Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

Posted: **Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:12 pm**

Well, we're excited. The materials started to arrive for our new C-17. We received the fiberglass, epoxy and supplies. I'm planning on starting the boat in mid January when things calm down a bit!
I am curious about one of the epoxy chemicals That was included in the kit. It is called "System Three Gel Magic" I looked it up on line and im drawing the conclusion that it is intended for the glueing part of the stitch and glue assembly. What I'm wondering is whether or not that would be used in adhering the two overlapping hull sections or would the regular epoxy (silver tip) be used for that purpose?
Anyone have any thoughts on it?

Posted: **Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:26 pm**

Good luck on the build, I've just started mine of an FS17.

I'm interested in the question you asked as well. Normally I would have used thickened epoxy but much more wet than I'd used for other glue jobs. I'd be tempted to coat both sides with a thin coat of unthickened epoxy followed by the gel magic even though gel magic shouldn't require pre-wetting. Let's see what other people say though.

Posted: **Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:08 pm**

agreed. I would guess we want that area as strong as possible.
I have heard this term "thickened epoxy" before. I that done with the silica beads or wood flower?

Posted: **Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:47 pm**

You can thicken epoxy with different fillers, for different purposes. There are adhesive fillers, fairing fillers, etc. The system 3 products like gel magic are really just pre thickened epoxy so the gel magic is thickened with adhesive filler, quickfair with fairing filler, etc. You could get almost the same effect by mixing the system 3 epoxy with those different fillers yourself, this is just easier and more consistent, and possibly with a few special benefits.

Gel magic claims to be an adhesive epoxy you don't need to prewet for, and my test batch shows that to be true. I was first thinking it would be better to coat with plain epoxy but now that I think about it that would probably just make it harder to keep the pieces from staying aligned, and straight gel magic is probably how I will go.

Here is a video that shows about how I plan to do it. It's from a wooden boat building channel I really like. There as a lot different about wooden boat building v. building a stitch and glue boat but laminating layers of would should be about the same either way.

https://youtu.be/-t_w38mS9bo?t=323

If you have some time to kill watch the 20+ videos of the work skiff he is building right now.

Posted: **Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:49 pm**

Interesting video ! I think that gives me a direction to go in joining the two hull overlaps! I'll most likely do the same as you. i dont see how that could fail. The inside of the joined parts will be waterproof and the outside will be biaxial on the lower (chine) side and thin epoxy sealed on the upper section.
when do you plan on starting to build?

Posted: **Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:57 pm**

Started recently: http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=61781

Posted: **Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:57 pm**

I looked at your post. I wish you the very best of luck !
I ordered the kit since I have limited time and am notorious for mis-measuring complex cuts!
I think you do not have problems in that area!

Posted: **Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:28 am**

You use gel magic to glue anything together " rubrail layers, transom layers, stringers, hull seams pretty much
any time you glue . You do not have to prewet before use . that's the beauty of it , saves time .

Posted: **Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:33 am**

I used the gel-magic for the stringers and transom for my FS17. I still used epoxy and wetted out the surfaces before spreading the gel-magic. I did read that you don't have to do that first, but thought it couldn't hurt. It's pretty impressive stuff... apparently it will glue anything together.

I did a fiberglass splice for the hull and bottom panels. Didn't use gel-magic.

I'm going to use the Silvertip EZFillet to stitch it together. I guess you could use the gel-magic?

Gel-Magic would be ideal for your overlapping panels.

Posted: **Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:42 pm**

Thank you Topwater that explains a lot!
I think I'll get more and use the Ez Fillet for the beams, closets bulkheads, and benches !

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:32 am**

Thanks, Parkrat, It does seem a good idea to use it on attaching the hull pieces.
Ill post my progress when I actually start the build which hopefully should start a week or so after New Year.
Happy Holidays guys !

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:21 am**

You can use the Silvertip gel-magic for the outside hull seams as long as the temp is okay and it doesn't sag. Another member willg suggested to run blue tape along the seams underneath. I did that and tacked mine together last night using the EZ fillet. Worked real well and glad I ran the blue tape first. Didn't get anything on my garage floor.

The EZ fillet is really easy to work with and doesn't sag at all.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:08 pm**

Thats what they say about the Gel magic in their technical information. Ive never worked with either before. Ive only done lamination previously.
I guess i have a few weeks to decide. Temperature is no problem (only problem is paying the heat bill !!!!!!!). I guess either would be acceptable.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:28 pm**

Yes, either works. I keep my garage around 70 degrees when working and I think the gel magic would have run through the seams.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:46 pm**

Good point. Mines about 65 Degrees. How much of a gap do you leave in the keel and chine seams?

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:59 pm**

What I've gathered and did with mine is use a common nail as spacing between the seams so you can see light from the other side.

It also depends on how well you cut and draw the panels. Mine is a little wonky in places so i have some larger gaps. Once you get to that point you will probably be able to decide.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:16 pm**

Im not doing that cutting

I'm having Bateau do the cnc cutting to save me time...I usually have no time to even die (good thing) but it does put a strain on projects so anywhere I get a break i take it !
Have you thought about wood wedges (their like 3 bucks a dozen) to space the seams? Im thinking they might be very stable for you to work and adjust.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:50 pm**

The easiest thing to get and manage is tile spacers. Available at Lowes in the tile section in sizes from 1/8 to 3/8 inch sizes. They have four legs one in the joint, two resting on the panels. Wood wedges might or might not work I can see them falling through the gaps if you don't put a nail in each one to keep them from doing so.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:53 am**

Thats actually a good idea. I dont suppose the gap has to be extensive so its worth using since they also take up less space.
nice.

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:15 pm**

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=63466

Just wanted to document the very beginning and learn how to upload an image!

Thank you Jamie ! Got it...I think !

Posted: **Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:40 pm**

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:54 am**

I gotta admit Parkrat, Thats the best one I've ever seen !

The cut plywood should be here early next week!
Then after a short Christmas break the fun starts!
First one, makes me a little nervous !

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:25 am**

If you right click on the full size image and copy image address, then paste that into your post, highlight it and click on the IMG button, you get this:

Good luck with your build.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:07 pm**

Thank you very much my friend!
I definitely will be using that.
Im a little challenged on forums.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:18 am**

Well, we took delivery of all the panels and after fighting -5 windchill we got them into the basement where I'll be assembling panels before bringing them upstairs to the jig. Some of the tabs on the pre cuts seperated prematurely in the 40+ mile wind gusts. That only slightly confuses my life as I'll be spending most of january identifying parts and determining which need splicing or glueing and trying to figure out what goes where !
I cant stress enough how nice the pieces were cut and how fast they got here !
Once I start to figure out where they belong I'm guessing theyll be a lot nicer to work with than any plywood I've used before!

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:56 pm**

Nice pile of lumber.

May I suggest that you go into your profile and add your location to it. This will help us with questions on epoxy curing. There may also be another builder or more in your area that you could visit.

Good luck as you get started on your build. Please feel free to ask plenty of questions.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:37 pm**

Good advice Tom ! I will do that. But just for now I'm building in SCRANTON, PA. (on top of a mountain called East Mtn.) It's like the tundra here in winter. What i'm planning is to make the jig in our garage and the pieces that have to be spliced or glued ahead of time will be done in my moms basement accross the street which is at least 70 Degrees (my moms almost 90! likes the heat up !!!).
Since I'm new to this, all advice is VERY appreciated!
I figured since its the holidays im going to continue to study the plans and parts identification and acyually start gluing in the latter part of January. Believe it or not it will be a bit less cold and by then I should have learned enough not to put the transom on the nose !!!!
And thank you my friend !

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:43 pm**

David, if you have questions about parts identification, post here. There should be a package of printed files in the box that shows the nesting of the kit pieces. It is very close to the nesting of the standard plans.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:10 pm**

Thank you Jacques! I think every time I look at the nesting diagrams I get a little more familiar. some of the tabs broke loose in transit so I have to match the individual pieces. I think if I stay focused on one step at a time I should do OK figuring out where most pieces go.
If I get stuck I'm not shy, I will post lots of questions i'm sure! And It's nice to have you and everyone else to advise me. It takes a lot of pressure off!!!
So far my wife, Deb and I are very excited. I thank you for all your guidance !!!

Posted: **Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:57 am**

David516, you guys have a great holiday season and try and stay warm up there!!! We will be watching your build!! Jeff

Posted: **Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:36 pm**

Thank you Jeff ! You also. have a great holiday !

Posted: **Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:44 pm**

Well, I decided to start doing some studying tonight.
I went accross the street and checked the temp and humidity and put a dust cover over the panels.
I cut two scrap pieces in half and decided to practice joining them with the sample kit. I think I did a fairly good job but I'm not sure so I posted a picture. Waiting for the first side to cure (at 60 deg.)

This brings up a few questions...

Using 9 oz woven I was able to completely saturate the fabric but it does not get totally transparent. Is this normal?
I also noticed the edges of the fabric like to pick up as they frey quite easily. does this get sanded or faired?
I read that all panels should be sealed before fiberglassing. Does that include the hull panels, and if so, do i let them dry before glassing?
Should this sealed wood be sanded?
I understand that once the glass is wetted and cured it gets faired before filling in the weave with epoxy. Is there any time table for filling in the weave? and is it better to let each coat cure then sand, or fill the weave while it is still uncured?

I'll wet out the other side of the join tomorrow.

Thanks to anyone who can set me straight !!!

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:15 am**

Your glassing looks good. The heavier the glass the more you will see it.

Before glassing over bare wood many builders will put epoxy over where the glass will be and let it soak in and tack up some. Depending on what you are doing things could change. Ask at each step if you are unsure. Take it one step at a time and ask questions. You will get timely answers. And do not be afraid of making a mistake. It can be fixed

Ask me how I know

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:19 am**

One more thing. While you are doing some testing make up a small right angle with plywood and glue it together with the wood flower glue. After it sets up try to brake it apart. This will show you how strong it is and will come in handy later on when glueing parts together.

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:28 am**

Thank you !
I guess the first things I'm going to do (right after all the holidays) are to join the hull pieces then glue the transom pieces and clamping board.
It seems the thing is to not let any sealed pieces completely cure. That, I can do!
And I'll do the wood flower test tomorrow night! Thanks!

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:13 pm**

Hey David, There are a number of ways guys go about the glassing. I like to pre-cut all my cloth, both the 6" tape and the 50" wide cloth. After rolling out the 6" for the chines etc., I roll it back up and label so there's no confusion during the glassing as to where each piece needs to go. It's also very helpful to mark the hull with a sharpie marker as your guide when rolling the tape out onto the hull. Not necessary, but makes for a nice neat job. On the wide cloth, you can mark the cloth anywhere you think it will help guide placement, as well as marking the hull. That way when you have resin mixed, you don't end up fumbling around trying to figure out which piece goes where. If you're organized, calm, and methodical, it's a breeze. 1 piece at a time, no panicking, just move along slowly and it all comes together. If you haven't done glass work before, you'll learn on the job very fast. I also never mix more than 24 ounces at a time, 24 ounces being plenty of resin to keep you busy for a little while without it kicking off. Start with less at first to get a feel for the process.... If you are using the Silver Tip you don't have to sand if you're going over it within 24 hours, but I always light sand anyway if I let it cure overnight.....Ideally I like to apply the 6" tape, let it set up a little, and while it's still sticky, roll out the wide cloth, what's referred to as working wet on wet, that way you get a really good bond, and no need to knock down the edges of the 6" tape with a sander before applying the wide cloth.....Whichever way you choose to work, after the wide cloth is cured you can knock down the high spots with a sander, the more even you make the overlaps, the less fairing filler you'll need.....When you spread the fairing filler, try to work as neatly as possible, spreading it on as evenly as you can, which will make the sanding a lot easier. Mike

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:43 pm**

Thanks Mike! Yes, I'm new to fiberglassing. I did epoxy coatings for many outdoor applications over 30 years ago but have never wetted out cloth. All this new stuff is amazing and a bit confusing. Your suggestion to pre cut is genius! Now, if I tape the keel (the prescribed layers) and bottom to lower chine panels, say early in the morning, as well as the transom, I can then do each half of the bottom hull say, in the afternoon? Theoretically I can then have the entire lower hull glassed in a day? Of course I know I have to fill the weave and fair.
this brings up two questions. Should the first wet out cure, can it be sanded without damaging the glass cloth? Also, on the c-17 the upper chine panels overlap the lower chine panels by 6 inches. Is it alright (advisable) to glass the lower chine panel say an inch or so under the upper chine panel before gluing for extra strength? Or am I over thinking things?

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:39 pm**

Correct, you can do all the 6" and the wide cloth in one day. If you have the time to do it this way, great, it's the best way to go. I did my FS18 and the FS14 without any help, and had no problems, but you will be dealing with a larger surface area, so if you have an assistant to help with draping or rolling out the wide cloth, mixing epoxy, serving beverages, etc. you'll soon see it's not that complicated, and actually quite fun knowing that you're really building a boat. Enjoy the fun stuff for when you're pushing a sander for a few hours. Like I said earlier, working smart will save a lot of unnecessary sanding. On my second build I went one step further and after applying the 6" and the wide cloth, came back when it was set up enough to trowel on my first coat of very thin fairing filler to fill the weave. 1 day, all wet on wet, and saved me a lot of down time waiting for epoxy to cure, and saved a lot of sanding. I don't have much patience for waiting around watching epoxy cure. Just remember, everyone makes mistakes, and most of us aren't professional fiberglass guys, so if you follow the lamination schedule, grind away and patch any really egregious mistakes, the hull will be plenty strong enough, in fact a lot stronger than most factory built boats.....My favorite tools for glassing is the 4" Whizz brand 1/4" nap kitchen and bath rollers you can get at Lowe's. $4.48 for a 2 pack, and they don't fall apart like the foam rollers, and you can really get the cloth to lay down nice, especially useful when you get to the part glassing over the epoxy fillets on the inside of the hull. Also from Lowe's, my favorite resin spreader for the hull bottom is a Blue Hawk brand 10" plastic 'triple edge paint guide'. It's not flexible like a bondo spreader, so better for the large flat areas, has a nice comfortable handle, and the 10" width is great for moving around the resin to saturate the cloth, than works great to screed off the excess resin..... Have plenty of mixing cups on hand, as well as plastic paint trays, and a box of Nitrile gloves, I used at least 200 gloves on my builds..... I'm not sure I understand your last question. Mike

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:03 pm**

Thanks Mike !
Im always at Lowes. Will get the rollers and guide.
My other question may sound dumb. What I'm saying is that since I glass the lower chine panels and they say not to glass the upper panels which are glued to the lower panels with a 6" overlap should I run the glass so that the fiberglass extends a little under the upper chine panel that is overlapping the lower panel? Kind of like a sandwich with about an inch of glass in between. I dont know if this will add strength or not.

Anyway I learned the hard way not to let the epoxy set up in the pot! Also not to use cheap thin cups! See Photo

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:15 pm**

David nice choice in boats. First always precut your fiberglass to size. Then precoat the wood with epoxy. After that start laying out the fiberglass, seams first with the proper amount of epoxy. Then the bottom fiberglass you have measured out. There are several ways to make sure that the epoxy and fiberglass join together. Most important is smoothing the epoxy after you apply it.

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:26 pm**

Thanks Tom. By smoothing do you mean filling in the weave or fairing or both in between layers of glass like several layers of tape?

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:46 pm**

well, the holidays are over so I'm planning on starting our build next week. Ive had the pieces and plywood sheets sitting at a constant 68 degrees at 40% humidity weighted to prevent warping.
i thought I would start by gluing all the parts that need to be pre glued such as transom, clamping board, and splicing the hull and chine panels (lengthwise) and the top bow deck.

My question, is that I've noticed that some builders like to pre glue the upper and lower chine panels where they overlap before attaching them to the lower hull panels on the frame. Others prefer to glue them after the lower chine panels have been attached to the lower hull panels. Which is the overall better way to do this???

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:00 pm**

David on boats with upper and lower panels you do NOT want to glue them together to start with. Install the lower panel, get it all set and then install the upper panel. Many times you need to make small adjustments with the upper panels and there is no way to do this if they are glued together. Also if glued together they will be too stiff to make the bends.
fuzz

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:59 pm**

Fuzz is correct. It is impossible to bend the top and bottom panels once they are epoxy glued together.
This is for the side panels. The splices are done before installation on the hull.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:54 pm**

By smoothing I mean sanding the fibers that hold the main fibers away and then applying a thin layer of epoxy/filler mix to fill the weave. This is by no means a fairing layer. But it sets you up for fairing as the fiberglass is ready to be faired. Keep up the good work my original boat to build was a center console was the C17.

Posted: **Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:05 pm**

Thank you guys! I will post some pictures as I go along ! Will start with the transom in a few days!
I hope everyone had a good New year !

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:48 am**

Greetings everyone,
Been a long distracting winter. Ive been starting my set up and some work on the transom and hull sections. I dont know if Im going to be able to post pictures because Ive been trying for two hours and still cant figure it out! Lets face it, two things I'm very challenged at apparently. Computers and boat building. Im a very decent carpenter but my problems dont fall into that category. Getting a little frustrated with my own confusion. I laminated the transom and clamping board pieces and they seem to have come fine. I joined one of the bottom hull pieces together and this is where I am confused. I joined the puzzle ends by pre sealing the area and wetting out the 8' biazial tape. Since the pieces would not sit flat I weighted them with a board with plastic sheeting in between under a weight. My confusion lies in whether I did this right because when I checked it the next day, although the panels met perfectly there is a smooth sort of thick appearing resin appearance on most of the tape area. some of the area seems not to be that way where there are some very tiny gaps in the weave and some small "pot holes" on the edges.
I also had a build up of resin on the unfinished side that needed to be sanded down. I know I wetted all the cloth properly but now do I have to sand it,fair it or what in order to prevent air bubbles on the edges when I finally put the biax cloth over everything when the hull is together? In other words, am I headed in the right direction?
Im experienced enough to do anything any of you tell me, but sadly, at the moment I feel i am too %&#&!! stupid to know what it is I need to do !!! Any help will be very appreciated. I will continue to attempt to post [image]pictures.http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userp ... G_7408.JPG[/image]

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:55 am**

[image]http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=64289[/image]
[image]http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=64287[/image]
[image]http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=64284[/image]

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:40 am**

Looks fine to me - give it a light sand with 120 grit and build on!

Cheers

Lee

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:44 am**

Thank you Lee ! I shall ! and Ill keep posting to let you guys know my progress !!!! Very much appreciated !

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:40 am**

David516, glad to see you are well on your way!!! Jeff

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:04 pm**

looks good

Use as little resin as possible to fully wet out glass squeegee excess or use a roller to spread on dry plywood to "pre-coat"

I prefer 80 grit as minimum until fairing - in my case every hour of sanding now saved two hours of fairing - feather edges of tape and knock down all high spots

Posted: **Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:30 am**

Thanks Jeff ! It's good to be back to work after this awful winter !
The big storm (and other stuff) had put a damper on my ambition!

Posted: **Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:41 am**

Thank you tcason!
That is what I did on the top half of the second piece. I see where I need to sand some little pot holes on the first piece. I understand that I should avoid sanding into the biaxial tape so anything there i guess would need feathering or fairing before the biaxial goes on the hull so as not to create air pockets.
Im very glad to get all your advice. You guys are giving me a lot more confidence than I would have if I were alone on this.
It's not the type of project to be done carelessly.
I'll try to post the results of tonights work (hope my pictures are posting!).

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:32 pm**

Last night I joined the first side of the lower chine panels.
The panels were pretty warped (it seems the thinner marine ply likes to do that) but I overcame this by weighting the wetted out glassed pieces with heavy weights on a board.
For the most part they came out very well. I have a question on two of the edges where they dont meet perfectly. they are about 1/32" off where they meet. what would the best way to fix this be before I put the glass on the other side? I would like to sand them even then fill any unfilled areas (where the joints meet) with resin when I pre coat the wood before wetting out the biaxial tape on the join. Is this the right way to go?
[image]https://forums.bateau2.com/app.php/gall ... 837/medium[/image]
[image]https://forums.bateau2.com/app.php/gall ... 836/medium[/image]
[image]https://forums.bateau2.com/app.php/gall ... 835/medium[/image]
[image]https://forums.bateau2.com/app.php/gall ... 838/medium[/image]

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:00 pm**

That is the right thing to do. If you have a bump there you will end up with a bubble in your glass. Low spots can be filled with wood glue and when it has stiffened up a little you can lay your glass right over it.

Posted: **Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:36 pm**

Thank You !

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:38 am**

OK. Repairs worked on the lower chine panel! Good adviceFuzz.
[image]https://forums.bateau2.com/app.php/gall ... 839/medium[/image]
[image]https://forums.bateau2.com/app.php/gall ... 840/medium[/image]

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:02 am**

Glad it worked for you. So now you can move ahead. Love watching new boats go together.

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:51 am**

Thought I help out with the pics, next time use the picture link 9th from the left between the * and the chain links

David516 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:38 am OK. Repairs worked on the lower chine panel! Good adviceFuzz.

Posted: **Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:27 am**

Thank you very much Peter!
Have not been online for a bit. Was fixing transom and making a temporary storage brace from 2x4s!
weighed almost 200 Lb with all the 2x4s I used!
Ill try some pictures and see if i can get it right!
again, Thanks !

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2017 11:51 pm**

Oh boy, This week I worked on the stringers. I laminated them meticulously each one individually looked perfect. When I put them together they would not match up perfectly. If I matched the front then the back was off 1/4" If I matched the back, the front was off 1/4". I finally determined that each stringers dimensions are off 1/8 " at the mid section. I could trim them both and they would match perfectly but would then have a width of 4 5/8" instead of 4 3/4.
My question is if these need to be exact and If i trim them Would it be a problem building them up an eighth of an inch at either the hull or where the beams fit in with fillet compound or gel magic?

I have not built the strong backs yet as I wanted to finish the bottom and chine panels, transom and stringers. I was planning on building the strongbacks and frame starting tomorrow.

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 7:39 am**

That's fine, get them matched up and fill that 1/8" when you set them in the boat.

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 10:06 am**

I agree with Pee Wee.

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 1:44 pm**

Thanks Guys!
I was actually thinking that but its always better to check

Posted: **Sun May 21, 2017 1:47 am**

Greetings!
With all the stringers, Hull panels and transom/clamping board all together, I started building my Jig. Ive been reading and re-reading jig instructions and specific building notes for a couple of days. I was confused on the motorwell sides but I finally figured it out. I'm apparently not the fastest horse in the race but I'm starting to get it.
I had to splice an 8'and 10' 2x8 together with a 4' 2x8 0n each as I could not get a single 20' piece. the splice is very strong so I dont think that will be a problem since theyre as straight as any 20' piece. Ill post pictures when I get the jig base together.
Just curious, I did not see ant reference to any origin point on the plans (at least I cant find one) so I wanted to designate my origin at frame "A" since it seems easier for me to work off of. Is there a better place or does it make a difference??? and thanks!

Posted: **Thu May 25, 2017 11:52 pm**

I have a serious question... I started assembling my strong backs and cross beams (please expect me to work about three times slower than you might expect cause of knees. no big deal, just make me slower) I was looking at the moulds that jacques was kind enough to cut for me. I have nose, and stations B,C & D. I'm going to make a mould from OSB for station A.

My question is on station E, the motor well walls, and transom. There are no moulds to hold the transom and after reading both sets of building notes 4 times I think I'm supposed to install actual station E, the motor well walls and transom and put those permanently in place BEFORE putting the hull panels on. Am I right??? Otherwise I suppose I can screw the parts together temporarily but I am confused as to which approach is the correct one.

By tonight I will have the strong backs done and marked. Tomorrow, after an errand, starting to mark and place the 2x4s for the stations.

Posted: **Fri May 26, 2017 10:29 am**

David,

Glad to see you are making some progress!!! I would caution about putting any of the frames and motor well parts together permanently. The reason for this is you want to be able to take all of the "guts" (frames/stations, stringers, motor well, etc...) out of the hull so you can glass the inside of the hull. Do your best to rig up battens and temporary cleats in order to hold all of the frames in place while you stitch, glue, and glass all of the hull panels together. When the outside of the hull is complete you want to be able to remove the hull from the frames with relative ease so you can flip and start on the interior glassing.

Some suggestions on your strongback:

Make sure the strongback is as square as you can make it, especially your cross members. This will help you set the stage for getting your frames square.

Build some sturdy legs with castors that can lock on your strongback. It is nice to be able to move the boat around if you need to. Set the height of the strongback so you can get under the hull and work easily but can still reach all areas on top of the hull comfortably.

If you can, allow the bow to hang over as much as you can. This will help you gain access underneath when stitching in a tight space.

Good luck! I look forward to seeing your progress!!!
Reid

Posted: **Fri May 26, 2017 12:57 pm**

Thank you so much Reid.
I actually forgot about the inside glass!!!!
The rest of your suggestions made have been done already. Strong backs, casters done!! Got them perfectly square full length with corner clamps and 6" head lock screws.
Ill post more pics soon and again, THANKS !

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:18 am**

Well, finally able to get back to work!
Got frames and molds nearly perfect. Tomorrow I start putting the bottom and lower chine panels on. I'm thinking I'm going to need more stitch holes in the keel panels? I guess we'll play that one by ear.

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:12 am**

That looks great. Glad to see you moving forward.

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:15 am**

Looks like a nice set up. You might have to cut the front of the jig back some to get clearance for the side panels at the
bow . you won't know until you hang them for the first time.

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:34 am**

Thank you! and, I agree, may have to cut strongbacks to allow bow room. Didnt want to make frames too high at the keel for slightly easier access to the center line.

I do have a question, I took both lower panels off to put some more stitch holes in the panels and when I matched up the two hull pieces to drill holes I noticed that the center of the panels (the middle between the two splices) are 1/16th different in width. I hesitate to cut or shave them even as there will be a gap in the centerline for gluing and I can probably adjust the difference at the gap.
The question is, should I do what I said or should I actually shave the panels till they are exact? which might shorten the width of the panels since it seems the difference is a result of play in the sections of the hull panels when I joined them

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:56 am**

You do not want two pieces of the plywood touching. Most folks use some form of spacer when assembling their hull. So remember "gaps are good" You can fill a pretty large gap if you put some packing tape on the back side to keep it from falling through. 1/8 is nothing

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:40 am**

I'd ignore that 1/16th and stitch things up. When you glue up the panels, run a fillet down the seams, and round the outside for glass, it'll be gone.

Dougster

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:03 am**

I don't think there will be an issue with your panel.

I will dissent...gaps are workable...but I don't think I would classify them as "good". I know it's a popular saying here, and I'll be chastised for going against the grain (again).

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:30 am**

cape_fisherman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:03 am I will dissent...gaps are workable...but I don't think I would classify them as "good". I know it's a popular saying here, and I'll be chastised for going against the grain (again).

Cape man, my question and statement is to get information not to disagree with you...

If space is required under stringers, why would it not be good between panels? JM seems to suggest space created using PVC or nails is ideal for proper glue up.

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:51 pm**

cape_fisherman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:03 am I don't think there will be an issue with your panel.

I will dissent...gaps are workable...but I don't think I would classify them as "good". I know it's a popular saying here, and I'll be chastised for going against the grain (again).

cape_fisherman, I know you mean well but you may be taking what you learned from Devlin's teachings and thinking they apply equally to all of the designs at Bateau. Take a look at this:

https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... 6&start=10

Especially Jacques comment:

"Yes, the Devlin book is good but my method is slightly different.
He is more a wooden boat builder and does not use fiberglass boat building techniques as I do."

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:29 pm**

Gaps are needed to avoid hard spots.
It is not a simple preference or a pet peeve.

We don't want the plywood panels or the framing to push against each other.
Years ago, I posted a copy of a fiberglass boat building text book showing that gaps are recommended. We want the fiberglass to transmit the loads over the structure, not the edge of the plywood.

Yes, the Devlin book is good but the 1st edition did not mention the use of biaxial tape, an important point. He switched to biaxial later.
The very first book mentioning biaxial tape in stitch and glue was published in France, about 10 years before Devlin wrote his book, 10 years before the 1st bateau.com web site. I learned the technique in Europe and it evolved in a composite plywood sandwich method later.

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:06 pm**

Thank You all !!!! I can now proceed! More pics soon!

Posted: **Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:33 pm**

David, glad to see you back building!!! Jeff

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:00 pm**

Im glad to be back !!! This year it was hard to get anything done! But in between the chaos I always start up again!

I do have four questions or i might screech to a stop !

Is there a good way to get the lower chine panels in the proper position for gluing? Tried nails and tile spacers but the boards push them to the sides.

which section should I try to stitch first? I don't know if im approaching this correctly by loosly attaching all 4 hull pieces. Cant get the bow stitched without it pressing together and overlapping. I have an inordinately large gap one third from the bow and the centerline is sagging between frames D & E.

There's a camber in stations A & E, how do I get the hull panels to conform to it as there is no camber in the transom?

When I glue the upper chine panels to the transom there will be a space between the upper chine panel and transom. What is recomended to fill that space?

As always, any help is tremendously appreciated !

Some pictures are posted below.

Posted: **Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:16 pm**

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:53 am**

Coming along great! Keep at it!!

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:05 am**

Nice work David, it is now looking like a boat!! Jeff

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:33 am**

I do have four questions or i might screech to a stop !

Is there a good way to get the lower chine panels in the proper position for gluing? Tried nails and tile spacers but the boards push them to the sides.

which section should I try to stitch first? I don't know if im approaching this correctly by loosly attaching all 4 hull pieces. Cant get the bow stitched without it pressing together and overlapping. I have an inordinately large gap one third from the bow and the centerline is sagging between frames D & E.

There's a camber in stations A & E, how do I get the hull panels to conform to it as there is no camber in the transom?

When I glue the upper chine panels to the transom there will be a space between the upper chine panel and transom. What is recomended to fill that space?

As always, any help is tremendously appreciated !

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:41 am**

David516 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:33 am I do have four questions or i might screech to a stop !

Is there a good way to get the lower chine panels in the proper position for gluing? Tried nails and tile spacers but the boards push them to the sides.

If you build on a jig, install a support batten across the frames/molds, at the sheer level. I show that in some tutorials.

which section should I try to stitch first? I don't know if im approaching this correctly by loosly attaching all 4 hull pieces. Cant get the bow stitched without it pressing together and overlapping. I have an inordinately large gap one third from the bow and the centerline is sagging between frames D & E.

The building notes and the tutorials say bottom first, very loose stitches and tighten progressively. Locate panels from the transom and sdjust as you go = loose stitches.

There's a camber in stations A & E, how do I get the hull panels to conform to it as there is no camber in the transom?

Get as close as possible but focus on fairness, not the small camber.

When I glue the upper chine panels to the transom there will be a space between the upper chine panel and transom. What is recomended to fill that space?

There should not be a space but you don't glue before all your stitching is right. Plus, I think my notes say to use drywall screws for the transom, loose again.

Everything should be free to "float", move and take it's shape without excessive force except maybe at the cutwater (bow).

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:43 am**

BTW, I see that you have molds with a notch (our kit?). That notch exist to support the edge of the side panel.
Your pictures look good, you are on the right track.

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:29 pm**

I used small pieces of PVC pipe on the inside of each stitch. This was the easiest method that I have found to keep the panels from overlapping when stitched together.

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:37 pm**

Thank you, yes it's your kit.
I will do as you say.
As I see it the bottom panels may have a larger gap at the middle piece (second spliced piece). Is that ok? I can fill it with gel magic but won't do anything like that without advice.
Again, thank you.

And thank you for the Idea on the pvc. sounds good.

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:44 pm**

Do not use Gel Magic for gap filling. If you fill use woodflour/epoxy or easyfillet.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:26 pm**

now Im a little confused Eric. I read thats what it was for and system three and others say the opposite. Is there something that happened with it that I should be aware of before i do anything bad?

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:29 pm**

David516 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:26 pm now Im a little confused Eric. I read thats what it was for and system three and others say the opposite. Is there something that happened with it that I should be aware of before i do anything bad?

Gel magic is a glue for bonding direct. Gap filling is a different thing.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:41 pm**

ok now I see what your saying however several months ago i wrote to system three. one of their technicians said no problem with the new formula (more solids) he even said it can be used to fillet as well. now it is a vertical structural adhesive with gap filling properties.

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:02 pm**

I hope that works out for you!

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:05 pm**

I wrote system three again just to double check . I can wait until monday. better be safe than sorry!

Posted: **Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:50 pm**

David, please post the feedback from S3!! Their response will be interesting!! Jeff

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:18 am**

Jeff, I will copy the e-mail and post probably Monday. They usually respond fairly quickly.

But...More questions!

I brought the transom over and temporarily put it in place with four deck screws. I know I have a bit more adjusting before stitching, however, I dont think the gap is going to be as wide as i thought. But, when I look at the bow, it seems that the gap will close when stitched but the two curved parts of the bow at the center line seem very close (see pictures below)! I hesitate to sand them down until I start stitching as the gap and close bow section may be resolved when stitched. Anybody else experience this? I'll just have to try it.

Not having built a boat before but having done extensive carpentry I expect every piect to fit to the millimeter (0r at least 1/32").
I'm thinking my expectations are too high and like Jacques mentioned I think I'm going to start concentrating on hull fairness than perfect fit which can be adjusted later. Any comments are welcome !!!

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:29 am**

I would think something is amiss with those bottom panels. Make that priority #1...in my opinion.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:59 am**

Cape fisherman may well be right, but since it is a CNC kit I'd trust that the panels are correct and will come together properly as the boat gets stitched. I wouldn't panic yet.
I know what you mean about having different expectations for tolerances when building with this method versus cabinet making. But Jacques' emphasis on fairness is to be taken seriously. The strength of the joints is created by the fiberglass and fillets, not, as in joinery, by a perfect meeting of the boards. I would think that you'd want to get the whole boat stitched and see how the panels shape themselves to fit, and then make small adjustments, which will be possible. That is one of the great benefits of stitch and glue. You can get things roughly in shape with the zip ties loose, and then tweak the joints until all is fair; whereas in joinery, the fit has to be absolutely perfect and there is no fiddling possible, or very little.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:20 pm**

In this type of building you don't want a wood to wood seam. You want a gap to prevent what is called a hard spot where the wood rubs on other wood. The epoxy and fiberglass provides the strength to hold the joint together. If you look at the lamination schedule you will have as many as 6 up to 8 layers of fiberglass at the keel and chines. So leave a 1/8 to 1/4 inch gap. You will want to get under the boat and apply tape so the epoxy doesn't run through.

Tom

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:48 pm**

Thank you for the advice guys ! Advice well taken!
I'll Keep you posted!

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:33 pm**

I think I somehow have a big problem!
Well, I started to try to fit the bottom panels to the transom when I line them up there is an enormous gap in the midfront section. I was able to line up the panels fairly evenly but noticed a new problem. when I closed the large gap at center lineand tried to close the bow, the bow pieces hopelessly overlap and the width does not fit station C or D they are too narrow by about half inch. I just did the stitches to test my concerns with the centerline. (they are intended to be cut off before i continue). If I adjust the centerline to proper width I will have about a 3/4 to 1" gap at the centerline, yet the bow wants to overlap!!!
When I put the panels together I sanded them even as they were uneven by 1/4" in width...
Im wondering if I should not have done this and I'm beginning to wonder If my project is over before It goes any Further!!!
Right now praying!!!
see the pictures below..

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:09 pm**

I know this may be a silly observation, but are the bottom panels in the correct places? I.e left and right not switched?

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:23 pm**

Marshall Moser wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:09 pm I know this may be a silly observation, but are the bottom panels in the correct places? I.e left and right not switched?

An out-of-the-square question, but well worth asking.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:12 pm**

Try inserting a small piece of PVC under each stitch (on the inside of the hull) as you move forward on the bow. I had the same problem with the bow panels overlapping. It took some force to keep the panels at the bow from overlapping, the ply only wants to bend so far. I also wedged the gap between the panels at the bow with popsicle sticks to maintain the gap. I did use a few temporary wood screws fastened into the underlying frames to keep the panels from pulling in. I had to pull out the angle grinder to slightly trim the gap at the bow. Try loosely attaching the side panels moving from the back of the boat moving forward. The weight of the side panels will help to keep the bow pieces pulling in and overlapping. This worked for me I hope this helps you.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:15 pm**

I thought about that but theres only one way they can go . even if you flip them they still have the same centers because the back of the bottom panels flare out to fit the angle of the transom. So no matter how you flip them theyre the same.
I did measure them in width. because I evened them out they seem to be 1/8 to 1/4 " short.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:20 pm**

cvincent thanks. I did try the PVC but did not think of the screws. I will try to line up the transom again and start stitching the back to front. Then i'll try your idea.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:54 pm**

After building the FS18 and utilizing the pvc pipe trick I wouldn't stitch another hull without a piece of pipe at every cable tie, in fact used the 100+ pieces from the first build on both of my other builds. I don't see any problems with the panels, and if you go back aft and cut those ties where it's binding and use the pipes and I use 12 penny common nails for spacers, it won't overlap and you'll be able to slowly work toward the bow forcing the ply into place a little at a time. Build on. Mike

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:14 pm**

Thank you mike. If I have a larger gap than I expected in the middle can that be fixed?

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:15 pm**

Seaslug and Cvincent are spot on with the advice of stitching with pvc pipe.
I would add this, don't start tabbing your transom in without first glueing it to the hull panels with the epoxy/wood flour mix.
I also like to see the transom sticking out past the hull panels by the thickness of the bottom panel.
This is so the fillet you make will have a equal amount of "bite" on both the transom and the hull panels.

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:30 pm**

No need to worry about a wide gap anywhere as long as you're happy with the overall shape of the hull. The gaps will be filled with epoxy and wood flower or whatever structural filler you're using, and then covered with multiple layers of cloth inside and out. Just be sure and destroy any photographic evidence of the gaps if they're really massive. Carry on. Mike

Posted: **Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:31 pm**

Again, Thank you.
I do have one question. Should the bottom panels come right up to the edge of the frames, or overlap them, or come short. I'm not sure how to create that gap at the chine for gluing. I dont know if there is a difference how I do it as long as it comes fair in the end? Slightly confused.

Truth is, without all the advice from all of you I probably would have thought this was impossible and thought about giving up by now!
Thats how important your advice is to me ! so, Thanks !!!!

Posted: **Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 pm**

Response from System Three regarding use of Gel Magic on wide gap.

I emailed System Three and asked If Gel Magic could be used on a wide gap If I should have a problem with the center line on the bottom panels. They said that yes, there is no problem using it. See the copy of their response email below.

Just a note, after I calmed down a bit and took all the advice I received, I'm pretty sure the gap in the bottom panels is minor at best if at all! Good news. I started stitching as advised and I'm about one third into the bottom panels with loose stitches and the PVC pipe sections!

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:36 am**

Gaps are good. They are to be filled with thickened epoxy. You have problems when there is wood touching wood. Vibrations and twisting will cause cracking..

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:43 am**

Agreed!

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:49 am**

That looks WAY better than what you had before!

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:37 am**

If at first you don't succeed .....

Well done David!

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:34 am**

Yes, well done David!!! Jeff

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:46 am**

Thanks, guys !

I will keep everybody updated !!!

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:48 am**

David,

I didn't notice, but do you have the side panels attached yet? Before I do any gluing I stitch ALL the hull panels together and let it sit for a day or so. This allows the wood to take its natural shape around your frames. Once the panels are loosely stitched, methodically start tightening the zip ties until you are happy with the gaps and complete shape.
As the others have said, don't worry about gaps. Woodflour and Epoxy will fill those in just fine. Seaslug gave me a good tip, get under the hull and tape (painters tape works fine) the back side of the gap. This will save you a lot of grinding work later on when you flip the hull and give you a cleaner seam on the inside of the hull.

Reid

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:24 pm**

Thanks Reid. I guess I should stitch the lower chine panels, maybe that is the reason I'm having some minor issues. Pictures below, I cant resolve a slight (1/8") dip in the mid hull panels even with battens and stringers, cant get the mid hull to hit the middle of stations C & D and I cant get the nose to stitch without the tips of the bottom panels flaring out a bit.
Am I supposed to stitch the bottom and lower chine panels together at the same time and leave them loose or just not very tight.
slightly confused. need some direction from here. I also noticed that the nose mold gets in the way of the stitches. Should I remove it since it's not mandatory to use?

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:19 pm**

So far I think everything looks pretty good, but I wouldn't go any further without stitching on the side panels. Once you get the side panels stitched using the pvc pipes you'll see if all 4 panels line up ok at the bow. That little gap at the bow isn't a problem, and with the side panels in place you still have room for another stitch or a screw, or even a bolt, to pull the bow together. If you do use a screw or bolt, just be sure you're able to remove them after tacking everything together. As far as the gaps where the bottom panels are off the frames, if your frames are laid out and cut properly you should be able to place some weights on the panels before tack welding it all together. But, if when you apply weight and push the panels down and it creates a bottom that's not perfectly straight, adjust the weights, shim underneath, or whatever you need to do to get it nice and straight before applying the epoxy between the ties. A few screws here and there to hold things in line before gluing is fine, and can be removed after the epoxy sets up. Mike

Posted: **Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:01 pm**

Thanks Mike.
So then If I'm understanding you correctly once I get the hull fair the glue will hold it that way?

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:29 am**

I agree with Mike; you need to get all the panels together including the sides and then tighten slowly, paying more attention to the fairness of every curve than to having every board join to the next one uniformly.
Yes, once you tighten all the ties and have the hull the shape you want including all panels, put epoxy thickened with wood flour in the spaces between the ties (taping the inside is a good idea as others have suggested). Let it kick, clip off the ties, and bingo, you've got a boat. Almost.

They are very unlikely to break apart except if there are areas, like the bow, where there is extensive strain. In that case do as others have suggested and fortify the zip ties with a screw or two, or as I did, with a bolt. On my build the strain was intense enough at the bow that I added a piece of tape in the questionable joint for insurance before removing the ties but this probably will not be necessary.

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 am**

Thanks! I will put the side panels on in the afternoon and take it from there.
Ive got the bottom panels where I feel at least I can work with them and get them fair, so I'll get the lower chine panels on and see what happens!

Posted: **Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:37 pm**

Ok, got to work another four and a half hours today. I took most of the advice I received and have gotten the bottom and lower chine (now attached) panels very fair. Still have a lot of adjusting to do and some minor problems to figure out (how to get the right lower chine panel to lay flat on frames C,D & E ) But I mostly solved the problem of the bottom panels not resting on C & D by using weights while tightening (Tightening is not finished) and the nose lined up nicely. I can see putting a couple of extra ties between lower chine and bottom panels with PVC & nails but for the most part I'm pretty happy with todays accomplishments!
If you look at the photos below you will see that I just about completely got rid of the hollow in the mid lower panels!!!

Posted: **Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:27 am**

That's looking very good! Now is the time also to lay a straight edge along the last five or six feet of the planing surface to see if it is pretty flat. You'll end up adding several layers of tape at the hull/transom intersection, so you'll need to return to this subject later, but if there were a major "flatness" issue now is the time to find out about it. It looks good in the photo, though. Your perseverance is paying off, that is coming together nicely.

Posted: **Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:22 pm**

Thanks Hank!
I did that with the straight edge in different sections including the planning surface I had found a hollow that's what was driving me crazy. But I'm pretty sure a combination of waiting down the hull temporarily and putting the sides on I helped quite a bit at this point now it's completely flat

Posted: **Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:33 pm**

Looking good!

Posted: **Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:42 pm**

Thanks Tony. Im working on getting that right (far) side to lay down a bit (about 1" to touch the frame) and I think I figured it out but not sure till I try it. Gotta tighten the center line a bit then very very slightly change position of the right (actually port side) lower panel which is trying to creep under the edge of the bottom panel. Nails not helping so I think about 2/3 that side need to be loosened a bit.
best case scenario the tighter center line forces the side panel from under the bottom panel.

Posted: **Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:33 pm**

Did a little more tweaking today. I'm almost completely satisfied the hull is very fair.
I'm still unsure about the the hull not touching every part of every frame. Is that ok? I'm also having a problem with one of the lower chine panels refusing to lay flat on frames D & E. the hull appears perfectly even (when I push the one panel against the frames) and it's not under much pressure at all but it's impossible to get to lay flat. every time I try something like
re-positioning panels, tightening or loosening the zip ties in different places something else causes a worse problem. (see below photo).
what I was wondering was If I could temporarily hold the panel in place while I glue and glass the bottom and lower chine panels and possibly temporarily tab the panel to station D (MDF board) until rollover so that when I apply the upper chine panels everything will remain in place???
I'm thinking the panel might be warped since nothing I do resolves it.
Any assistance is appreciated !

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:48 am**

David, All I can tell you is that mine didn't touch every surface either. They were close bit not making full contact. If you look under my boat now there are still places that don't touch. All of that will be corrected when I glass the frames in place. That shape will have to be adjusted after glassing inside regardless. Concentrate on getting a fair shape. If you like go back to the early part of my build "Eric's C21" and read through it. I had many of the same questions you are asking. It will come together, Believe me.

Best of Luck!!!

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:40 pm**

Most places are close or making contact. There are a couple of places where the non contact is more than an inch. I can adjust for it but i don't know if it will stay in place after the gluing. I also notice that due to the high humidity a lot of apparent warping is taking place.
My question is if i forceably overcome all this warping will the gluing be adversely affected?

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:03 pm**

David,

The hull panels are never going to touch the frames the entire way. Your goal should be to minimize the gaps to under 1 inch. Small gaps will be filled with woodflour/epoxy mix and eventually glassed over with tape and fiberglass cloth. Your biggest concern is not to have any flat spots in the hull sides and not to have any concave or convex curves in the hull bottom. These are difficult to correct after you glass the hull.
First, I would double check and make sure all your frames are accurate and square, both in distance apart and sitting at 90 degrees on the strongback. Next, I would play around with the zip ties. I prefer to hang all panels very loose and let them sit a day. I will then start to tighten the ties very slowly working my way from stern to bow or bow to stern. Also, use the method of cutting pvc pipe and placing that in between the zip tie and the back side of the seam. This will help keep an evenly spread apart seam and avoid binding in some spots which will cause larger gaps in others (particularly the bottom of the frame). Be careful not to stitch your keel seam to tightly. This is common among first time builders and often leads to larger gaps between the frames and hull side panels. Stitching the hull definitely takes patience but will pay off when you start to glue.
The last piece of advise before you glue is to use some painters tape and tape the back side of the seams. This will help you form cleaner fillets and save time when you flip the hull.
I hope this helps, keep fighting the good fight my friend!!!

-Reid

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:26 pm**

My question is if i forceably overcome all this warping will the gluing be adversely affected?

The glue is very strong. However, if you have, out of necessity, used some weight or clamp or screw or bolt to hold together a particularly difficult part and there is a lot of stress on it, there is the off-chance it will pop when you remove the ties. In case you're concerned about this, while you're putting the putty welds between the ties, right at the stress point add a little glass tape. This will hold everything together and eliminate your concerns.

Couldn't get the panels to come together:

I gave up on zip ties in exchange for the power of a bolt:

I taped the interior just in case the glue wouldn't hold when I released the bolt. This looks cockeyed from the photo but is actually symmetrical, believe it or not:

This is not pretty, more like watching sausage being made, but it held fine, and the bow, with a bit of fairing, was just right. I'm not as neat as the good builders.

I never uploaded a close-up of the finished bow but here it is:

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:35 pm**

Thank you Reid. I have to this point taken almost all of your advice and I find I still have to loosen some stitches in the midsection And I still need to add some battens higher up to get the sag out of the mid hull however, everything is almost perfectly lined up and may only require a slight adjustments as I was able to get the gaps inside under an inch.
The lower chine panels look pretty good to me but I don't understand what you mean about flat spots. The aft section of the panels are not curved whereas the forward half of the panels seem to be curved perfectly.
Is this what you were referring to?
I will be loosening the mid centerline zip ties to allow the lower hull panels to be properly spaced on the frames.
If there is anything else that you think I should be doing please let me know. Thank you.

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:39 pm**

And thank you Tony for the explanation and the pictures.
I may be taking your idea for the bow since I have to move all of the nose panels in another eighth of an inch.
I am waiting to see what the rest of the boat looks like first after I do all my adjustments.
Actually if you look at the pictures I posted my hull looks very similar to yours at this stage except for the two problems I mentioned.

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:00 am**

This is whats driving me crazy!
I removed some stitches between frame C (third from left) and E at the centerline. I added some weight above frame C, The hull sits perfectly straight and fair.
When I re-stitch that area (whether loose or tight) and remove the weight, The bow just in front of frame C bulges up about 1 1/2 inches and screws up the straight centerline and some of the fairness! I cannot figure out the solution! I have completely unstitched and re-stitched all the panels twice and re-did that section several times all with the same result !
Any suggestions ?

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:23 am**

Can you not just leave the weights on while you glue it. Or put a few ties through the frame to hold it down.

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:26 am**

Remember you are going for fairness first , if it won't fit flush to the frames at the bow don't sweat it.
it's much easier to adjust the frames for slight deviations which you will have to do anyway after you add all the glass
tape .
[img]http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userp ... 73.JPG/img]
If you look at the bottom of the frame B near the bow you will see a good size gap . That's as tight as i could fit it
without messing up the fairness of the bottom panels. I just cut a piece to fill it it in and then glassed it into position.

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:34 am**

Sorry i tried 9 times to post an image and as usual i can't do it.

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:22 am**

Ok , thanks !

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:27 am**

Topwater...
The URL of the photo needs to have [img] on each end when you place it in the text.

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:57 pm**

topwater wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:26 am Remember you are going for fairness first , if it won't fit flush to the frames at the bow don't sweat it.
it's much easier to adjust the frames for slight deviations which you will have to do anyway after you add all the glass
tape .

If you look at the bottom of the frame B near the bow you will see a good size gap . That's as tight as i could fit it
without messing up the fairness of the bottom panels. I just cut a piece to fill it it in and then glassed it into position.

Posted: **Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:21 pm**

OK, I'm beginning to understand this concept! I was not sure of myself and I was questioning myself. So I had a friend look at the hull that I have to this point And he feels that everything is perfectly fair. So right now all I have to do is put some more zip ties on top Line the hull up with The transom, put a couple of wedges and then I should be ready to start gluing. Depending on the weather that could be in a day or two or three.

Posted: **Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:27 pm**

OK, I'm getting the hull panels ready for gluing with some final adjustments. I looked more carefully at the motor well walls. When I placed the Transom on The motor well walls protrude approximately an eighth of an inch higher than the bottom of the transom. Because right now they're resting against the bottom panels and I probably would not be able to adjust the transom with the proper gap for gluing. I know I'm likely going to have to sand down the bottom of the motor well walls when I flip the boat anyway so my question is should I do it now and at least match the transom so that I can line everything up properly? I really don't see much choice in the matter if I want to line the transom up properly with the hull. I know the transom is set at an angle but this seems a bit high.

Posted: **Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:06 am**

There's no need to trim the motorwell sides at this point, wait until you flip and glass, then trim top and or bottom.

Posted: **Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:13 pm**

Ok thanks

Posted: **Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:06 pm**

David,

I can't tell for sure what your picture is showing, a little distance would provide some context. The motor well sides are usually used to set the transom angle and hold it in place on the strong back. If that picture shows the motorwell sides 1" proud of the transom, somethings not right. How do the m/w sides line up with the m/w bulkhead?

Chuck

Posted: **Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:36 pm**

Chuck, they're about a quarter to 3/8 " higher. I thought that might be a bit long to hold the transom close enough to the lower hull panels for gluing.
Otherwise, they seem to fit everything else pretty well.
I also had them mounted approximately an eighth of an inch below the stringers I have since made them even.

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:00 am**

I finally finished stitching the bottom and lower chine panels to the point where I'm satisfied. a few wedges and I can glue.
My question is that when I placed the transom on the motorwell wall panels I noticed a small, about 1/8" warp at the center of the transom which causes the middle to fit perfectly but the both sides stick out of the panels a bit. I can even them out with gel magic and straighten the transom with fiberglass, resin and quick fair, but is this acceptable, or do I have to cut a new transom? (see pictures).

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:42 am**

I can't tell from the pic, have you laminated the transom layers together yet?

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:44 am**

Yes all four pieces are together. But the funny thing is if you look at it it looks perfect I needed a straight edge to tell it was a little off and it just went in the little bit in the middle

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:04 am**

How big a gap do you have between the molds and the hull panels at the center around station B or C?

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:20 pm**

About an inch on C.
Unless anybody thinks it's a major problem I'm going to do what I said and straighten the edge with the Gel magic.
Since the protrusion is even on both sides.

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:11 pm**

It is not a problem at all.
Fill the gaps with resin and wood flour, not Gelmagic.

Most of the time, I line up the panels with the transom and deal with the gaps at the bow but this is fine too.

Posted: **Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:15 pm**

That is great news!
THANK YOU Jacques !!!!

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:58 pm**

And If I didnt have problems I'd faint ! Another hull problem!
Finally got the lower chine and bottom panels glued together and transom is glued and perfectly fitted to the panels (with proper gap).
I brought the upper chine panels and did a dry fit. The problrm is the panels come 7/8 of an inch short on each side!!! I have no idea why this is. I dont know how to handle this.
The question is should I just glass the nose where there is a big gap or do I try to extend the panels with more plywood?
See photos below.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:04 pm**

Do you any room at the transom to move them forward a little? Maybe you could shift them forward and close some of the gap. Then fill with epoxy and wood flour.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:10 pm**

In all the boats with overlapping top side panels, I expect the bow to be rounded.
A sharp bow will chip right away and a rounded bow is prettier anyway.
You guessed right, you should round that with fiberglass tape.
I don't think that I expected a 7/8 gap, probably 1/2" but what I see in the picture is fine.
If you want, you can put a small batten in there to keep the glass from sagging when you build the rounded tip of the bow. Think of the fiberglass that will be taped on the inside, keep it clean and simple.

At that stage, in all boats, I expect the builder to "sculpt" the bow.
Stitch the panels and spot weld.
Remover the stitches and fill the gaps with putty.
That is when you shape the bow: round the intersection between bottom panel and top side panels, especially in profile.
Tape as specified then glass the outside and overlap the wide fabric over the bow.
Same inside: tape then overlaps.
That will create a very strong bow equivalent to a stem piece in wooden boat building.
That is the way the stem is built in fiberglass boat building.

Think that you are building a fiberglass boat, not a wooden boat in which all parts must be fitted to each other. It is the fiberglass that matters, the plywood is the core.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:29 pm**

Jacques, Thank You Very Much !!! Will do!

Best Regards!

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:04 pm**

I am not in town right now but on Friday, I will take pictures of what I call a "sculpted" bow. Reid did a great job of it on his FS18 kit, I"ll take pictures of it.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:56 pm**

Thank you!

Posted: **Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:02 pm**

Well, I was able to work enough to get the seems good and shaped pretty much the way I want them. I have a little more touch up to do before I'm ready to put the fiberglass tape on the seams. I temporarily fitted the upper chine panels to get an idea how I'm going to shape the upper nose and so far everything looks good. I found that there are a couple of sags in the hull which will probably need to be faired.
Does anybody ever start fairing the hull before the fiberglass goes on then finishing afterwards before the final coats of Epoxy go on before priming? Or is all the faring done after the fiberglass goes on?
I thought it would be easier to put the fiberglass on a more even hull even though the sagging is not really noticeable until you put a straight edge across it. I'm really not sure what to do there and if I do fair the hull first should I pre-coat it with epoxy?
Just an unrelated question, I am searching for pieces of wood to use for the keel and strakes. Can anyone tell me how long the keel and the strakes should be ? I know the height and width, but not the Length.
Thanks!
See photos below.

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:13 am**

David516 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:02 pm Does anybody ever start fairing the hull before the fiberglass goes on then finishing afterwards before the final coats of Epoxy go on before priming? Or is all the faring done after the fiberglass goes on?

This question is asked very now and again by builders on this forum, and the weight of responding opinion is that all fairing is best done after fibreglassing.

My hunch is that to do so beforehand, you wold need to use a filler with high structural strength, which wold make fairing a right royal pita. By doing it afterwards, you can go with a softer filler, which is far easier to fair. But I'm not an expert on the matter.

You've done a great job on getting the hull so nicely shaped.

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:07 am**

Thank you !

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:21 am**

Glossie is right on with his answers. Does not take long when looking at his build thread to know he is one sharp dude. If you can use a shim or something like that to remove the small sags it would save you some work later but either way there will be fairing to be done

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:24 pm**

OK, thank you. I will start the Biax on the seams tonight. I can't shim the panels up anymore because they seem to be warped the whole boat moves when I try to do that. But we're only talking fairing approximately an eighth of an inch and only in certain areas. Otherwise I think I'm actually in pretty decent shape!

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:56 pm**

Guys, since I am going to epoxy the entire lower Hull and start glassing the seams. I should be getting close to getting the entire hull glassed. That is assuming I can work every day for the next few days without having to deal with the constant emergencies that go on here

So I actually have two questions.
I already figured out the spray rail but I wonder if anybody has any suggestions for the type of wood that would be best for the skeg and strakes.
Also I don't know what the length of the skeg or the strakes should actually be. I know the dimensions but not the length. I also don't know but could probably guess That those parts go on after having wetted out the fiberglass but I don't know if they're supposed to go on immediately or wait until I fill the weave or wait until the boat is fared ?

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:14 pm**

The preferred wood is something like southern yellow pine, nice and hard. For the skeg 6' is good, start it a foot from the transom so you don't get any interference to the prop. For the strakes 10' should be plenty, that is what I was going to use when I was going to build the C17.

There are a couple ways to go on when to glue the strakes and skeg down. Others can give you the ways they did it.

Posted: **Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:03 pm**

OK thanks

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:36 pm**

OK, I haven't had the most time in the world this summer. As a matter of fact I've been so busy I wish I was back at work I wasn't as busy when I was working but nonetheless I got my bottom hull to the point where i'm going to start fiberglassing The seams and the transom today in the larger Sheets tomorrow. When I coated the hull I used slow Hardner last evening. I figure that gives me a couple of days without having to sand!
Here's the pictures before the tape goes on.

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:24 pm**

Man does that ever look nice and shiny! Good luck with the fiberglassing.

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:56 pm**

Thanks browndog!
I'm getting there slowly.
I took a picture of the tape on the transom because it's the first time I've ever put biax on a boat!!!

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:14 pm**

Incredibly fine work! Keep the photos coming to give us something to aspire to.

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:29 pm**

terrulian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:14 pm Incredibly fine work! Keep the photos coming to give us something to aspire to.

Tony, did you see that he's a first timer with that tape? I think we should ban him from the forum if that's what he's going to be doing "the first time". Grrrr....

David516, that's my attempt at humor to cover my jealousy. Excellent work. Keep it up and you will give Eric1, AA, and the other "production finish" guys a run for their money.

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:32 pm**

BTW, where did you get the biax with selvage? Mine had ragged edges. That's my excuse, anyway.

Posted: **Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:32 pm**

Thank you guys, you've definitely given me some extra confidence. The trick to my doing a neat is that I'm terrified to screw up. But no I actually never did fiberglass on anything but displacing the panels until now. And Tony, I got the 6 inch biax from Reid at Bateau. It does not seem too badly priced at all. It does wet out nice but I keep after the edges as it's drying I figure it'll save me more work in the future.
I'm going to finish the seams tonight and do the bottom panels tomorrow and I will post the pictures I'm hoping it comes as good as this did!!!

Posted: **Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:21 pm**

I was able to do all the taping of the seams last night. What surprises me is how nicely the Biax conforms to different things. Although I will say doing the sides vertically you guys must've heard me from where you are because boy was I Cursing. That is quite a job. Anyway now tonight I'm going to file down the high spots and tomorrow I'll fill the weave with another coat of Apoxsee and put the 52 inch biax on the bottom panels in the lower chine panels. As slow as I am I think I'm actually making some progress here!!!
Some pictures from last night. As always, any advice you guys give me from anything you see is always very well received thank you.

Posted: **Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:39 pm**

Looking good! Are you sure this is your first build?!

Posted: **Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:57 pm**

Thank you. Definitely my first build! I have done quite a bit of carpentry but I see that that is extremely different than building a boat. I do ask a lot of questions though.
I also am much slower than most people because of my knees which I guess is a blessing because I have no choice but to take things very slow and to notice what I'm doing. But it's nice to know that you guys think it's coming along well. The encouragement gives me a lot more confidence than I would have otherwise.

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:13 am**

David516 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:33 pm I think I somehow have a big problem! .................... I'm beginning to wonder If my project is over before It goes any Further!!!
Right now praying!!!

You sure have come a long way since July 16! Your build is look great. Build on.

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:42 am**

You are absolutely right!
Two things I have definitely learned. Patience and how to ask questions! With questions, come answers!

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:08 am**

Looking good David!

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:09 pm**

Not sure how to word this question. Of course I have all the seams on the lower panels taped including the centerline and transom and I have now put another coat of epoxy over everything. First I sanded high spots nubs, Sharp glass edges, etc. And now I want to put the two large sheets of biax on the hull bottom.
The question is do I have to completely fill the weave on the seam taping until it's perfectly smooth? Or is the one coating of epoxy good enough?
I posted a close-up picture of the weave to show what it is like right now. And that was done 15 hours ago. Slow hardener.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:33 pm**

I'd give it a quick sanding with some rough grit to knock down the stitch threads, they're not doing anything for you now that the fiberglass is down. Sand the cotton threads, not into the fiberglass.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:05 pm**

OK will do. Thanks Hank

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:02 pm**

I agree. Sand until you see a cross pattern.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:21 pm**

Ok thanks Barry

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:02 pm**

Just an update.
Let me first say that I hope everyone in Florida remains safe and dry !

Finally got the first half of the hull glassed. looke almost perfect. took 5 hours (I move slow)!
noticed some tiny (pin head sized) bubbles just under the surface. they do not affect adhesion nor do they protrude...
Dont know what they are but i'm not too concerned at this point as most should come out when I sand the threads before filling the weave.
With any luck Ill get side two done tomorrow!!!
Hope everyone is well.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:08 pm**

The layup looks great.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:37 pm**

Really nice work David!! Speed is not a good gauge in boat building, take your time and do it correctly just as you are doing!!! Again, nice work!! Jeff

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:08 pm**

Thank you!
The work goes on !
If anyone out there has an idea on how to get that spray spray rail bent at the chine feel free to let me know!

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:13 pm**

Excellent progress David516

Marc

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:21 pm**

Thank you Marc !

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:18 am**

David516 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:08 pm Thank you!
The work goes on !
If anyone out there has an idea on how to get that spray spray rail bent at the chine feel free to let me know!

You don't say what material you intend to make the spray rail out of. If it is plywood, the easiest way is to clamp a wider strip around there and trace it, thereby showing the curved line to cut it by. Make it out of at least two layers and offset the seams. If you will be using lumber, you can build it up with thinner strips that will bend more easily, or you could cut kerfs in the area of the sharpest bends, or you could wrap it in plastic and steam it until it bends to shape.

I like the plywood version, and then it could be topped with another strip of metal, rubber or wood.

Posted: **Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm**

Thank you Hank. Yes I was considering plywood or a strip of pine.
I do think I'm going to go with the plywood.

Posted: **Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:06 pm**

Take a look at how Eric1 is fitting the rubrail on his build, it is a straightforward and accurate method for cutting the strips of ply: https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.ph ... start=1200

Posted: **Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:35 am**

I built my spray rail out of 1 1/2" cypress and bent it on in one piece . I used long screws and big fender washers to hold
it in place while the epoxy cured. My thread has pic's Topwater NV 23.

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