone, like alcohol, then perhaps either primer or Quick Fair and see what I can get to stick. My last experiment was just clear epoxy, and that didn't work either!!

Posted: **Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:53 pm**

Well, after a few more tries at this I finally resorted to ks8's solution which I had been avoiding. I dug out the residue, which looks to be either primer or epoxy/microballoons, with an awl, cleaned with a wire brush and then acetone, and re-applied the Quick Fair. That seems to have done it. However, on the resins, fiberglass and paint forum I see a question which bothers me and is not yet answered: how long to wait for S3 to cure before filling with Quick Fair? CL said he waits 5 days before painting on top of the S3, and I am in serious trouble if that same 5 days applies to Quick Fair. I'm wondering if this is perhaps the reason I'm getting these voids. It would really slow down the process, however, if I had to wait 5 days after priming (which is when stuff like this shows up) and filling with Quick Fair. Not only that, the worse problem is that I have not given the S3 anywhere near this amount of time before applying the Quick Fair, and am worrying that all that fairing is not going to adhere. In feathering out the Quick Fair, you're going to end up with areas where the QF is on top of the primer.

Posted: **Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:40 pm**

A speculation....

The S3 primer is water based. The areas where you had some difficulty, were *hollows*, small ones, the size of the weave. It is possible that if there was any moisture or uncured residue of some sort, that had not yet completely evaporated or otherwise vanished, it might have remained a little more concentrated in those few small little hollows. I'm guessing.

What were the temperatures during the cure? Did you thoroughly sand and wipe down all the primer before the quick fair? If those little *wells* between the weave were deep enough, they might not have been, technically, sanded or wiped down at all, if you follow my meaning. And if that is the case, then that *raises* the confidence in the surface cure and prep over the rest of the primer surface elsewhere. Let's hope this is the case.

I have learned, when it comes to adhesion -- when in doubt, be double sure that the surface is definitely wiped down, scratched up at least minimally (for good secondary mechanical bond adhesion tooth), vacuumed and wiped again and dried.

When close to glass tape fibers, this doesn't mean you do fatal damage to the structure by slightly scratching or even cutting a few of the upper fibers, and, you can get some minor scratching up in the area without necessarily damaging the fibers. As Jacques has said elsewhere, he designs in some reserve strength. In other words, since each strand of glass is made up of many fibers, cutting a few in the scratching up process is still going to leave you with sufficient strength. And, this is a V10, not an 80 mph planing hull. Your questions and concerns are good ones. The problem areas you show are very small for that boat, and appear to be insignificant. When in doubt, I put one more layer of glass tape over the top, sometimes cheap and thin, and then have no worries while even sanding right through that entire sacrificial top layer. Everyone develops their own little techniques to have a confident strong worry free building experience.

I'm not a professional engineer. I'm not present at your site to see it up close for myself. I wasn't there watching your prep and mixing. I'm just a fellow builder. ANd as such, I suspect you will not have quick fair falling off everywhere, especially if you are not seeing any problems at all in any *non-glass-weave-texture* areas. Epoxy is a very aggressive adhesive. I'm thinking the quick fair might not like moisture contamination when being applied, and those little weave wells are candidates for holding impurities like moisture. That's why I sometimes take a needle file to them, just to be sure they are cleaned out and scratched up a bit, and cleaned out again. Its a particular potential issue with strong weave texture showing after applying a water based primer, if there is any rush on the primer cure, but, usually, before such primer, there is no longer any deep dramatic weave texture. Most of that is already filled in *fairly* well (pun intended

). Fix those spots up, and I think you'll be fine. Let us know your next step.

Posted: **Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:52 pm**

Maybe what I need is just a stiff wire brush?

That's what I was going to suggest. It seems like there are always 1 or 2 spots that drive me crazy, just like that one

Make sure the acetone you are using is not a recycled product, they can have contaminates. Or try denatured alcohol or lacquer thinner instead. Lacquer thinner probably gives the cleanest surface.

Posted: **Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:29 pm**

Thank you both very much for your swift and clear responses.
S3 and Quick Fair are new products for me, so I'm not as confident about using them as I am with epoxy/microballoons/silica. Especially weird to me is that S3 is water-based, and to my chemically untrained mind

, that is just not what I associate with epoxy, so without the experience you two have, I'm tentative in my understanding of it. Neither of you mentioned a 5-day wait after primer before Quick Fair, so I assume this did not set off alarms with you?

I am pretty danged sure I carefully sanded and cleaned these areas with acetone. There may be some contamination I suppose in the acetone, but since the entire hull has been similarly treated, this seems unlikely to be the issue. I can't imagine I blithely applied Quick Fair without doing these things, but I can imagine I missed a spot or two...although I'm pretty careful. But I believe the stuff that didn't adhere, now that I've dug it out, was neither the primer nor the Quick Fair but the coat of epoxy and microballoons that I used as my first step.

ks8 is correct that every occurrence is in the voids between the weaves. Also, I'm not very concerned about strength because in each of these areas, this is the second layer of glass, applied as recommended to resist abrasion on the bottom, not the original taping, which is underneath and has been untouched. So my concerns are aesthetic, but on the other hand, I put a bit of time into this and I'd hate to end up with glaring faults.

Also, CL, thanks for the reassurance that even you have a spot now and again that is a problem child

.

Posted: **Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:08 pm**

Neither of you mentioned a 5-day wait after primer before Quick Fair, so I assume this did not set off alarms with you?

Careful with assume... it is not always possible to speak to every little detail that one sees.

I have a fresh gallon of S3 Yacht Primer here, but haven't used it yet. In the past I have used WR-155, their previous primer product, also water based. I realize some users have painted over it after just a few days cure, or less. But I prefer to give it at least a week. The outside of the hull had months of cure before I painted it, but then, I did move over 500 miles, with it on a trailer, and had to resettle abit.

I suppose if you live in the arizona desert, it may cure faster. I think the application notes say a week, but then, I haven't read those in awhile. I'm about to open the yacht primer, and actually finish painting my seats(!), so it is time to download the application notes for it from System Three. You might do the same. They may inspire some more good questions, from us all.

Then we can post some answers and recommendations as we encounter and develop them.

Posted: **Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:57 pm**

Here's the quote from the downloaded instructions: http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/l ... rature.pdf

Yacht Primer dries by evaporation and then cures in a temperature dependent
resin/hardener curing reaction. It may be recoated with
additional primer after it is dry to the touch but it should not be topcoated
until after it cures. Curing takes about a day in warm temperatures and
longer in cool weather. Test for cure by wetting a finger and rubbing it
on the primer. If your fingertip picks up some primer then it is not cured.
The film will not be water-resistant until it is cured. Rain or moisture
from dew or condensation can damage the film.

However, this is addressing the issue of a topcoat. I'm not sure this applies to Quick Fair.

In any case, even though I didn't do the wet finger test, the Quick Fair I applied was done at least a day later with temperatures in the 70s. I'm crossing my fingers this is sufficient. Also, my problems don't seem to have stemmed from the S3 not adhering, but the original epoxy/microballoon goop. I have not seen any areas where the S3 didn't seem to work as expected and it has been subjected to quite a bit of sanding.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:41 pm**

If the primer had problem adhering to the tape laminate, or the microballons before the primer had the problem adhereing, then that would be a different issue, possible a blush issue, which would have same solution, ie, better cleaning out and slight scratching up of the weave hollows.

As to one day being sufficient of a cure for the primer, like I said... Maybe if you live in a hot and dry climate. But I still feel much more comfortable with a week. Let's just call it a personal minimum with a water base primer, particularly if fairing will be done 'over' the water base primer. I would also, as a personal rule, leave a bit more toothy surface in any primed areas that will be further faired.

Fixit up and press on.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:38 pm**

Thanks.
Still working on it, I'm afraid. I am down to one small area that has resisted my efforts so far. I do believe you're right that it must be a blush issue. I must have missed a spot, as the rest of the boat is fine. So today I will have to do some more aggressive grinding with a sort of foam wheel I have selected for the job, together with a little dentistry. A little frustrating to be not moving forward, but it is penny-ante stuff compared with some issues many on this forum have faced. I'll let you know what works.

As to waiting a week, considering that I have generally not had this problem, and have had so many rounds of fairing followed by a primer coat that revealed more holidays, that it would be a very long process.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:21 pm**

Take another look at Joel's post at the top of this page (oops - the previous page

) ... About putting a big blob of primer on such areas. I've done that on some very stubborn pinholes on the seat tops and it did the job.

It will mean doing a careful job of fairing the blob back down, right on that chine. I think most of us end up finishing off the final prep of the chines with a careful light touch by hand and small sanding block or sanding sponge. Its one of those fun detail areas, that is rewarding when finished, something I suspect only the builder sees and appreciates.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:46 pm**

Thanks. I've done all of the above. I haven't done any machine sanding to date, and have used the sponges lightly on the chines. I tried Joel's suggestion but the primer also came free when challenged, so like I said I did a bit of grinding away of all fillers and primer, and picking away with an awl, trying to not compromise the glass, then washed it with water, let it dry, washed it down with acetone, and applied Quick Fair. I'm waiting for it to cure completely and then we'll give it another sanding and see what happens. I can't remember having so much trouble getting epoxy to stick. Usually it will adhere to anything that's not specifically engineered to repulse it, like mylar, whether you like it or not. I'll figure it out somehow.

The chine, in the end, will not be as nice as it could have been. I had to fill out the sides with glass to fair them, as I had mistakenly used butt blocks that were too wide and created a flat spot.

That was sorted with extra glass and fairing, but the difficult part was at the chine, since you have the bottom, which was cut correctly but then stitched to the overly flattened side. So the area of the chine directly below the widened boat doesn't have quite the fairness I would like. If I did it over I think I could get it right.

I can't believe anyone could notice it, however, unless I pointed it out and even then I'd have to demonstrate what I was talking about. I don't even think I could get it to show up in a photo. Maybe I'll try. But I know it's there. What is going to happen, though, is that the line between the black graphite/epoxy and the topside paint, which I think is going to be a sort of dark blue, should be a fair line about 1" up from the chine and my fantasy is that this transition will trick the eye into believing that all is just dandy. Could be wishful thinking.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:34 pm**

BTW, I've thought of a new way to consider my failures. Despite the time I've spent tracking down and eliminating glitches, I still know that in the cold light of day I'm going to see some things that have managed to escape my best efforts. I've decided they have earned my grudging respect, and I shall call them "survivors."

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:15 pm**

I still know that in the cold light of day I'm going to see some things that have managed to escape my best efforts. I've decided they have earned my grudging respect, and I shall call them "survivors."

Me and you both

Posted: **Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:37 pm**

I think I’m almost there with this fairing business. I ordered my wife, or perhaps it was pleaded with her, to come out to the shop and give me the benefit of her opinion on whether certain little glitches were worthy of further attention. I had to point them out of course, as her unprofessional glance would never have discovered them. She snickered and said it was “cute” that I thought they were important enough to consider. “Cute” is not exactly the adjective a manly boatbuilder is looking for. She said, “Let them live, they’re like birthmarks,” at which she rolled up her sleeve and pointed to a dark mark on her forearm. I said, “Wait a minute, did you disclose that before we were married?” This boatbuilding business can be hell on relationships.

Posted: **Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:22 am**

You're brave, or something else, calling it *her unprofessional glance*.

Posted: **Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:10 am**

It's OK, my wife hasn't paid any attention to what I say for years, and she seems pretty happy with that arrangement.

Posted: **Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:35 am**

Sounds like Mrs. Cracker and I

I enjoy your sense of humor

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:16 am**

Tiny divots finally resolved. So on to the result of the epoxy/graphite coat.

I discussed my problems with it on the resins, fiberglass, and paint forum. Like many others except for you experts I had difficulty getting a satisfactory result for reasons it will take a couple more boats to figure out but anyway there are four coats on and it isn't going anywhere. I'm sure it will serve its purpose.

I have finally flipped the boat and also have rigged a three-part purchase to lift it when required. Nothing compared to knottybuoys engineering, but anyway I ordered a fish scale which I plan to use to weigh the boat. Problem is I couldn't find a cheap one that exceeded 110 pounds in capacity. But supposedly the target weight for this boat is 85 pounds...hmmm. Don't think I'll make that

.

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:35 am**

That looks great Tony. After you flip it nobody will see it anyway. It takes a lot of practice to get a good finish with graphite and the gods have to co-operate too. It took me 7 boats of practice

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:06 am**

Looks plenty slick.

The first few scratches will make it go faster.... while on the trailer.

There are ways to weigh it with a scale that doesn't quite go high enough, using a fulcrum. Or put it on several bathroom scales and add them up. Just put a board on the scale tops first, so the contact point weight is distributed over a larger area on the scale top, so you don't dent it. Yep... done that.

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:29 pm**

It's like weighing an airplane, one wheel at a time.

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:50 pm**

ks8 wrote:Looks plenty slick. The first few scratches will make it go faster.... while on the trailer.

I just got that

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:29 pm**

Walkers Run wrote:
ks8 wrote:Looks plenty slick. The first few scratches will make it go faster.... while on the trailer.
I just got that

I too shall have a happy retirement.

[as I finally get all the jokes that went over my head throughout life

yes, I get strange looks when after sitting in a waiting room for half an hour, I break into a laugh for a few seconds. This why I always bring something to read. People think its something funny I read. I need to remember to hold the book rightside up. ]

Posted: **Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:22 pm**

Thanks, guys...
Got the scale and it looks like right now it weighs 75 pounds, and this is before seats, knees, fairing the inside, and paint. So a bit on the heavy side but I have an extra layer of glass on the bottom and glassed the skeg which was not required. Plus, tons of fairing, although I think I'm one of those guys who, like Jacques says, sands 90% of it off. It is what it is and on we go.

Posted: **Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:29 pm**

Heavy?

You're doing well.

Posted: **Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:29 pm**

All right, on with the dance.

This image is of interest only because 1) the bulkheads are notched to accommodate an inwale which I'm using instead of a rub rail to minimize the beam so I can (hopefully) get it in my van. Only the first layer of 3/8" meranti has been glued. 2) I followed Jacques' advice and cut the pieces for the inwale using the sides for a pattern while the boat was unassembled. This seems like it makes so much sense but I'm sure without his tip I wouldn't have thought of it. As a result, the pieces fit perfectly without any cursing.

Posted: **Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:06 pm**

I followed Jacques' advice and cut the pieces for the inwale using the sides for a pattern while the boat was unassembled. This seems like it makes so much sense but I'm sure without his tip I wouldn't have thought of it. As a result, the pieces fit perfectly without any cursing.

That really is a LOT easier than trying to bend straight rub rail pieces to conform to the sides. You will certainly curse trying to bend straight pieces of rub rail on to these side panels. Like TJ, I'd recommend cutting them out together on the same curve.

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:45 am**

I'm in the middle of gluing in the inwale and it's definitely great to be moving forward.
But I will soon be presented with a crossroads.

I love the idea of leaving the seats, breasthook, and knees bright. However, I have always thought brightwork looks great if you have the money to pay someone to varnish your boat every year. I'm not interested in that job. But Rmarsh has kindly informed me that his very nice bright finish is two coats neat epoxy and two of varnish, which he says gives him years of life.
The problem with varnish is that, unlike paint, once it fails (which to me seems to be immediately

although it's probably a year) it is my experience that the entire surface must be sanded back to bare wood, or else you're left with obvious discoloration. I suppose the epoxy makes this unnecessary

but still, I'm wondering whether stains will remain. Unlike paint, you can't just sand out varnish and feather it in, or at least I can't without leaving a mark because I'm not, you know, a professional. Bateau now has a new 3.5-oz cloth that is very transparent, so perhaps a layer of that, several coats of epoxy, and then varnish will result in a lasting finish? I think that would work, but:

This brings up another problem I need to sort out. Jacques calls for glassing in the seats on the V10. My understanding is that the glass must go on the top edge of the seats, not below. Applying glass underneath would be an awkward job especially in the forward and aft seats, which are enclosed

. I can't see how you can glass in the seats and fair them out without destroying the bright look of the seats, although I know others have achieved this. I've seen these beautiful photos but not the explanations:

So did they not glass in the seats, just glue them to the cleats--or do they have another magic method that I have yet to imagine? One possibility is using the 3.5 cloth and glassing it from the sides straight across the seats. That way you wouldn't have a margin where the glass ends, requiring fairing. But it would add weight, and I don't know if this glass would have the requisite structural strength to stiffen the boat. I am also not at all confident that I could cut and lay that glass out in a manner that would be easy on the eyes

. Fairing the sides of the boat won't be a problem since the fairing will be hidden under the paint.

Any ideas? There must be a string on this but I haven't found an answer to this specific question.

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:15 am**

Are you going for a look that is acceptable to you and your friends and family, or, a showboat? If not quite a showboat, then a little bit of tape edge can be sand/feathered down enough, carefully. Bias is no good finished bright. The fibers and binding strings show. Some 4 oz is near invisible, even some 6 oz - depends on the batch. If you look close, you will see it, but from distance it looks good. My transom has glass on it. Now I don't remember if it was 4 or 6 oz. If you look close you can see it, but from a distance? This was a *good* roll of glass.

I checked. That is covered with 6 oz, filled and flowed carefully with neat epoxy.

Because I built a faux planked transom over the properly taped structural transom, the structural tape is completely hidden. I painted a narrow border anyway to conceal the little bit of faired edge of the faux transom. It added weight, yes. It turns heads, but more importantly.... I like it.

So, you could add a thin laminate (1/8 inch) over the official structure and go as bright as you please. I painted two or three coats of LPU over it. It looks the same as the day it dried, years later. It is not quite as nice as the picture of the final epoxy flowcoat, but that is because I messed up the clear LPU, a brand that is very temperamental, however, it still looks plenty good from a distance. Any problem is with the clear LPU, and not with seeing the glass. The LPU is protecting the epoxy beneath it. But it is a vertical surface. Horizontals take more of a beating from the sun. My boat is covered when not in use.

Yes, it changed color a little over time, drifting red orange, but that is as much the Doug Fir planking as it is the epoxy.

And I still like it.

BTW, if I had done this with my seat tops too, I would have used a small fillet and a thin painted edge again, to ease the hard spot that the laminate creates on the structural tape seam. Not that it would matter on a CV16....

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:20 am**

On the GF18 I'm building I used 6 oz woven cloth for some areas that being bright finished, like the rub rails. The cloth almost completely disappears after it's wet out, sanded and wet out again. We will use EMC clear coat over the epoxy for UV protection.

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:26 am**

Thanks, CL...do you think the 6 ounce would be fine structurally? I can't imagine it wouldn't, considering I'm already gluing to the cleats.

Wow ks8, excellent work, as usual, and I'm afraid above my pay grade but perhaps that won't stop me. I'm not looking to impress anyone (least of all my wife) but just to see what I can do.
I hadn't thought of a layer of veneer over the structural glass. Brilliant! Although I'm doubtful I could pull that off. Maybe. So you think another approach is to use woven, say, 6-oz. for the structural tabbing, carefully sand the edges of the tape, and then several coats of neat epoxy? What did you use for topcoat? It sure looks great. You have a touch and considerable patience.

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:41 am**

I added more to that post. Probably answering your questions.

Those pictures do not show the topcoat.... Mess. Maybe I'll take a couple of pictures today. Still looks good enough for me. But it would have been nice to look like the flowcoat of epoxy. As it is, I don't cringe from a bump or scrape now and then, like I might have. Good for the soul. As CL says, "It ain't nothing but a thing.".

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:21 pm**

I've sure got some pondering to do.
I've used LPU one time. Lotsa dough, especially for such a small area. I'll have to price it out. I'm just going to use Brightside on the boat as I can't justify the cost of LPU to myself at this point. Do you think any other clear finish would last?

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:10 pm**

After research I decided to use Epifanes varnish.
I put on two coats of epoxy over stained walnut wood and walnut ply (no glass) sanded between each coat of epoxy. I have built up three coats of varnish so far and the third coat really evened everything out.
My build is on hold but I hope to have five coats over the epoxt base, the depth is amazing, the epoxt base is worth 4 coats of varnish and better protection except UV.

see sales pitch below.......................................

Epifanes Clear Varnish, known around the world, is considered the ultimate in high gloss finish. This traditional marine varnish is based on tung oil, phenolic-modified alkyd resins and maximum U.V. absorbers. It has outstanding protection for all marine and household woods and can be applied to Interior and exterior woods above the waterline. It offers superior flow and durability. In addition, it has excellent flexibility and water resistance in all climate conditions.

Posted: **Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:12 pm**

Well, Epiphanes is a great varnish that I have used with some success. I have reverted to Cetol, though. Here's a sobering look at the field:
http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/ ... 576-1.html

I still am reluctant to have any brightwork on a boat that's going to be stored outside and take some abuse, however much I love it...but haven't decided. I know it will look good for a year, but I am a personal friend of the guy who is going to maintain the boat, and he is a bit of an idiot. Sand and re-varnish yearly? I don't think so

. It doesn't sound like much, I guess, except that, like I say....he's a flake.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:32 pm**

On the brightwork issue, I think I'm going to leave the center seat clear as well as the breasthook and knees. The gunwales would be nice but it's not my nature to show off plywood edges. The interior will be some sort of off-white, and there are many pictures on the forum of this kind of contrast and I like the look. Of course, this assumes that the assembly work can stand the light of day and doesn't require masking with tons of fairing, primer and paint. The bow and transom seats will have hatches which will be plastic and I for some reason I don't like the idea of besmirching the brightwork with a plastic hatch. So only the center seat. Then, I figure if the topcoat craps out after a year or two and I'm too lazy to sand and re-varnish, I'll just sand and paint, no harm done.

Coupla pitchurs:

The old man glues the inwales.

Inwales installed and planed. I think these will be covered with woven glass since they take a lot of abuse from banging oars and loading gear. So I'll have to round over the edges.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:19 pm**

Looks good. Is the block and tackle rigged to the frame (B?) there so you can pivot the boat to make it easier to reach? If so, I like that idea

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:42 pm**

Yep, that's what it's for. I put it there to weigh the boat but just left it since it isn't in the way and is handy.

Posted: **Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:56 pm**

Nice work TJ. Out of interest, how much did it weigh when you weighed it? Build is looking great! Thanks, Tim

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:26 am**

It was 75 pounds when I weighed it, before seats, knees, breasthook, inwales, inside fairing, and interior and topsides paint. Jacques says the target weight is 85 pounds so obviously I'm not going to make that

. I put another layer of woven cloth on the bottom and 6" above the chines, and also glassed in the skeg. These, I presume, are not part of the design weight. I also did a reasonable amount of fairing and there are three coats of S3 and four coats of epoxy/graphite on the bottom. I don't think I used an excessive amount of epoxy laying up the glass but then I'm sure I'm not on the Cracker Larry or Jacques level. In fact, probably not on any level

. I will definitely weigh again when I'm done and post the findings.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:35 am**

I've never built one that met designed weight either

I think only Jacques can do that.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:38 am**

Jacques, in a remark that surely was meant out of kindness, also reports that he built a V10 in seven hours. I don't doubt this for a minute, but it is my little fantasy, perhaps completely unjustified, that it had a "work boat" finish

. Seven hours is about what it takes me to build a saw horse.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:44 am**

Those weights are hull weight before fairing and painting.
I get them from my spreadsheet.

In the case of the V10 and other small dinghies, the plans do not show glass on the bottom. I owned several of those and they can last without glass on the bottom.

Yes, I did build a PK78 or D4 in 7 hours. That was 7 work hours, not 7 hours in a row and it was for a hull ready to fair and paint.
fairing and painting double or triple the labor.
Once, I did build a D12 in one week-end working about 10 hours. I launched the boat without any major sanding and painting and was fishing from it.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:03 am**

I don't doubt it...but bear in mind, you know what you are doing.
Also, I'm pretty sure the plans and process exist in your head, instead of on a website or piece of paper you need to consult and ponder and turn upside down and sideways, then go to the forum, ask questions, wait for you or ks8 or Larry--and others (all of whom are extraordinarily kind and generous) to weigh in, then scratch your head some more, then try it again with only a slight improvement in your confidence...all of which are, by the way, fantastically entertaining and I'm not kidding. So in one sense, I'm having more fun doing it the slow dumb way

.

But the main thing for me is that, as I said in the very beginning, I'm not in any hurry at all. I'm having such a good time working on the boat that, unlike most of the other builders, I really can't imagine I'll have more fun using it than building it. It'll be a job getting it down to the shore, whereas now I just walk out to my shop. And rowing is almost exactly like exercise...not my favorite thing

. I just don't really know what I'm going to do with myself when I get her done. At first, my main goal will be thinking up ways of going on excursions that get me in some kind of trouble...but that can't last forever.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:27 am**

Yes, I know the plans and don't have to refer to them very often, that speeds up things.
Plus, I am not very meticulous. Many of our builders work much better than I do but the main point you made is that one should enjoy the process. In that case, a few hours more or less do not matter.
Look at KS8 for example, there is no doubt that he enjoys building as much as using the boat.

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:13 am**

A little tinted epoxy under the foreward and after seats. The color is just to make it easier to see inside the hatches once the seats are glued in. No attempt to make it nice; in fact I like being able to observe what the boat looked like before fairing! I'm not going to waste any more epoxy with a second coat to get better coverage.

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:42 pm**

You've got me staring at my V12 plans again....

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:52 pm**

Looking good TJ! Thanks for the info re the weight. I'm the same as you - although I really enjoy using my FL12, I love the building process. Cheers, tim

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:57 pm**

timbamford: Yah, I'm pretty concerned I won't give a groat about rowing...so don't be surprised if I go slower and slower on the build, just to prolong the fun and postpone the work...

ks8: Didn't you already build a boat like this?

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:25 pm**

I built (am still tweaking) a CV16 swiss army knife, as my learning curve boat, but I also have V12, D5, and some of my own plans to consider. I like the lines of the V10 and V12, so I enjoy watching your build particularly because its a V10.

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:05 pm**

I built (am still tweaking) a CV16 swiss army knife,

That reminds me of an old friend who wrote and sung this...a long time ago. We are both old now.. Life is like a Swiss army knife. Got to be flexible and versatile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwB1eOIYxM4

Posted: **Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:50 am**

An old friend of Jimmy Buffett....I'm impressed!
But on the other hand, ummmm...you better skip my chapter on Junior Walker

.
Don't want to do nuthin' to upset you. Just rip it out now before you are tempted...oh, I guess that's not possible with a Kindle. Just promise not to read it. It's called "Parrot Talk". I knew that was going to get me in trouble some day.
Just try not to hate me.

Here's the backstory: A couple of decades ago when Buffett was at his peak, I liked all his tunes. But then I noticed that every single sailing gathering had to play nothing but Buffett and you could hear him walking down the marina. There was no escape. So naturally, I rebelled. Around that time I crewed to Hawaii on the boat of one of my best sailing buddies. Since he knew that I had developed a distaste for Buffett, he of course played it nonstop to Hawaii for 2 1/2 weeks. That was the captain's prerogative and I don't like to be ungrateful crew. But the die was cast, so when I wrote that chapter it was specifically meant for him. Insulting other people was what I would call "collateral damage." By the way, none of this ever had any effect on our friendship, and I'm sure he'd say the same.

I know I'm in deep doo-doo here with you guys from the southeast

.

Posted: **Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:43 am**

So I was kinda worried about running out of epoxy because I have 1/2 gallon left and a ways to go. It appears that I am one of those who sands off 90% of the fairing I put on, since I am inept at the original application. Anyway, I had some old West System epoxy but the hardener had turned amber. Asking around I heard this wasn't a problem and Joel said it was OK to mix brands as long as I made sure the previous coat was cured, sanded, and cleaned. That's why you see different colors in the fairing; different epoxies with microballoons. BUT one thing I sorta forgot is that I have slow-cure MarinEpoxy and had gotten used to that nice, forgiving rhythm, whereas my West System was fast cure

. But anyway, after a bit of frantic application I got it on.

A bit hard on the back doing the sanding but it's getting done. I'm using power tools on the inside for the most part because there's little room for the longboard. I'm not surprised that I don't enjoy this as much as the outside which was all by hand but it's faster. However, there are many nooks and crannies on the inside and I don't have my techniques well-honed for that kind of thing. Where skill is lacking, much patience is required

.

Posted: **Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:57 am**

Looks like you're getting it done, nice progress.

Working neatly saves time, too.

Posted: **Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:11 pm**

Looking great!!

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:13 am**

I haven't posted any updates for awhile because despite hours of trying

I cannot compose a post that makes sanding interesting. So for a month or six weeks I've been putting fairing compound on the inside and sanding it off in a manner reminiscent of Sisyphus pushing his rock up the hill only to have it roll back down again.

One thing I will say about gooping and sanding, though, is that it is pleasantly mindless and doesn't involve any of that tiresome and cursed thinking. So it was with mixed feelings that I came out to the boat one day and noticed that the fairing was probably done enough for now, and it was time to move along. This meant I had to contemplate and plan my next step, which consumed a fretful week of time. I've now progressed to considering installing the cleats and seats. I made patterns even though I think somewhere along the line I read it wasn't necessary but I think that must have been written by one of the smart guys. I don't for a minute trust myself with that next sheet of plywood, because these are the first cuts I'm going to make that aren't guided by the measurements of Jacques, in whose wisdom I put my trust. So here we are. The curved cutouts will be traced on the wood; I don't need them on the patterns.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:44 am**

At that stage, it is safe to use cardboard patterns.
The plans dimensions are accurate but . . .
It's not easy to reproduce exactly the curves I show,
I can't guarantee that all plywood will bend the same way,
The corners are filled with tape and fillets, you must round them,
Small mistakes may creep in.

In other words, what you do is correct.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:03 pm**

Understood, Jacques. Wish me luck

. I need it more than some builders.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:45 pm**

terrulian wrote:... I've been putting fairing compound on the inside and sanding it off in a manner reminiscent of Sisyphus pushing his rock up the hill only to have it roll back down again.

Certainly more gender appropriate than the Daughters of Danaus. Also, because the imagery of an eternity of leaking water isn't the most positive for building a boat.

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:57 pm**

I admit I had to Google the daughters myth...
But yes, maybe we best stay away from a water problem, like bailing. Hope I don't have to do that because of some miscue on the construction!!

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:47 pm**

Of course, the water problem was minor

, considering forty-nine of them all murdered their husbands on their wedding nights...

[When it comes to Greek classics, I prefer C.S. Lewis' re-invention of Cupid and Psyche, in *Till We Have faces*.

... but no boats there. Too bad. But a ship is mentioned in chapter five... if that counts? ]

Posted: **Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:42 pm**

Good on you for being a scholar of the classics.
If I've read CS Lewis it was many decades ago.
For sailing yarns it is hard to beat the Odyssey. Have you heard of a book by Tim Severin called The Ulysses Voyage?
I highly recommend it to sailors and boatbuilders. Severin reproduces a bronze-age galley using bronze-age methods and uses it to recreate Odysseus' trip home from Troy. He makes a very strong case.

http://www.amazon.com/Ulysses-Voyage-Se ... ses+voyage

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:05 pm**

I'm hoping Severin, and you, will never have to whittle a huge wooden stake .... and.... beware the Siren song. Next thing you know.... ten years have gone by, and poor Penelope has had to put up with all those *boisterous men*.

Greek classics scholar? Hardly. Had my required reading like so many others, and with age, appreciation of some things grows. Doesn't mean I agree with them, but I can see better now why they stand the test of time, whether or not they should.

It may just be that now and then, mankind needs some extreme and bizarre warnings, because mankind has fits of being extreme and bizarre, moreso lately -- but there are better encouragements, and more effective warnings, no doubt.

Still, impressive to shoot an arrow through a dozen axe handles.... as the *revealing*, just before handily dispatching the *boisterous men* -- to the underworld.

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:16 pm**

I thought little of it when I was first required to read it, but in my mature years, the Odyssey has become my favorite book. We were able to cross Odysseus' wake off Cape Sounion, and berthed at Frikes on Ithaka for awhile to explore the Island. I didn't take the photo below but this is where we were.

Posted: **Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:43 pm**

nice

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:09 pm**

Finally a bit of photographic evidence of progress.

I certainly didn't trust myself to cut those radii, or -esses, or, you know, curves, freehand, so I made a little radius jig for the sabre saw. Everything seems to have come out OK, but there's a bit of cleaning up to do and the bow and stern seats will need holes for deck plates.

Posted: **Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:15 pm**

Wishing I had thought of using a jig for those curves now. I did mine free hand, then rasped them into a cleaner shape. It worked, but a jig would have been cleaner.

Posted: **Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:01 pm**

Well, it was kind of a hassle, at least the way I do things. Cutting each radius required a different setup, even the ones with the same dimensions, because the jig only went in one direction and the cuts are on different corners.

Here's something I found amazing, given my level of craftsmanship. Many of the builders are using strongbacks, and the frames can be setup perfectly square before the hull is attached. But the V10 is built without that assurance of squareness. I zip-tied everything, including the attachment of the frames to the hull, which I tried to match to layout lines on the hull so they were properly placed. I didn't imagine that this was a particularly accurate way of assembly, especially in my hands. But lo and behold, when I cut the seats and put them in for a dry fit, they are just as square as can be. The stern seat and center seat are level with each other as you can see in the photo, and both are square to the frames. The only way I can figure out how this happened is that Jacques designed the plans in a way that would outsmart an idiot--in other words, be literally fool-proof! I'm sure luck played a significant role, too.

Posted: **Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:58 am**

Posted: **Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:04 pm**

Tony, I started your book last night and read a couple of chapters. Enjoying it so far. Mrs. Cracker finished it already and said she liked it too

Posted: **Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:10 am**

When Amazon straightens out my account (

), I'll be ordering it too. Or New Years, I'll find it elsewhere.

Posted: **Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:03 pm**

Thanks very much, Larry. It really means something coming from boat people...or is that the wrong term???

Did you examine the storage diagram?

Posted: **Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:33 pm**

OK, a little more progress.

I cut holes in the bow and stern seats for hatches. The stern ones are large to accommodate fenders and with the holes cut the seat was just a tiny bit springy so I added some mat and a strip of 3/8" meranti. I'm pretty sure this is overkill and it added some weight but it is now stiff as the proverbial board in case a sumo wrestler jumps down into the dinghy. This view shows the seat upside down. Kinda looks like a two-seater outhouse. Jacques'drawing shows a cleat on the forward side of the aft frame as well as the after side, but I am skipping the one in front except for the parts below the triangular bits in front of the frame. I like the cleaner look and am pretty sure the seat will be well supported without it. A rare case where I'm not following the plans.

Here's the bow seat, also upside down. Both it and the stern seat have a coat of epoxy with pigment. I've got plenty so I thought having it on the underside of the seat may increase visibility a very modest amount because of reflection. I know this is theoretically possible according to quantum theory. You'll also notice a border around the edge of the seats. I taped this area off before the epoxy coat so that when the seats are glued to the cleats I'll get a firmer bond.

Below are cleats getting a coat or two of epoxy before attachment.

Here you see that port and starboard at seat level I have a line of 1" masking tape. I'm going to fair and prime up to this line, since after the seats are in this will be, um, uncomfortable. Being uncomfortable means I know I'll do a sloppier job so I'm going to get as much of this done as I can before the seats are permanently affixed. I'm not fairing above the seat level since they will all get attached to the hull with epoxy and woven cloth, and this will require that this area gets faired after the seats are in.

Finally, a shipment of stuff for the topcoat. It's getting exciting, but this is a month away or more.

Posted: **Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:15 pm**

I am very glad I made my lockers white. It helps at night, to maximize even a small flashlight. Maybe you will see what I mean soon.

Of course, we will need a picture of the jumping Sumo wrestler, when in the boat, out on the water.

Posted: **Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:34 am**

Tony - finished your book it was great - passed it on to my 83 year old DAD and told him to plan on a 2017 trip!

I see you are using flag blue also - my choice also - anxious to see how that color goes for you.

We close on house in late December with workshop and dock on the C Bay so I can get back to my build after about a year off while we were between houses. I also stiffen seats etc for jumping off docks into boat.

Posted: **Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:41 am**

Thanks for the kind words on the book, tcason.
I put a lot of thought into the color scheme but I have very little talent in this area so I'm going to just cross my fingers. I'll certainly post pictures.

Posted: **Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:01 pm**

tcason wrote:... I also stiffen seats etc for jumping off docks into boat.

Are you Tony's *Sumo wrestler*?

Posted: **Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:37 am**

tcason...
As I said, I think I went too far on the stiffening. If I did it again I would use 1/4" plywood instead of 3/8" and about 1/2 as wide. The mat is probably a good idea but I bet I could have done fine without it. Anyway, there was never a concern that the seat would fail structurally, just that the bending may result over time in the partial release of the silicone used to seal the hatches. I'm sure Jacques could figure the stresses and strengths out mathematically but all I can do is add and subtract with moderate reliability. I'm not going to do anything to stiffen the bow seat because both the hole and seat are smaller and it's very stiff as it is, nor the center seat which has no hole.

Posted: **Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:10 pm**

Merry Christmas, everyone. I couldn't help but notice that Jacques was working on Christmas day!

I put three coats of S3 primer on the part of the interior below the middle seat.

This is bitter sweet since it reveals stuff like this:

I'll be addressing these with Quick Fair. On the outside of the boat, this required a few runs at it and more coats of primer with the result that I used a lot of primer. Not sure how to get around this.

Anyway, look what I got for Christmas

I wanted the oarlocks to live on the oars and am going to try oval instead of round. It'll be quite a while before I know if I made a good choice. If not, it will be a bit of a pain to change them since I'll have to remove the leathers and buttons.

Posted: **Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:22 pm**

A little Quick Fair smeared in with your finger will fix those pin holes. They always show up after primer.

I like my oar locks attached to the oar too. Those look good.

Merry Christmas!

Posted: **Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:25 am**

Yesterday was a day of discouragements. The kind of day where you do a lot of talking to yourself. For example, out loud I may be heard to say at a volume that in retrospect I hope cannot be overheard by neighbors, “Johnson, you are a $%~!*#@ IDIOT!!” I have to use the cursing from cartoons, it’s so bad. It seems none of you esteemed and temperate gentlemen have such days, or if you ever do, you are too mannerly and well-bred to speak of them.

First off, after applying 3 coats of the S3 and looking at matters with a strong light, I found the results to be considerably more horrifying than my wishful thinking had pictured. There will be lots of sanding, Quick Fair, and more coats of primer.

Secondly, there is an ongoing issue with the bow eye. I had become a little overconfident because when I first eyeballed and drilled the two holes for the u-bolt, which must be exactly parallel for it to fit, I lucked out. I mean, you know, no big deal, just drill a couple of holes. But after proceeding to the next step, drilling with a larger bit, filling with epoxy, and then re-drilling for the correct size, I was all over the place. “Oh, I’ll just hog that out a little,” I say to myself. Well, the hogging turned into aggressive drilling and before long I had holes the size of Duluth. I’d say Houston, but I don’t want you to get the impression I am exaggerating. So what I did was go get a piece of metal rod, cut it in half, and drill out a 2x4 with holes that were parallel. Then I stuck the rods in and clamped them to a square upright board measured in the middle of the boat. But this by itself won’t do because the epoxy will just drip out if you put these all the way through the hull. Don't ask me how I know this. So I put some tape on the outside, then some epoxy in the holes, let it kick, and then drilled down to about ¼” from the outside of the hull with an oversized drill, to create a plug. Then I put my jig in place and coated the rods with releaser. Next, with a syringe, I tried to get epoxy around the rods. If there is any dumber, more cumbersome, Rube Goldberg way of achieving this process, I haven’t thought of it yet, but when I do you can be sure I’ll be using it. What we need here is an emoti for banging your head against the wall. I'll let you know how it comes out.

Posted: **Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:33 pm**

It seems none of you esteemed and temperate gentlemen have such days, or if you ever do, you are too mannerly and well-bred to speak of them.

Tony, you crack me up

Trust me, we all have days like that

I had one yesterday too. My beautifully glassed trolling motor battery compartment didn't allow enough clearance to install the batteries with them in the boxes. I cut down both boxes and tried again. No go, 3/8" too tight

These are group 27 (heavy!) deep cycles under the foredeck. Beat my arms to death. Pulled them back out for a 3rd. time. Had to cut off flush one of the glassed in securing cleats, under the dang deck, that was fun, then re-epoxy the raw edges, then re-install the big azz batteries for the 4th time, then make a new hold down bracket out of Starboard and install that. And I won't even mention the on-board dual bank charger that weighs a ton and is also mounted under the deck on Starboard mounting pads. More than one bad word left my mouth, but luckily I don't have any close neighbors

Most things on this boat I have done at least twice. I've screamed, cussed and cried, but never quit. It's easy to get frustrated and half azz a quick fix, but better to keep perspective and do it right, again. We learn something from every mistake.

I made a jig very similar to yours for drilling the bow and transom eyes. That is the only way to keep the bolt holes parallel. I learned this the same way you did, several boats back

Now I always use a drilling jig for those. But I'll screw up something else, probably before the day is over. Or find something that I screwed up on previously that is keeping something else from fitting today. Like I recently was installing the trim tab pump, and found that there wasn't enough clearance with the fuel filter housing and shut-off valve, so had to relocate the fuel filter, and the shut off valve, but the trim relay was in the way of that, so had to relocate it too....rod holders interfering with bait tank pumps and outlet, got to move one or the other...and so it goes

Build on.

Posted: **Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:44 pm**

It's a sorry thing to have to take solace in the misery of others, but I'm grateful for it and I'm sure solace is what you intended. Your difficulties certainly put mine in perspective. Believe me, every time I screw up something simple, I think of you and others whose projects are infinitely more complex and challenging, and somehow you get through it. Not an exaggeration to say it's an inspiration to the rest of us.

Posted: **Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:06 pm**

It's a sorry thing to have to take solace in the misery of others,

Not true. Misery loves company

And a big crooked hole isn't misery, it's just a nuisance you can fix. Nothing but a thing. Finding out your wife has cancer, or your son has been in a bad accident is misery. Perspective is everything

I think of you and others whose projects are infinitely more complex and challenging, and somehow you get through it.

You sailed around the frigging world

That's quite a complex challenge

You'll get this boat built, right.

Posted: **Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:12 pm**

It's very similar in a way, as I'm sure you know. Day after day you're attempting things you've never had to do before, like jury rigging an antenna, and you just figure it out, as they say, one day at a time. Only thing is, sometimes you're somewhere they don't speak your language.
For some reason, though, when things piled up and looked insurmountable, neither of us ever felt like quitting, even for a minute. Never entered our minds.

Posted: **Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:24 pm**

Got the cleats for the stern seat in. Since I cut the two big holes for hatches, all I had to do was put the seat in place, square it up, goop up the middle of the cleats with epoxy and hot glue on the ends, then reach in and put them right up against the hull and bottom of the seat.

The result is the cleats are perfectly placed...BUT, since I couldn't see what I was doing, I was a little shy on applying the epoxy/wood floor mix, so they are not affixed with as much surface area as I'd like. I was worried I was going to accidentally attach the seat bottom, which I'm not ready for as yet. However, when I do finally glue the seat tops in, I'll put enough goop in to make up for that. In addition, the seats will be glassed in. So I don't think I'm going to fret about it. The bow and center seats will get a more liberal amount of what I'll call bondage. By the way, one of the builders was talking about pigment in epoxy not being a good topcoat. Here's where I have it, under the seats.

Posted: **Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:03 pm**

I like the hot glue trick. Might try something like that with a couple little dabs of construction adhesive.

Posted: **Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:28 am**

So yesterday I glued in the cleats on the bow seat and had questionable results for a completely different reason. I used plenty of goop, and reached in the hatch hole to put the cleats right under the seat. But when I took the seat off to have a look at my genius work, it turned out that since I couldn't see, I had nudged one of the cleats completely out of the way when placing another one. Luckily, it was removable, so I stuck it in again, this time with the seat removed, and just using the layout line. This turned out to be not nearly as accurate as shoving the cleat in there firmly against the seat as I had done on the stern. But I let it kick and the only downside is that the errant cleat is a little low, so I'll be using a lot of wood flour/epoxy to fill the space when I actually glue the seat in. My technique is, you might say, a work in progress.

Going on our traditional January 1st hike, about 8 miles round trip out Bear Valley in Point Reyes to Arch Rock overlooking the Pacific, to welcome in the New Year. Best wishes to you all.

Posted: **Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:55 pm**

Except for the extreme obssessive compulsive fanatic who insists on building an entire boat in one big mix and cure of epoxy so that no secondary bonds are needed at all, and all the epoxy and seams are one huge intertwined polymerised molecule...

you are going to have secondary, i.e. *mechanical* epoxy bonds. As soon as that is accepted, all sorts of other techniques come to mind, to make the build much less stressful.

For instance, bonding support cleats to hull sides. If you look at my stern seat hull cleat, it may look like a perfect and gap free bond. But it wasn't!

The goop ran before it set, and caused some gaps and craters.

starboard stern hull seat support cleat

I sanded and filed after the cure, to get *tooth* for the mechanical bond, and then filled and smoothed it long before actually bonding the seat on. The idea is that, for me, the seat top bond was going to be a little more hectic, getting my finger under there through the hatch, to smooth the fillet. So, I didn't want to put oceanic amounts of goop on there just to fill the gaps. Nope. Made it nice and smooth and level first, after the initial attachment bond had cured. Did the same with a cleat that insisted to cure * a little low*. I build it up before the seat top bond, so there was less insanity with dry spot and lava flows during the actual seat top bond.

It mostly worked as planned.

I also had green masking paper taped in the compartment before the final *top on*, so that the worst free blobs, if any, could be easily pulled out after the cure. Next build I'll have plastic wrap under the masking paper locker liner, in case an unusually wet blob soaks into and through the paper, so it doesn't glue the paper to the boat.

When it was time for the *seat on*, I only had to think about enough goop to ooze enough to make a small fillet, and no need to fill any large gaps or valleys by then.

The *seat on* final goop scoopin'.

It all worked out nicely....

Inside job.

Practice makes... habitual. And there are some habits that are very good to have. We should make up another word for the bad ones, and stop giving *habit* a bad rap. I had a few hull cleats worth of practice. The mid cleats are two strips laminated to lock in the curve, before bonding into the boat. Still had to fudge them too after they were all stucked in *mostly* where they belonged.

Practice.

Enjoy the big moment more with some careful planning and rehearsing. This theater of life doesn't always allow it, but its plenty possible right now.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:20 am**

Thanks, ks8.
Unlike you, I am not going to go for a nicely faired interior to the bow and stern lockers. I do remember many years ago, on my big boat, constructing some very nice removable stitch-and-glue mahogany plywood bins that fit under seats in the saloon. This way I had access to the interior of the hull if I needed to for...um, a hole in the hull??? That would never happen??

It was always nice to open the locker and see a very well finished interior. But here, I'm not going to do that. Fairing the interiors would add weight, take time and materials, and additionally, hide the construction of the boat. I think it will be cool to be able to show anyone that is curious (I imagine this number may not add up to any more than a fraction of one human being) what the construction of the boat looks like before it is covered in goop and paint. Considering that these particular lockers will be used for stuff that gets dirty like lines and fenders and maybe a small anchor, I don't want to indulge their narcissistic desire to be irrelevantly pretty. Beckson, who makes the deck plates, also makes a storage bag insert to stow stuff like keys and wallet, etc., so this will suffice for the clean stuff.
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/beckson-m ... 26_002_500

As for getting the seat tops down without creating a complete mess inside, I think I'll do a version of your use of plastic and/or masking paper to avoid blobs on the interior when I glue them in place. Even though I'm not going to make them nicer, no reason to make them worser!! Also, with regard to the space that I inadvertently created because of the bow cleats that had to be mounted to a line and are 1/8" or so lower than they should be, I think I'll put a pile of goop on top of the low spots on the cleats, and then put packing tape on the bottom of the seat edges in those areas, put the seat in place and smash it down, reach in and do my best to clear the stuff that has oozed out, and after the goop is green, take out the seat top. This should give me a perfect ledge like I achieved in the stern. Actually, perhaps the use of the term "perfect" is not suitable here

. That way, it'll be less of a mess when I actually glue the seats down.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:47 am**

I like the idea of making the inside of compartments smooth, although not necessarily perfectly fair. It helps a lot when cleaning to be able to sponge out an area without shredding the sponge, and it's nice to not have big dirt traps.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:08 am**

That's a very good point, pee wee. I'll take it into consideration for sure. I think I've eliminated actual sharp spots that would tear anything but I'll double check. However, I'm not going to get rid of dirt traps because that would mean filling the weave. It's a dinghy, it'll be art on the day it's launched but get trashed starting that day or the next one, and I don't have a good record of cleaning out lockers anyway unless they are holding stuff like food or clothes.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:34 pm**

Sounds like you're no stranger to such projects.

Plenty of spare packing tape around the edge too, so the seat doesn't get glued down before you want it to. Sometimes in that kind of operation, the goop can ooze up and around the packing taped edge and still lock the top in. I had to use a mallet to pop some things off the packing tape. The epoxy didn't want to let go even of the packing tape.

But the persuader mallet did its persuading. Gentle taps, if there is room to swing it.

I imagine you know all that, but as I've said in the past, sometimes I include a few more details for the sake of any newbies reading these posts. When I began my build, the internet was still a barren wasteland when it came to good practical info and experience, at least regarding boat building questions (

). The pros out there kept everything secret, job security, consulting fees. (I'm not trying to put them out of a job). Professional consulting, for some projects, is worth every penny for such projects.

Those who were in support on several forums, would say only enough to technically be correct, I think, sometimes not realizing that new builders do not have the same background of experience to see how simple their answer is. My personality needs more, some substantial *why* questions answered (the eternal three year old

), so if things go unexpectedly, as they can so easily do, I have a broader background wisdom ready to fudge out a solution. So don't think I'm trying to tell you, Tony, every detail, as if you've never seen a boat before, and never mixed a batch of epoxy.

I'm still very inexperienced in things *boat and fishing*, but not like 10 years ago. My ignorance is an easier sell than my experienced wisdom, but at least I know it.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:01 pm**

Even if I did the same job a week ago, I've been known to leave out a step, so a reminder, no matter how seemingly obvious, is always welcome

.

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:37 am**

I just found these at a local store for a dollar and a half. Amazon wants $5.78 plus shipping for them...but anyway, these are the best things I've found for creating different radii when doing fillets. Each corner has a different radius and I've found that very useful.
http://www.amazon.com/Fox-Run-Pot-Scrap ... d_sxp_f_pt

Posted: **Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:25 pm**

Here's a shot of the shop I'm building my little V10 in. I built it more than three decades ago with a skill saw, a hammer, a level, and a square. Maybe a mud knife and some string, too, I don't know.
The corners don't look plumb because of my special kind of stupid photography. Everything's straight, it's not going to tumble. We just got through a bunch of storms and I haven't picked up all the dreet from the trees yet. I'm going to get to it on Tuesday of some year or another. The thing under the blue tarp is the table saw that I had to evict to make room for the boat. It doesn't complain but I'm not sure what it will look like by the time it sits out all winter. So far, it runs fine.

It's heated and pretty cheery inside, but a mess. I'm not a tidy worker like some of y'all.

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:32 pm**

Well now.... someone has to ask the question... right? How are you going to ..... ?

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:56 pm**

ks8 wrote:Well now.... someone has to ask the question... right? How are you going to ..... ?

Maybe the roof hinges up.

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:47 pm**

Hmmmm...never thought of that!

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:00 pm**

Tony, I finished your book last night, it was a very good read. Enjoyed it a lot

That Mr. Shrode is a very versatile fellow. The fact that you still speak after 2 years on a boat says a lot

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:15 pm**

Thanks for the kind words, Larry.
Mr. Shrode, who is my partner on our Catalina 22 (but who is not helping to build my V10 which will be our tender), is still my favorite guy to sail with. He is every bit the man described in the book and more, in addition to being a humble soul. I can't say we never had a cross word but it was extremely rare and brief, and considering you're with another person 24 hours a day for 2 1/2 years in sometimes stressful and uncomfortable circumstances, that is kind of amazing. All credit for that is due to him. Just as amazing is that we both have wives understanding enough to put up with this kind of nonsense. When we were out there my wife, when asked, said "I'm not worried about him while he's gone. I'm worried about when he comes back."

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:57 pm**

considering you're with another person 24 hours a day for 2 1/2 years in sometimes stressful and uncomfortable circumstances, that is kind of amazing. All credit for that is due to him

Bullshit. It takes both of you to pull that off.

Just as amazing is that we both have wives understanding enough to put up with this kind of nonsense.

I've got one of those too

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:45 pm**

I was going to put on a coat or two of S3 today but I found a couple of small areas that needed a tiny bit more QuikFair so I decided to make the knees while that kicked.
I cut the pieces to fit the corners by making cardboard patterns and then got out the radius jig to create the curves. The plans call for a 7" radius on the main curve but I used 12" and then 3" for the ends.

I wasn't sure whether to use a double thickness of 3/8" plywood so I just cut one layer, then used that as a pattern for a second. I used the router with a trimming bit to copy the curves and then rounded them over, but the square sides, after cutting, needed some planing to match the angle of the hull. After trying it with and without the second layer I'm going to use the full 3/4" inch thickness. I'm sure it is not necessary structurally and it adds a little weight but it looks and feels more substantial.

I haven't glued the halves together yet so I still have time to reconsider if someone on the forum can think of a reason I should stick with the one piece. It's all just dry fit for now.

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:04 pm**

I presume that by going with a 12" radius you've marginally weakened the strength of the legs of the knees, and therefore doubling them may be a good idea. Then again, a few weeks ago I never thought the Seahawks were going to do very well in the post season!

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:52 pm**

I don't think the radius has weakened the strength of the knee. I could not make the knees look like the drawings in the plans using a 7" radius, which looks more just like a divot rather than a sweeping curve. That was my real reasoning. But your point is well taken. I've surveyed a lot of pictures of the boat, and builders are all over the place in regard to the shape of the knees.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:08 pm**

It feels strangely awkward (as it should) typing it in public, but.... I like the look of those knees.

Does your V12 blush?

I think what is most important with the knees is that - they need to at least do what they were engineered to do for the area in which they were engineered to do it, and, if modified, they have to not move a stress load to another area that was not designed for that stress load. And finally, if modified, they have to Not give an impression that a load can now be increased in an area where the modified knee is not really adequately compensating for the larger or relocated load, if the reserve strength margins of the original engineering are to remain unchanged.

As an example: if you want to hang a heavier engine on the transom, not greater HP, but just heavier (one that would not negatively affect the waterline trim with realistic ballast redistribution) and you therefore increase the scantlings for the knees, that does not mean that the larger knees alone will adequately support the heavier engine. The transom may also need to be partially or fully doubled. An engine pad may need to be added, or a full width clamping board. Additional glass may be needed under the knees. On a monocoque structure, any component of it is not really an individual component or *thought*, but begins to affect the entire area into which it is *welded in*, and into the surrounding areas too. It is not always that critical and complicated. Sometimes it is a very simple and uneventful thing, purely visual. But if a stress load will be increased or shifted appreciably, then the modification needs to have a correspondingly respectful amount of thoughtful attention given it.

Remember too that good engineering is not always consisting only of properly locating needed strength. Good engineering also can steer a failure to an intentional location and type of failure, if a failure does occur. I'd like to think that such is not a needful consideration here.

Its a V12. It is not a planing hull with a 70 HP hanging on the back of it. It is not towing a garbage barge with its transom ubolts. But if you (or someone else) hangs an oddly heavy low HP engine on the transom, then it is not a bad idea to mention the weight, and ask what transom mods might also be necessary.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:05 pm**

ks8, I just love to hear you talk

.

As Jacques has said on a similar matter if not this exact one, as long as the dimensions on the plans are followed, variations on the aesthetic design will not affect strength. I think I've done that here. The knees are laid out to the numbers on the plans and only the main curvature has been altered. But even there, as I said above, this was done to emulate the drawings since I could not achieve the right look with the smaller radius. Some builders just leave it as a straight line, creating a triangle, and forego the curve. But I like the graceful look of the curve, which is echoed in the seats and breasthook.

PS, a V10, not V12. Wouldn't be able to fit that in my van!

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:50 pm**

terrulian wrote:ks8, I just love to hear you talk .

I accept the encouragement, soberly, with respect to personal dangers relevant to myself, far exceeding any presumptive speculations on the part of my critics.

Most
Sincerely
and respectfully composed
for your enjoyment,

Wilkins Micawber

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:14 pm**

A fine gentleman, indeed.

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:59 pm**

Yes, he is

Posted: **Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:49 pm**

Not that Micawber is my mentor....

I remember the day I bought my first copy of David Copperfield. On the back cover was a review of the book, and Dickens, in general. The reviewer basically spoke of the enduring entertainment readers get from Dickens' cartoonishly outlandish characters (to paraphrase). As I actually read the book, I began to struggle with whether or not I feel sorry, in a way, for that reviewer, imagining that the man simply must never *get out* and visit or befriend any real people. Of course, I don't know him personally, and that is rudely presumptuous of me to say, but the review itself does seem to reveal him to be an example of his own evaluation, maybe, a little bit.

I have met several (and enjoyed some of them) of Dicken's supposedly cartoonishly outlandish characters, in the real world. Of course they don't have the same names, but somehow it is very easy to a particular Dickens type character in them. Many of them very fine people indeed -- colorful? -- certainly, but no less genuine and true for the color.

I do hope, that if that reviewer is a fellow boat builder (I have absolutely no one specifically in mind), and reads this post, I hope he can understand that this post is not meant as an attack on him at all, but a hope, that surely by now, if he were to write that review over, it would be .... notably different.

If years and the universe itself are not devised so as to bring forth the *man intended* by the One who speaks us forth, then hope is indeed very hard to find, or even define. That doesn't mean that there aren't any others trying to do all they can to muck up that good work.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Little round planet
In a big universe
Sometimes it looks blessed
Sometimes it looks cursed
Depends on what you look at obviously
But even more it depends on the way that you see

excerpt from *Child of the Wind* by Bruce Cockburn
------------------------------------------------------------------

True, even T.S. Eliot said of Dickens, "Dickens excelled in character; in the creation of characters of greater intensity than human beings."

Yet it surprises me still to hear that from him. Maybe I'm just too intense myself? I see myself quite the opposite.

There. Now Dickens and Micawber and Eliot and Cockburn are immortalized on your V10 thread. Jimmy Buffet already has a home on some other threads.

Did I say, I like the look of those knees?

Posted: **Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:50 pm**

I see we were waxing poetic when last I posted about some progress. I actually know nothing of Cockburn having ceased listening to new music at the birth of disco. Elliot and Dickens are favorites and no one should go to his grave without reading at least Copperfield, which I believe was his favorite.

Been going slow, but progress has been made. Sometimes it takes me a week to convince myself that I really cannot accept the fairing and must do another round.

Anyway, got the oarlock sockets dry fitted today. Jacques says he prefers the other style that is screwed to the gunwale instead of installed in a hole bored straight through. I haven't heard his reason but I may have found out why. The hole being drilled is 11/16" and you don't want to just eyeball it. At first I thought I'd use a doweling jig but mine only goes up to 1/2". So I used a drill guide like this and, after screwing it to a piece of plywood, clamped the whole assembly to the inwale.

That seemed to work fine but it sure made me nervous. Here's the result:

Jacques said he wasn't happy with the simple hole itself so I've devised a reinforcement plate to be glued underneath the oarlock pads with little braces. In the photo they're just held in place with double-sided tape:

I think with enough epoxy this should stiffen things substantially and I hope sufficiently.

Posted: **Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:30 pm**

Nice work TJ. The word "classic" comes to mind. Being unimaginative and lazy, I'm using the ones Jacques likes. Serviceable, but definitely not as pretty.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:27 pm**

Sometimes my wife will use the word "classic" to describe things I do, most often followed by "blunder."
Thanks, though...what kind of gtcoupe are we talking?

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:01 pm**

terrulian wrote:Sometimes my wife will use the word "classic" to describe things I do, most often followed by "blunder."
Thanks, though...what kind of gtcoupe are we talking?

The gtcoupe refers to a 65 mustang I commuted in and drag raced for about 12 years. Still kinda miss that car, but it eventually got too quick (read that uncontrollable) for street use.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:05 pm**

We use to have a 66 Mustang that was bad to the bone. It would run 100 mph in second gear and squeal the tires when you shifted to 3rd. Mrs. Cracker once flew from Miami to Savannah in it, 525 miles in 3 hours even

Wish I still had that car, but better I don't, or my son would have already killed himself in it.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:19 pm**

Fun little cars. Mine did 11.0 in the quarter mile at 124 mph. I think a good driver could have hit mid 10's. No bueno on the street with that power though.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:04 pm**

I had a '51 Chevy. The front end started vibrating at 53 mph, so I always knew I was under 55. Does that count? Speedometer was broken, but I knew what pitch 50 mph was, in third gear, and kept a harmonica on the seat to confirm it. Also knew what note was 30, 35, 40, 45 mph. It worked. Never got pulled over for playing the harmonica while driving, but if I had, it would have been an interesting explanation...

Miss that car. Lots of fun. Lots of metal to protect a Cracker Jr.

Oh my! Disco is the last thing you heard in your ears???!!

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:48 am**

No, I still listen to music but don't keep up. I'm a fan of traditional country and traditional R&B and soul and what they used to call "beach music" down where some of you guys live. They pretty much quit making that stuff several decades ago, although there are exceptions. Therefore I never latched on to disco, punk, metal, or rap. I don't mind an occasional Shakira or Beyonce video, though.

In regard to cars: In 1969 I bought a brand new Ford van which took me through much of the middle part of my life and was the perfect vehicle to carry gear to gigs, or to travel. I nursed it along until 2004 when I took it to a yard to be scrapped. Cradle to the grave on that one. In the 1980s I had enough extra cash to buy a completely trashed MGB and promptly blew up the engine. I rebuilt the entire car starting with the crank (not the drive train, though) and suspension through the upholstery and body work. Amazingly, the Lucas electrical system only had one minor bad connection and henceforth never had a hiccup. In 2006 the car needed restoring again but I didn't want to undertake that so I started to price it out and came up with around $10,000, and realized that for that kind of money I'd still have a lousy heater/defroster, it would leak in the winter, and had no safety gear. I'm now old enough that I care about that sort of thing

...So I started driving cars and found out that even a regular old sedan, a modern one that is, was faster on its feet and better around curves than my dear old MG. So I drove the modern version, a Mazda MX-5, and it felt like I was hallucinating. I don't think life would be quite the same without a small roadster and I know I don't want to live that way, so I got one. I know some guys may think it's a pussy car, but I can scare myself in it

...of course, see above about being old

. Sorry for the long excursus from boat building...but this all started when I asked gtcoupe what the gtcoupe was.

Posted: **Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:00 pm**

These are things of which some boat builders are made, making it relevant, with the *anything else* or *bilge* available to go more in depth. I'm not of the sort to label it completely irrelevant, or not deserving of any mention at all, on a build thread. Fairing fills hollows, and turns the peaks into dust. All part of the process. The metaphor works for me.

Alright, to bring it back to boats.... I don't need a harmonica to know if I'm ever going above the no wake speed limit in my CV16. But it sure feels mighty *on edge* when heeling in 15 knots or more wind.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:33 pm**

Of all the issues which have impeded my progress (which is now put into perspective by the fact that Corvidae, who started after me and is building a larger and more complex version of the same boat, is already in the water

But hey, no pressure

) nothing has presented as many hurdles as smoothing the interior radius joints, the finish fillets where frames and seats meet the hull. I've asked this before and both Jacques and CL, than whom no more authoritative sources exist, have said something to the effect that you just take your Quick Fair, get a nice radius tool--which I have now a collection of--and after you get it laid down, put a coat of epoxy over it. They say NO sanding is necessary. But I find that no matter how careful I am with the original application, there are little streaks, and glops at the end, that I cannot countenance. What I have in mind is achieving the sort of radius that would result from using a cove bit on a router. In fact, I have even fantasized about creating a jig for a router and doing exactly that, but you would need a bunch of jigs and they wouldn't work on curves and besides, that is flat out insane.

I called a contractor friend of mine who specializes in high-end offices, and his solution was: you ask around and find the guy who's been doing this exact job for decades, and then you pay him what he is worth.

After much work I end up with something I can live with, but only after not two or three, but six or seven, rounds of fairing. Since ks8 and Joel have now cautioned me to wait 3 days after applying S3 before attempting more Quick Fair, and because I always find the S3 reveals another holiday, this can literally take weeks. But OTOH, I'm not in a hurry and even though it is frustrating, fussing over these little details can also be satisfying when in the end it doesn't look bad. All suggestions are welcome, including those involving alcohol, drugs, or therapy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still having fun and will see this through to the end--even if it occurs at the same instant my own end does.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:05 pm**

Tony, I can tell you a little tale that may or may not help. I owned and operated an equipment rental business for 30 years. We sold equipment both new and used. One day one of my best and favorite customers came in to pick up an expensive new water pump he'd ordered. We had it assembled and all polished up for him on the showroom floor. He spent a few minutes inspecting it, then turned to me and asked if I had a big ball peen hammer. I grabbed a 24 oz and asked it this would do, having no idea why he wanted it. He said "perfect" and immediately caved in one corner of the gas tank on his brand new multi thousand dollar pump. Before I could even ask "why in the world..." he told me this was the best day of his working life. He finally got to damage a piece of his equipment before his employees could. Having dealt with customers beating the snot out of my equipment for years, I fully understood and now no longer worry too much about making things look cosmetically perfect. Life is much easier now.

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:50 pm**

Like my old friend Tim says, "Life is so much easier now that I have given up hope."

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:57 pm**

I think something that might have helped me along is that I just used my thumb as my radius tool under the seats and other hidden spots. For the seat tops I did the same, then cleaned it up with a flapper like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DAFE1D1210 ... B00413QCZE

It's not the most elegant of tools, but it gets the job done. The problem is that it's going to bounce around scratching everything nearby. So you have to either block it off with sacrificial cardboard, or be ready to fair and sand around what you're fairing and sanding.

The best method is lightly brushing some clear epoxy over the fillet, but that does take a little practice to get right. At least according to my repeated failures. That's what I initially tried to do under the rub rails on mine. In the end I put up a half inch tape wall and poured thickened epoxy down the channel with the boat upside down. It worked, but wasn't exactly something I could do inside the boat.

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:31 pm**

Thanks, Corvidae. What a cool idea. I ain't going there, though.
I've experimented with the flapper and every other sanding device I can get my hands on but in the end it just has taken a lot of time.
You also may lack a couple of my attributes: laziness and procrastination, amplified by a tendency to extensively cogitate on things before I bear down and do them wrong.

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:32 pm**

Speed, with some things, comes with developed technique, which begins to show up right near the end of the first boat, and beginning the next one (I imagine). Getting it done well, and doing it quickly, are not necessarily going to coincide with the first boat, but it will get done.

I've gotten very quick cleaning things up with the Dremel drum, but it was very slow going at first -- awkward, afraid of gouging wood, etc. Now I know how to hold it just right, and zip right along cleaning up those ridges on either side of a fillet made with a rounded tongue depressor -- and actually getting them mostly dealt with before they cure, with the sliding of a sharp cornered plastic card.

What do you find easier for you already, compared to when you first looked at the plans?

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:40 pm**

Actually, working on the radiuses/radii is probably the only thing I've slowly improved on. The basic glassing had very few issues and the assembly of the boat was only challenging at the bow, where I could have taken an easier route but didn't want to. Fairing the wide areas is pretty straightforward and just takes a little time and patience.
Like you, I've learned I can do better with the original application of the Quick Fair to the radius, and clean it up pretty well as I do it. The angle you hold the tongue depressor or other tool gets varied, and being picky about how clean you get the associated ridges can help. I also use several different spreaders, but my favorite radius tool is either the regular old tongue depressor or something like this:

Then it's a matter of what sander to use. I've never achieved the "no sanding" result but I've now reduced the sanding and gotten a better feel for picking the right process...although some areas seem to get worse as often as they get better because they are possessed by demonic powers. Those are the ones that require lots of do-overs, cursing, and tool violence.

In addition to my multi-tool with the triangular pad, I also found this thing, which is a pad for the RO that sort of bends at the edges:

Although it doesn't help in every instance, it sometimes works great. But: it never works as well as you would assume from the photo.

Posted: **Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:22 pm**

Bow and stern seat are glued in. I'm having to re-make the little oarlock socket braces because somehow I glued them together not quite square

.
Weighed the boat today. With the center seat in but not glued, and the hatches and breasthook and knees lying in the boat, I was getting 110-112 lbs. More weight will be added when I glass the seats, which I've decided to do after reading other accounts, and of course the remaining fairing and paint. But I checked out the weight on the 10'-9" plastic Walker Bay boat, and it is 126. I still have a pretty good chance of coming in under that.

Posted: **Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:38 pm**

I glued in the stern seat and then created fillets and glassed over the top and about a couple inches up the hull. Glassing to the hull was per Jacques' instructions but the seat top was glassed after reading the experiences of other builders who thought this provided good protection against abrasion.
As I did on the outside of the hull without success, I thought I'd try using a layer of Mylar to try to achieve a mirror finish. I waited, say, an hour after applying the glass, and then put a sheet of Mylar on top of it and rolled it out with a laminate roller. This was quasi-successful.

You can see that to a degree, a mirror-like finish did result. However, there were a few imperfections. Where you see the black circle, I think there wasn't sufficient resin between the Mylar and glass to fill the weave, though the glass was properly bonded to the wood beneath. In other areas, as you can see with the reflection of the window and overhead lights, there is a very reflective, smooth surface. The waviness of the reflection, however, is the result of the fact that even fairly heavy Mylar isn't rigid and so doesn't lie perfectly flat. I think what would work is putting down the Mylar, and then a piece of plywood to create a rigid, flat, backing for it, and then adding weights. I may try this but considering it takes cutting some plywood, I may not. Another thing that would help with the areas where the weave didn't quite get filled as in the circle in the photo would be to, again, while the resin was still tacky, put another light coat on which would fill the voids before putting down the Mylar. But the result, which would require only very minimal sanding with, say 220 just to create some tooth for the topcoat, might save a huge amount of fairing, filling, and sanding. On the other hand, maybe I'm just trying to reinvent the wheel and this is best dealt with in other ways.
Here's another view:

The whitish smudges you see in the foreground and middle of the picture are not failures of the process; they are reflections of the uneven fairing patches on the hull opposite, like the reflections of trees in still water.

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