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Jaysen's Mini 580 plan -- on indefinite pause :(

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:43 am
by Jaysen
Some of you may have seen me make a post about a new one design class called "Mini 580". The class is developed by Don McIntyre of GGR fame (and many other achievements). The goal stated in my words is "to have an 'everyman' international race class that reduce the cost of entry to less than the price of a car".

The class is being opened for design on March 14. I'm hoping to get a hull number in the low digits and add the class to the Charleston Ocean Race Association (CORA) program. If all goes well, I may be able to enter the 2024 circumnavigation race. That's my aspirational goal.

So what am I doing here?

This forum has more knowledge, given generously, than just about anyplace I've ever seen. Jeff and the BBC crew have graciously allowed me to use the forum as the build tracker while I work on the build (and all the other nonsense associated with a race team). BBC will be my supplier of materials and I hope to get a few speedups via their CNC and suppliers for sails, trailers and other things.

My wife blames Scott (Boogieman), Tony (turrelian), and Dave (Fuzz) for this.
* Scott because she didn't realize I already knew about the 580 but I replied to his post
* Tony because I keep mentioning him as someone I hope to mine for information
* Dave because Alaska didn't dissuade me from cold ocean water.
She would also love to have you all down for dinner sometime. She said that with a look that would make me nervous. :)

That's my big plan anyway. Let's see where this goes. I'll post a bit more later today as we solidify the formal plans.

Fellow Class Mini 580 builders, see my formal welcome and links to information in this post.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:20 am
by terrulian
You went sailing/boating in Alaska?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:30 am
by Bogieman
That's great news and a great plan! Can't wait to follow along (and help with labor when I can)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:30 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:20 am You went sailing/boating in Alaska?
No sailing, but Fuzz took me "fishing". I'm not convinced there are fish in the water up there so it might be called "bait drowning". It was "warm" for them (not for me) and the weather was decent. Their normal waves had me a bit green, but in typical "Jaysen is an idiot" fashion I enjoyed the experience.

As much as I have said "the earth can recover from our climate nonsense" what I saw with my own eyes gave me pause. It's hard to deny the negative impact when you look at a picture beautiful picture of a glacier from a couple decades back,and, being in the exact location of the picture, you now see two mountain peaks separated by a valley. A deep valley. It's saddening and furthers my determination to be more conscious of my energy use. To the point that I want this boat to be fossil and combustion free for non-heat related thing (cooking/cabin heat). More on that when we get into the build...

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:34 am
by Jaysen
Bogieman wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:30 am That's great news and a great plan! Can't wait to follow along (and help with labor when I can)
Mrs is expecting you to help break in the hull for the first couple sails... Just warning you.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:23 pm
by Jaysen
Covid has made one thing easier for me... the go live for the class is now 9a ET (1400 Amsterdam). It will be an online only thing now.

There is a new render on FB that confirms my belief that the overall spec is a slightly modified sb18/i550 style 5 panel hull. As a one design class much of the customization that you have with sb18 will be limited but I'm ok with that.

At this point we know we have the following items to resolve in order from "oh fork" to "eh"
1. Need to secure a build location: this will either be rented space in CHS or moving back to our home for 6+ mo. I'd prefer the latter.
2. Need to lose about 60lbs and get down to about 160lbs. Not too concerned with that, but it will be a hard thing.
3. Looks like I need to sell the MG and get a truck (or just buy a truck).
4. Need to get CORA engaged to add the class to the race roster. Not sure I'll be ready for race week but I'd like be able to have it listed by then.
5. Need to set up the formal team and get insurance. That is one I'm hoping to delay a bit

I do have some folks keeping me in check (aka not letting me quit my job). Same folks that are working on a side project so we know we all work well together. They aren't into sailing, but they are super supportive. Depending on how things go they are likely to be involved with the race team as well. We shall see.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:20 pm
by terrulian
Sounds like things are getting serious. 8)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:06 pm
by Bogieman
Jaysen wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:34 am
Bogieman wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:30 am That's great news and a great plan! Can't wait to follow along (and help with labor when I can)
Mrs is expecting you to help break in the hull for the first couple sails... Just warning you.
Yes!!! I’ll be ready

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:58 pm
by Aripeka Angler
I don’t know squat about sailing but I’ll support your project. Sounds like fun.
Will commit to donate 3 gallons of epoxy to the build.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:22 am
by cape man
Keep the MG and just buy a truck.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:35 am
by Jaysen
Aripeka Angler wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:58 pm I don’t know squat about sailing but I’ll support your project. Sounds like fun.
Will commit to donate 3 gallons of epoxy to the build.
Thank you! I'll let you know when we are close to start and we can arrange a pickup (plans to visit BBC aready being made so I'll be driving right by you).

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:37 am
by Jaysen
cape man wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:22 am Keep the MG and just buy a truck.
That negotiation is on going. The MG seems to eat engines based on my lead foot. Mrs is all "how much boat can you build for the price of an engine" and I'm all "crap... she makes a solid case!"

If I plan this right I find a 60's dodge or chevy body on a modern chassis. That kind of hits all the key points for me :)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:14 am
by Jaysen
As we get nearer the formal launch more info is coming out... Here's the materials list: https://classmini580.com/materials/

Looks about the same as SB18. Not sure about the screws. May ask if that can be replaced with tape/glue if they are not temp for holding. I like that they have lighting and everything else called out. they have an EU vendor that sells a complete kit (no price). i'm still going BBC because we all know Jeff and team level of service and quality.

They have some renderings up now: https://classmini580.com/gallery/

Definitely a departure from the SB18/i550 open concept. Based on the materials list there is more then a trivial amount of welding and bending to do. I do like the implications that the plans include pushpit/pulpit specs as well.

BOOOO!!! can't buy plans till 3/21 (or maybe 6/1)... https://classmini580.com/plans/

Still lots of good info there. It does feel like they are reserving the early sequences for the bigger orgs. I do understand the desire to have people that know what they are doing provide real feedback on the plans initially. Still... feels like a bit of a shut out of the new guy.

Yes... I'm behaving like a teenage girl with a crush.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:05 am
by terrulian
The list of gear is quite complete on first glance but as far as I can tell misses some things:
1) They show dividers and other nav gear but no charts, which brings up a related issue: You could theoretically get around the world with an inflatable globe--that is, until you have to close the coast. That may be necessary at any point in case of some kind of failure. Also, plenty of people now are comfortable voyaging with electronic charts, but I wouldn't be.
2) There are several electric fixtures--lights, radios, batteries--but I see no method of charging.
3) There is no system to get yourself up the mast.

Maybe I've overlooked these.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:17 am
by Jaysen
The list is "recommended" for the racing but neither complete nor required. I'm sure the class spec (when actually visible to mere mortals) would detail the required gear. So you would be cleared but likely not smart.

I'm with you in wanting paper charts for areas that I expect to be close to shore. Not sure how I'd plan that for the global other than ±2 quadrants for each port of call (the global is legged with stops in each leg near as I can tell). Right now I'm not sure I'll be able to make the global though as waiting to Jun1 to build may make it hard to qualify and get support by 2024.

I have an open, private question to Don M about "qualified builders" to see if I can get plans before the new "amateur builder" open date of June 1. I've a few options if I can't get plans early. I don't want to, but I could just pay for a spec hull. I can buy some extra vaca and hope the weather and epoxy gods comply. Or...

Anyway... Don has been quick to reply. I'm sure we can figure this out.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:44 am
by terrulian
OK, so how do YOU plan to charge batteries?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:54 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:44 am OK, so how do YOU plan to charge batteries?
Well... let's start with the standard "I can put solar on there". We all agree that may not cut it.

I'm working with some new hybrid power storage that should allow me to be much more efficient in storage (higher density) with less exacting V+ inputs. Using a 3p custom wound stator and some magnets it's pretty easy to generate high voltage an amperage. From there a couple of hw+software tweaks and I can charge that storage solution pretty easy now that I've eliminated the LiPO/AGM charge issues. Add that to the move to all high efficiency circuits and it's only a matter of what method do I use to turn the generator? I'm working on a handheld POC to charge my phone and speakers on Lil Bit :)

I've been working on this for a few years. Finally have a real reason to go past the napkin and into the "put some $$ into it" phase.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:58 am
by Jaysen
Holy smokes! Just had an FB - IM exchange with Don. Based on Lil Bit and my other woodworking, home building experience I should be good for the "experienced builder" early plans!

If y'all can't tell, I caught the race bug last summer. Tony introducing me to the GGR was the death knell for my sanity. Mrs is on board after a couple trips on the j30. So we are doing this!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:07 am
by Jaysen
Jaysen wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:54 am
terrulian wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:44 am OK, so how do YOU plan to charge batteries?
Well... let's start with the standard "I can put solar on there". We all agree that may not cut it.

I'm working with some new hybrid power storage that should allow me to be much more efficient in storage (higher density) with less exacting V+ inputs. Using a 3p custom wound stator and some magnets it's pretty easy to generate high voltage an amperage. From there a couple of hw+software tweaks and I can charge that storage solution pretty easy now that I've eliminated the LiPO/AGM charge issues. Add that to the move to all high efficiency circuits and it's only a matter of what method do I use to turn the generator? I'm working on a handheld POC to charge my phone and speakers on Lil Bit :)

I've been working on this for a few years. Finally have a real reason to go past the napkin and into the "put some $$ into it" phase.
New posting of class rules may invalidate a lot of my charging plan as they require AGM. I may be able to move my system to just be the charger to the AGM.

If you want to cry a little look at the class rule. It's targeted more toward a GGR style "man and the sea" but allows more electronics for nav.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:22 am
by terrulian
OK, well, you're way beyond me on the electrical system, as I anticipated. I'll look at the class rules.
BTW, I found Don was extremely good about responding to messages during the GG race, and I had a couple of interesting exchanges. I don't know how the guy has time for all that he does.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:27 am
by terrulian
I didn't realize this is not a non-stop race, which I find reassuring. It also skips the Horn, although the Cape of Good Hope can also be dangerous.
I couldn't find the class rules with my brief attempts.
Are you aware of Matt Rutherford? Another guy doing something I wouldn't attempt.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:30 pm
by Jaysen
Class rules (which I find a bit confusing and contradictory to other statements on the site): https://classmini580.com/class-rules/
Association rules: https://classmini580.com/class580/

The class rules seem to rule out a lot of the "acceptable customizations" specifically mentioned on FB and in the FAQ. I'll be querying on those Monday. The areas that "hurt me" are the AGM house, out board requirement (they do allow electric, but I've other plans), and the "commercial windvanes" (explicitly stated home made are allowed in several other places). I'm sure it will all work out.

I'm not aware of Matt. Google search will commence once the wife is irritated with me enough to no longer desire my presence. :)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:20 pm
by terrulian
OK, I see they do require charts and a sextant, which I approve of of course. Don't know about the signal flags which I noticed somewhere else. I'm not sure who they are intended for. I had references aboard to look them up but we didn't carry a set. Be interesting what scenario they have in mind; I'm guessing SAR.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:54 pm
by Fuzz
Jaysen you blow boaters speak a strange language so I have little to add but I will be watching and hoping this goes well for you.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:19 pm
by Jaysen
Well Fuzz, I’ll get you some boat porn. I think that makes up for the blow boat crypto...

Don M and I are discussing options for what we can and can not do as home built.

I’ve made a couple of quick build quality decisions.
1. Outside has to be right.
2. Inside will ugly. Race boat, not a show boat. When it stops being a race boat we can clean up the human spaces.
3. Livery will be EMC with Fighting Lady Yellow as the base. There will be high visibility orange in patterns per recommendation.
4. As much as I want to do carbon mast and spars I’m going to go aluminum initially.

I’ll be reaching out to Jeff about pushpits and pulpit. They have to built to spec but Boogie has had trouble getting anyone to build to plan without the hull on prem. One design kind of says “build to spec” so hopefully Jeff can help with that a bit.

Realtors are next on my list of actions. Likely to be less than fun ...

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:41 pm
by Jaysen
There’s a bit of “what do we do” with the plans. The designer of the mini 580 has specified ply thicknesses that are not readily available. This means that all boats built in certain regions will be over weight by over 200lbs from the start. Since there are races with max weight limits this will be a big problem. I’m hoping the decision goes to using 9mm in place of 8/10 and 18mm in place of 20. Then a layer of glass where needed for safety. The naval architect is already engaged.

In less frustrating areas the Boss has decreed “you shall stick to the plan” for naming this boat. She shall be called:

Lil Bit More

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:29 pm
by Fuzz
You need to be building something. It will keep you out of trouble.................a little :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:21 pm
by Netpackrat
As I said in the other thread, it seems overly elaborate if suicide is the goal. But as to charging, have you considered packing along a towed generator? I know it will be a race, but you will almost certainly encounter conditions where a drogue may be a desirable piece of equipment anyway. And the solar probably won't be doing you much good under those conditions.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:44 pm
by Jaysen
While not a personal goal, going out shouting “bring it!” to the deity is more my style than anything graceful or peaceful.

Towed or wheeled are plans for “not racing” and will be options on board as well. Race charge will have provide a zero drag option. The core of the system will be agnostic to the source of torque. The boat is just a proving ground.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:42 pm
by Jaysen
News from the Mini 580 team: 9mm is adequate for the hull but will require extra layer of glass. There are questions about needing to lam to 9mm to 18 vs buy sheet of 18mm for keel panel (I'm a troublemaker). This is good news as it lowers the cost enough to move from Meranti to Oakume or, considering that this hull will most likely get injured regularly, start a repair fund :) Will need to chat with Jeff on which ply I want. Oakume seems like the smartest as I'll need to counter the weight of extra glass.

Poor Jeff... more PM from me are coming his way!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:48 am
by Jeff
OK, now I am clear as I was sure you had received the approval to use 9MM. We can discuss the options of Okoume BS1088 versus Meranti BS1088. I will also check the weight of each so you have that information!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:04 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Jeff!

One of the "gotchas" here is that there is a minimum hull weight for the structural hull after glass. While I need to keep it light I need to make sure I don't undercut it too much. There are a couple of other discussions I want to have with designer/association about the use of timber frames vs ply frames that may change the glass and wight conversations. All in all the basic build is pretty straight forward. I just want to make sure the limited supply of "matching" products doesn't get me into trouble.

Examples:
* 200g/600g do not actually match up with 6oz/17oz (light) so we need to get approval for that.
* The reliance on timbers not readily available in the US (larch is a large portion of the frames hence my desire to make them from ply :))
* The resin called out seems to have an odd ratio/weight (weight based ratio that is variable based on hardener).

I'm confident that we can get the hull made with all BBC materials. I just want to have the conversations with the designer/association before we start laying out the cash.

Unlike Lil Bit, the hull and epoxy really will be the cheaper part. My current guesstimate for the unfitted but completed hull is right around $5k. I'm probably a bit under. I'm guessing I'll over buy some things (ply, glass) and under buy others (how many gallons marin == 22kg? and can I be that exact on consumption... and oh, btw, I need to do a full layer not just seams so... bah!)

Anyway... I'm enjoying the planning so far.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:13 am
by terrulian
Does the $5000 count all gear? That seems unlikely.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:44 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:13 am Does the $5000 count all gear? That seems unlikely.
Heck no! That's just the hull completed to paint. No outfitting. The target cost for these completely outfit is €20k so figure $us25k. I'll look on the used market for something things that can be reliably sourced (winches, cleats, blocks) but will go new for the the critical (mast, boom, sails, etc). I'm also committed to making some things like the windvane.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:16 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:42 pm News from the Mini 580 team: 9mm is adequate for the hull but will require extra layer of glass. There are questions about needing to lam to 9mm to 18 vs buy sheet of 18mm for keel panel (I'm a troublemaker). This is good news as it lowers the cost enough to move from Meranti to Oakume or, considering that this hull will most likely get injured regularly, start a repair fund :) Will need to chat with Jeff on which ply I want. Oakume seems like the smartest as I'll need to counter the weight of extra glass.

Poor Jeff... more PM from me are coming his way!
Make sure you understand the cube rule before deciding a thickness change. You can't achieve it with glass without creating an excess of weight.

Basically thickness creates stiffness.

1mm^3 = 1
2mm^3 = 8
9mm^3 = 729
10mm^3 = 1000

So, while 2mm is twice as thick it is 8 times stiffer and 10mm is 10 times thicker, but 1000 times stiffer.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:29 am
by Jaysen
In this case we are going from 10-9 and 20-18. The stiffness should be able to be made up with glass but there will be a weight penalty. I'm thinking that I can mitigate some of that with oakume.

The designer has been involved with the changes (this is a class wide change). He agrees that the 9mm would be completely satisfactory for the hull. They are adding glass layer to make up for "worst case". The actual plans have glass only in the seams. Personally I like the full coverage.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:50 am
by terrulian
With regard to cost: Your plan is a good one. It is also possible to buy a refurbished life raft, or buy a used one and have it serviced, as it will be one of the big expenses. I'm not sure that would satisfy the rules. I didn't have the nerve for that and bought a new one.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:58 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:50 am With regard to cost: Your plan is a good one. It is also possible to buy a refurbished life raft, or buy a used one and have it serviced, as it will be one of the big expenses. I'm not sure that would satisfy the rules. I didn't have the nerve for that and bought a new one.
My recollection is that all safety devices (pirbs, rafts, etc) had to be new. I'm budgeting about $5k just for that. Only need a four man raft so it isn't too bad. I may get used for early runs (non-racing) as that will delay that expense a bit.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:28 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:29 am In this case we are going from 10-9 and 20-18. The stiffness should be able to be made up with glass but there will be a weight penalty. I'm thinking that I can mitigate some of that with oakume.

The designer has been involved with the changes (this is a class wide change). He agrees that the 9mm would be completely satisfactory for the hull. They are adding glass layer to make up for "worst case". The actual plans have glass only in the seams. Personally I like the full coverage.
You do realize a millimeter of ply is lighter than a millimeter of glass n resin?

So, if you are adding another layer of 6 oz glass; not sure if that is a millimeter, but for racing..

Is this just a sourcing issue?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:38 am
by Jaysen
Yes. Glass heavier. 2-4mm wood is heavier too. The option was 10 or 12 and we successfully argued that 12 would not bend to the curves. That left 9 with concerns of strengthening which resulted “more glass” solution. I think we are good though as now the entire hull is one size ply. I may clean out Jeff’s 9mm at some point. :)

And yes on sourcing. The architect is Poland. Poland still has 10mm ply. It isn’t just US but many other build areas that only have imperial equivalents available.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:38 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:38 am Yes. Glass heavier. 2-4mm wood is heavier too. The option was 10 or 12 and we successfully argued that 12 would not bend to the curves. That left 9 with concerns of strengthening which resulted “more glass” solution. I think we are good though as now the entire hull is one size ply. I may clean out Jeff’s 9mm at some point. :)

And yes on sourcing. The architect is polish. Poland still makes 10mm ply. He offered to supply until the price of shipping and import was raised. It isn’t just US but many other build area only have imperial equivalents available.

10-4~good luck

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:43 am
by Jaysen
Plans are available to purchase March 21. That seems simple... Except the class originator is Australian, the plan developer is in Poland, the hosting is in the US. So when exactly does March 21 start?

I'm wearing out the F5 key on my keyboard....

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:19 pm
by Bogieman
Jaysen wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:43 am Plans are available to purchase March 21. That seems simple... Except the class originator is Australian, the plan developer is in Poland, the hosting is in the US. So when exactly does March 21 start?

I'm wearing out the F5 key on my keyboard....
GMT?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:21 pm
by Jaysen
Hoping. Just hope f5 lasts that long.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:39 pm
by Jaysen
I HAVE AN ORDER!!!

Too bad I have to wait to Monday to get the formal purchase completed. US banking laws seem to force manual interaction for international money wires. Monday I'll work with a bank to get the Euros over to them. Then comes the interaction with designer and the next waiting games start.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:59 pm
by terrulian
8)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:31 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks to some research an assistance from Jane (that name should ring a bell with GGR followers) I am confirmed with my purchase of the plans!

Now we wait for the designer to get back with the needed "check list" and for the plans to show up at my door. Can't want to get this show on the road!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:43 pm
by terrulian
Yep, I know who Jane is.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:17 pm
by Jaysen
This is fun! Seriously.

Being in the ground floor of the a new class means there are things that need figured out. Ply thickness availability is driving changes. Lack of built hulls representing various skill levels make weight minimums unknown at this point. All this makes questions like ply type selection difficult. If I can get to weigh in early enough then I’m an input to the decision making. If I’m late and light then I’ve potentially wasted dollars on oakume (looks like the EU sika builds are mostly pine based from the photos).

At this point We’ve reduced the ply to
1 sheet 6mm
23 sheets 9mm

Need plans to see need for dimensioned lumber and gusset ply. Getting closer!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:41 am
by Netpackrat
Even if your hull ends up light, would that not be better? I assume you would then be required to add additional ballast, which could be located to best effect, rather than distributed more or less evenly throughout the hull? Honestly it sounds like kind of a shit show if the designer didn't even take into account what materials would be commonly available to the majority of prospective builders of an international class boat. I could not see Jacques making that mistake. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:52 am
by Jaysen
Net, I don't think location will be an option. I think the question they will ask is "what did you not do correctly and where did you skimp on glass/epoxy/ply?" And if it turns out that the builder is just better at glass/resin ratio the assignment of weighted location is likely to be determined but others. I prefer to just avoid the problem altogether.

The availability issue was a pretty big surprise to everyone not in the US and UK. Those are not "majority" builder for this type of program. Don seemed surprised at the number of plans sold in the first 24h and by the distribution. That's a good thing though as it shows that he's found the sweet spot between the "self guided micro racer" and the "multi gazillion dollar budget racer". I'm aware of three other US builders and one in CA. And this is before plans are really available (several are preorder; I don't know how many are already approved for immediate start). And since hull #1 is just completing there are a number of things that everyone will be discovering in near realtime with these builds.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:58 am
by Jaysen
Received notice today... hull ID 4. As if I wasn’t motivated enough to build a class compliant hull...

Plans are going digital. I still need to communicate info from builder. They should be with me shortly.

Ive asked that this thread be my official build thread as required by class requirements. I’ll be updating lost #1 with some requested info later this morning.

Not sure about moving with covid happening. We shall see.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:53 am
by terrulian
All very exciting, really!
It is so unfortunate we have this virus running around to take a bit of the wind out of our sails. So be very careful about everything you touch for awhile. Don't let the stars get in your eyes, is I think the way my mother would have put it.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:06 am
by Jeff
Nice Jaysen!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:21 am
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:53 am All very exciting, really!
It is so unfortunate we have this virus running around to take a bit of the wind out of our sails. So be very careful about everything you touch for awhile. Don't let the stars get in your eyes, is I think the way my mother would have put it.
Well... For not it is all waiting and electronic. There are things that I can get done for a bit. The one difficulty for me is the build space. I have options but not sure I could really relocation my living quarters for a couple months. Might try moving back to the house but that's going to have it's own issues at this point.

Right now I think I'm going to see if we can start the association process for the US and do as much of that as possible.

Still... #4. That makes me smile.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:30 pm
by Jaysen
Hello fellow Class Mini 580 builders! Welcome to my build of hull #4. To say I'm excited to be building an ocean going hull is kind of like saying "those of us building mini 580 like the idea of sailing".

Let's get some book keeping out of the way...
  • If your looking for build materials at good prices and with the best customer service, please contact Boat Builder Central (link up there ^). Jeff, the owner, has been super supportive and I would appreciate it if you gave him an opportunity to give you a quote.
  • If you want to contact me, please join the forum. It is free and the folks here are ready to help. Once you join the forum please use private message or the little "talking bubble" over there --> to email me.
  • I'm keeping a public google sheet detailing my products purchased, the estimated costs, the actual costs and any details about the the purchase. This sheet will evolve over time.
  • The photos in this thread are visible in my Lil Bit More photo gallery. Please do not comment on the photos in the gallery. If you have questions or comments, please make them in this thread or in PM. I do not monitor the gallery, so if you do comment there I will likely miss it.
  • Here is a post that lists links to my tips for other builders of the Mini 580. <no link yet>
  • Here is a post that lists links to my "well that didn't work" moments. <no link yet>
  • Here is a post that lists links to my "opinions on products, method, etc. <no link yet>
Let's talk about my desire to build a Mini 580....

One of my fellow BBC builders here made the following comment regarding the 2024 Global. I find his approach hilarious as well as enlightening when I look at this from someone else's perspective.
Netpackrat wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:21 pmAs I said in the other thread, it seems overly elaborate if suicide is the goal.
My response was pretty much "normal" for Jaysen...
Jaysen wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:44 pmWhile not a personal goal, going out shouting “bring it!” to the deity is more my style than anything graceful or peaceful.
When you think about what we are building, why we are building, and what we want to do with the our completed builds, we are either nuts, unafraid of death or willing to embrace risks normal people can't see as acceptable. What is wrong with us?

We live in a world of constant screams that we need bigger, faster, automated, mass produced, and expensive. I've dreamed of sailing for years but until I built Lil Bit (JM V12) I had never really sailed on my own. LIl Bit was intended to get me to fishing holes and shuttle the Mrs to a sand bar with no engines. Just wind and oars. Prior to Lil Bit I loved the idea of sailing... once I was in Lil Bit... good lord I love it!

Not long after building Lil Bit my wife and I "semi relocated" to Charleston South Carolina USA. Lil Bit stays at our home and I hated not getting to sail every day. It wasn't long until I found myself on a J30 working as crew for weekly harbor and occasional offshore races. My favorite sail was when we ran a race from Charleston harbor to Hilton Head Island (near where Lil Bit stays). The seats run 12'+ and winds in the 30mph range. Not having spent much time (any) in those conditions, I found myself terribly seasick but loving every minute on the boat. As night feel and conditions worsened I asked the captain "where should I be?" He pointed to starboard push pit. I sat down, lashed myself to the rail and proceeded to check out. I remember being working up a few times and hearing "are you ok" and "we need to reef". According to the Captain I always replied with "I LOVE THIS" and then hopped to. That race sealed it for me. I love sailing.

I looked at my options Mrs and I considered a live-aboard. There are reasons we are unable to do that. I considered a J30, but no matter how "affordable" the initial purchase is, the overall cost just didn't add up. The same was true for all the pocket cruisers. Right about the time I said to a friend "I think I'm never going to find the right boat", Don McIntyre posts about Class Mini 580. A small, home built, inexpensive, ocean crosser that hits all the compromises AND he's putting together an international class for racing AROUND THE WORLD!!!

My plan is to make the 2024 global. I don't know if that is possible. I have a lot of sailing to do just to have the needed qualified hours (Lil Bit More will be were most of those hours are logged). I still have a day job so I'm likely to need some "alternate funding" if the Globe becomes possible. I'll need to lick that sea sickness thing. And I really like my wife so I need to make sure she is really OK with me heading off into the blue for weeks at a time with limited contact. But I'm game for it.

I think that's enough of me meandering. If you have questions about me, what I'm planning, how you can be involved, or just want to call me stupid feel free to PM or post on this thread.

Lets get her built!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:41 pm
by terrulian
Beautiful, Jaysen.
You must have a hell of a great wife. So do I.
I'm sure you'll keep us posted and I'll be tuned in.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:46 am
by fallguy1000
Good luck.

If you need any white oak. Let me know. I have some. A bit heavy likely for the build.

What is the keel made of anyhow?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:24 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Tony! She has to be a saint to have stuck with me 26yr (30 if you count the not married years).

FG, the bulb is cast lead, the wing steel. They do specify oak for deck support. Waiting for the plans to arrive to determine needs. The little boat has an 8’ beam to there will be some long pieces.

On other news I will need to maintain a non-BBC blog. I’ll work with Jeff and crew to see if we can link the two to allow seamless content sharing. Wouldn’t want Fuzz to forget which site he needs to login to for a does of boat porn.

At least that will keep me busy for a few hours.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:38 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:24 am Thanks Tony! She has to be a saint to have stuck with me 26yr (30 if you count the not married years).

FG, the bulb is cast lead, the wing steel. They do specify oak for deck support. Waiting for the plans to arrive to determine needs. The little boat has an 8’ beam to there will be some long pieces.

On other news I will need to maintain a non-BBC blog. I’ll work with Jeff and crew to see if we can link the two to allow seamless content sharing. Wouldn’t want Fuzz to forget which site he needs to login to for a does of boat porn.

At least that will keep me busy for a few hours.
I can donate some oak. I have some xtra in white and the less boat friendly red.

Just pm me. White is heavier. If you are encapsulating red; that can work to save a pound or 5.

U pay shipping is all.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:43 pm
by Jaysen
Thanks FG1K. I'll be in touch. Once I see the plans I'll decide what to use.

Re: Jaysen's Globe 580 plan

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:57 pm
by Jaysen
Fecal matter is getting real!

Been in communication with Mr McIntyre. I have queries into Jeff on some materials. I have a couple of other NA builders looking for supplies. I have a pile of questions lined up for the designer. I have a "class compliant" blog setup on my personal site (https://jaysenodell.com). I will duplicate a lot of content while offloading images to personal blog. If I can find a PHPBB plugin I'll enable it but for now you will need a facebook account or create a new account on my site. If enough folks ask I will gladly add new login aggregates if possible.

Ok enough of that. New post will be out tomorrow. The build plan to maximize build while minimizing need to travel to Beaufort will be explained. A few more tidbits about he build plan will be revealed. A few of my nits may be mentioned as well.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:09 am
by Netpackrat
Actually went to the website and watched the promoter's video on it. For some stupid reason I had assumed the globe race would be a southern ocean route. But they are actually going through Panama and over the top of Australia, which seems significantly less insane. Still couldn't pay me to do it, but perhaps my earlier comment re: suicide methods was a little excessive.

Minor question and I am sure they have (or will have) such details all worked out, but I didn't see any provision for auxiliary propulsion, and it was my understanding that you couldn't do the canal without an engine. Is the plan to ship/truck the boats across, or will there be some special arrangement to tow them through the canal or something?

Other thing I noticed was the simple 5 panel hull construction. Not sure where I have seen that before but looked familiar... :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:35 am
by fallguy1000
The only way I run open ocean in an 18 footer is if she is self righting.

Is it, assuming dismasted, or with sheet furled, indeed sef righting?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:52 am
by Jaysen
Netpackrat, there is a requirement for outboard. Allows for direct dinosaur or differed dinosaur style (fossil fuel or electric). I’m assuming we will need to raft and transit as trailer/shipping requires removing keep and rigging. That seems... prone to failure. That detail is still unannounced (4 years out yet). The route does go south around Africa so it isn’t completely sane.

And yes, the similarly to the SB18 is not lost on me.

FG1k, it is self righting. There is a 130kg lead bulb on the end of a 1m steel wing. Should the keel be knocked off the 580 is less stable inverted and would roll back. Not as fast as an AD or VG but it would roll back. There are 2foamed crash boxes forward, a watertight hatch/bulkhead under the mast and the cabin aft bulk head extends below deck unbroken. That effectively seals the boat into thirds that, with some required foam, should make it “unsinkable”.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:13 am
by terrulian
Jaysen,
1)There's plenty of challenges out there without going around the great capes. Going around non-stop as in the recent Golden Globe obviously takes a bit of insanity, but counter-intuitively, there is one part that is easier. You don't close the coast anywhere, so navigation can be sloppy and you still don't hit the rocks. Getting into unfamiliar harbors can be scary, particularly after dark or in rain or fog. We normally stood off, because we're sissies (or one might say prudent); but you'll be racing so you'll have to soldier on.
2) All ballasted monohull sailboats are self-righting...you know that but I'm just responding to fallguy.
3) In regarding to self-propulsion through the Panama Canal: You will have an auxiliary but still, there may be a slight problem which will nonetheless be workable. If you don't have enough speed to make it from the Atlantic locks to the Pacific locks during the daytime--and it's over twenty miles--you have to anchor overnight in the lake until the next afternoon's descent. Twenty miles should be doable for your boat, or would be, except you have no control over what time you get to start. I recall we had to motorsail for all we were worth and I think they want you to do about 7-8 knots. And by the way, people have swum the canal although it took special permission, but not for a very long time and I doubt it would be allowed today. Speed is also a bit of a deal in the Suez, which is a two-day trip. You overnight in Ismailia. I'm sure Don will work this out.
4) A very gentle word of caution: No boat has ever been built that can't sink. 8O :help:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:11 am
by cape man
I have been watching with interest, and admire your insanity! Go baby, Go!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:46 am
by Jaysen
Tony, replies tied to your enumeration for clarity. :)
1. The course is not set in stone yet, but it currently avoids north east Africa and the Suez. Part of that is to add the "big water" and part to avoid the safety issues of that region. I think the times have changed enough to warrant avoidance for small craft that are on independent schedules and can not be escorted. Also... $$$$. Current CG580 fees for the race are $7+k. We expect those to go up. As to ports, we are only forced into checkpoint ports. We are free to stop anywhere we need. With a 5ft draft I'm not sure I can actually get into ports here in SC. Noosa would be out of the question!
2. There is that, but if you look at the VG and AD designed by JM, they are unstable in any position not "upright". The GC580 is not as unstable, but even sans-ballast it would tend to self right. That was asked of Don in one of the comments.
3. I suspect we will not be transiting on the water. There is no position on this, but it would make sense for all parties be loaded on a transport and moved over land or via canal. I don't know this for a fact, but a unrigged hull fits in a 20' container. a 7.8m mast would not need to be removed on a float barge. I'm not sure about that though. I do know that it would be cheaper to pay for a haul out, dismast, stick on a flatbed, and then buy a bus ticket than it would be to transit in the canal. I'm hoping Don has a plan for that. We shall see. Keep in mind there is no requirement to sail every leg. So I could sail the first leg, skip two and three, ship hull to Australia and rejoin there.
4. Hence the quotes in my use of unsinkable. Cut a Boston whaler in half and the motor section will sink. I think the overall plan for safety is well thought out, and, if built to spec, this hull is no less safe than any other 19' (5.8m) hull.
cape man wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:11 am I have been watching with interest, and admire your insanity! Go baby, Go!
Thanks! I don't know if it is "insanity" or pure stupidity. Time will tell.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:27 pm
by terrulian
In regard to #2, I am very surprised that Jacques would design a ballasted sailboat that could not right itself. It is of course true of the V12 and any unballasted boat of his...but the AD and VG series? Really?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:03 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:27 pm In regard to #2, I am very surprised that Jacques would design a ballasted sailboat that could not right itself. It is of course true of the V12 and any unballasted boat of his...but the AD and VG series? Really?
you misread (or I misexplained) the vg/ad structure. the will NOT sit upside down even without ballast (as I understand it). The design crates a displacement that forces the hull to roll when the hull is inverted in the water (upside down). the hull is 'unstable in any position not "upright"' meaning that it will fight to get righted. They are VERY stable right side up.

It's an awkward statement. in the end we are in agreement that JM hulls are self righting.

I found the line from the ad16 study plans: her high profile cambered deck makes her very unstable upside down.
reference https://boatbuildercentral.com/StudyPla ... _STUDY.pdf

you will also see JM make a reference to that in my questions about SB18 as a weekend cruiser. He recommended the AD/VG series partly because of the increased safety in righting. I didn't look that up.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:05 pm
by terrulian
OK, sorry, my misunderstanding. All that makes sense. :D

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:31 am
by glossieblack
Happy birthday Jaysen. :D :D :D

At times I've wondered why you and cape man are at times almost identically cosmic, and go on fuzzy pilgrimages to the deep frozen north.

I hadn't realised you shared a birthday. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:10 am
by Jaysen
Thanks Glossie! If you notice, there were a few of us conceived in August that build boats. I've never really seen this many of us in one place. If Peter C is one of us it would explain the proliferation of empty bottles.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:02 am
by Netpackrat
Jaysen wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:10 am Thanks Glossie! If you notice, there were a few of us conceived in August that build boats. I've never really seen this many of us in one place. If Peter C is one of us it would explain the proliferation of empty bottles.
That's funny... I hadn't been going to say anything because a) I didn't want the attention and b) I never give websites my real birthday, but I may or may not have had one recently too. :roll:

Edit to add; oh yeah, and happy birthday. 8)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:06 am
by OrangeQuest
Happy birthday Jaysen!!!

I know that I have enjoyed, the few years that I have been on this forum, your willingness to share your wisdom, insights and really enjoyed the humor! Wishing you a wonderful day with many more years to come!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:28 am
by Jeff
Happy Birthday Jaysen!! We hope you have a great day!!! Jeff

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:12 am
by Jaysen
Thanks gents!

We really need to give JM and Jeff (and all of BBC) the credit for the friendships and fun we all get to have here. If it wasn't for the service of this forum, none of us would get to pick on Fuzz for living in "not iceland". I really do appreciate all the folks here even when we are on opposite sides of a discussion.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:40 pm
by Fuzz
Hey happy birthday. I too find it strange that you and CapeMan's birthdays are so close to mine. Maybe there is something to that zodiac stuff :doh: Here is hoping you have a great day.
I do wonder how it is you guys birthdays on in the main forum and mine is in the bilge :doh: Must be a envy thing, you guys are prejudiced against us from the Great Land. :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:24 pm
by Jaysen
Dave, I have to admit... my time up there with you guys was only surpassed by my vacation with the mrs. Y'all made me feel like a brother the instant we met at the "airport". Has to be a side effect of a BBV infection!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:27 pm
by Jaysen
Ok. Been lifting frames in my head for two days. Been having vid conferences with other NA builders. Been driving Don nuts with our collective questions. Here’s what I know for certain... this is going to need some dead trees!

Near as I can tell the 570 is a scaled up Setka A. This makes a problem with the mast support frame moving forward. With the much heavier rigging and larger keel there’s an additional frame the triples as a compression post and watertight bulkhead. This particular frame (D’ if you look at my recent post) has some confusing dimensions on the plans. Once we get some answers we will have the basic mill work needs nailed down.

Jeff has offered to help manage sourcing the mill work. That will give BBC the first real builders kit available in NA. A few folks are looking and I’m hoping we can bring them into the BBC family.

Next in our collective search if the steel work. 4’ solid wing with large flange that requires certification. I’m expecting that will cost a couple Quarts of EMC.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:58 am
by Netpackrat
Jaysen, you are probably already aware of this, but B&B Yachts has put an hour long video about their 580 CNC kits on their website. I only watched about the first 10 minutes but it is pretty cool. Even if you are building strictly from plans some of the design tweaks they have made should be interesting to you.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 4:01 am
by Fuzz
I watched the video. All I can say is I hope you have lots of free time, you are going to need it.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 am
by fallguy1000
Is there a head on that boat?

All I saw was a massive crash BH and a couple super tight looking berths. Just asking.

Isn't this the kind of rig you could trip to Bahama?

The wing....does that allow you to foil? So does this thing fly? Seems a bit heavy. Or is the wing the keel?

Yeah, not a sailor.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 6:11 am
by Netpackrat
Fuzz wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:01 am I watched the video. All I can say is I hope you have lots of free time, you are going to need it.
Yeah it looks excruciatingly complicated to assemble for what it is.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 7:54 am
by Jaysen
OK... Let's get some answers out there.

Yes, I know the video, not i have not watched all of it.
Netpackrat wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:58 am Even if you are building strictly from plans some of the design tweaks they have made should be interesting to you.
There are more than a few questions about the tweaks. On the surface they look to be approved, but I've asked questions about making similar tweaks prior to the B&B ticket being announced and was told no. So.... Not sure how this will play out.
Fuzz wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:01 am I watched the video. All I can say is I hope you have lots of free time, you are going to need it.
I've been through a few of the build progress vids for setka (same design +1 additional frame) and it isn't that difficult. There are just a lot of pieces to keep track of UNLESS you approach it one piece at a time. The hull and deck plating is the most complicated in my opinion as you are on your own for that. The most difficult is actually the chine "stringer" that is 70mm wide with a 30° bevel down it's length... a length of 22' or so. That will be fun.
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 am Is there a head on that boat?
chem toilet and/or 5gal bucket. Pretty standard on mini-mini. Think same solution for any sub 21' hull.
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 am All I saw was a massive crash BH and a couple super tight looking berths. Just asking.

Isn't this the kind of rig you could trip to Bahama?
That watertight bulk head doubles as the compression post for the mast. There is a double berth upfront as well, but the "race" version has the bunk removed to add storage for sails, spares and supplies. There is a crash box that gets filled with foam as well. Keep in mind for "racing" this is a one person hull. Club races may have more than one crew, but the big stuff... one solo idiot.

Actually, she drafts over 5' so the Bahamas would be tough (lots of 4' water). But she definitely in the "pocket cruiser" class. I have to clear 2K mile open water sailing (formally logged) before the 2024 race. I would make a trip to Nassau or PR and back to clear that requirement in one sail. Which means... yeah, we could do the Caribbean with her.
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:05 am The wing....does that allow you to foil? So does this thing fly? Seems a bit heavy. Or is the wing the keel?
Non-foiling. She's a "slow" displacement hull. The wing shape DOES allow for better pointing and provides a secondary lifting to increase speed in forward quarter to beam winds. The wing is the keel in this case. I believe the technical term should be keel but folks keep referring to it as a "wing and bulb" and a "keel and bulb". I call it "expensive steel and lead". :)

She is heavy on purpose. That bulb is right about 280lb of lead and steel 5' below the water line. That provides a LOT of righting momentum and stability. The overbuilt frames and plating make the boat a bit less "bounce off the wave" and are supposed to help smooth the ride (as well as make her stronger). The goal here is survive-ability WHEN things get sideways. It is inevitable that the boat will get knocked down, caught in big water, or maybe even a nasty storm. If the fecal matter gets bad, that hull needs to hold the body until rescue can be effected.

Basically, I'm not building a fast boat. That would require FallGuy1000 level of infusion/bagging and 2 commas in materials. For under $20k I'm hoping to field a competitive hull that can circumnavigate and finish in the top 10. Lucky for me everyone else is building the same hull :)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:08 am
by fallguy1000
Thanks for all that. Makes more sense now. I think you are luckier than you know. My wife would not be pleased with the accomodations.

Perhaps you can find a way to make it nice to hang out in the cockpit like a removable bimini.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:13 am
by Jaysen
Netpackrat wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:11 am
Fuzz wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:01 am I watched the video. All I can say is I hope you have lots of free time, you are going to need it.
Yeah it looks excruciatingly complicated to assemble for what it is.
1 week to make frames. There are 7 gusseted frames. 8hr to complete each, 12hr to cure to the point of removal from lofting table. 1 day per frame. That is with all cuts being made with hand tools.

1 day to assemble strong back. Same as with JM S&G boats "of size".

1 day to level frames on strong back

1wk (10hr/day) to install main stringers. All cut with hand tools. All scarfs started off hull. Short cut here... paying to have all milled to dimension including that 30° bevel. Hardest part is notching the frames to hold stringers.

1 week (10hr/day) for secondary stiffeners (lower hull and deck structure.

2 week (10hr day) hull plating and taping

1 week (10hr day) glassing

This is all assuming I'm working solo. I haven't looked past that point as, right this minute, there isn't much point given the impacts of covid on the cash flow. Keep in mind I'm the type that will not sand/fair the interior and only 80g most of the deck. She needs to be good under the water but can be dog fecal ugly every place else.

So yes, more complicated. Not unmanageable though.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:29 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:08 am Thanks for all that. Makes more sense now. I think you are luckier than you know. My wife would not be pleased with the accomodations.

Perhaps you can find a way to make it nice to hang out in the cockpit like a removable bimini.
I married a saint. Seriously. She not only puts up with my stuff, she supports and encourages it. She isn't thrilled with the idea of a bucket, but I will put a removable composting head or Chem in the hull when she's on board. Likely to put the life raft on aft/starboard alternative location that will allow me to use the companion way set to hide it (and the bucket).

There will be a dodger. Certainly a bimini for "not a race boat" use. Right now I just need to get it started.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 pm
by Netpackrat
Jaysen wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:29 am
fallguy1000 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:08 am Thanks for all that. Makes more sense now. I think you are luckier than you know. My wife would not be pleased with the accomodations.

Perhaps you can find a way to make it nice to hang out in the cockpit like a removable bimini.
I married a saint. Seriously. She not only puts up with my stuff, she supports and encourages it. She isn't thrilled with the idea of a bucket, but I will put a removable composting head or Chem in the hull when she's on board. Likely to put the life raft on aft/starboard alternative location that will allow me to use the companion way set to hide it (and the bucket).

There will be a dodger. Certainly a bimini for "not a race boat" use. Right now I just need to get it started.
I am thinking you will need two boats. The one will be your race boat, and the second a larger boat for family trips. Perhaps the second a rental.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:44 pm
by Jaysen
Netpackrat, you are correct. The end game has me turning into Fuzz...
1. Lil Bit -- A v12 sail/row fish getter for the marsh
2. TDB -- TDB sail/human powered fish getter for the big water (3-5 days offshore fishing)
3. Lil Bit More -- Class Globe 580 for daring God and the universe to end me in style (or just sail around the world)
4. TBD -- C27, P26, VG26 or similar for cruising the Caribbean and Gulf states with the boss lady
5. Chaise Marie (if I'm lucky) -- Shannon 37 cutter ketch for showing my wife the world one ocean at a time. I'd like to convert this to an electric drive with an on board diesel power plant with non-dino based options for power gen.

I'm already looking at building more but mostly at the request of others (hooking that FL14 up with a new owner started some conversations here).

Yes. I'm nuts. I don't believe I've ever suggested otherwise.

(edited to add the VG26 I really really want to build).

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:53 am
by Netpackrat
Jaysen wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:44 pm 5. Chaise Marie (if I'm lucky) -- Shannon 37 cutter ketch for showing my wife the world one ocean at a time. I'd like to convert this to an electric drive with an on board diesel power plant with non-dino based options for power gen.
I would not want to lobotomize my boat with an electric motor, but it seems to be all the rage these days.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:12 am
by Jaysen
It’s less about removing the diesel (note the generator) on that boat, and more about ensuring future compliance for long term stays in other countries. I’m not a tree hugger about motors, I just don’t like them on boats. Personal preference.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:28 pm
by Fuzz
Anything less than six boats means you need more :D

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:46 pm
by Jaysen
And I was sooooo close!

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:40 pm
by fallguy1000
Netpackrat wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:53 am
Jaysen wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:44 pm 5. Chaise Marie (if I'm lucky) -- Shannon 37 cutter ketch for showing my wife the world one ocean at a time. I'd like to convert this to an electric drive with an on board diesel power plant with non-dino based options for power gen.
I would not want to lobotomize my boat with an electric motor, but it seems to be all the rage these days.
Not to mess with the thread, but electric is really spendy.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:45 am
by Jaysen
fallguy1000 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 9:40 pm
Netpackrat wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:53 am
Jaysen wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:44 pm 5. Chaise Marie (if I'm lucky) -- Shannon 37 cutter ketch for showing my wife the world one ocean at a time. I'd like to convert this to an electric drive with an on board diesel power plant with non-dino based options for power gen.
I would not want to lobotomize my boat with an electric motor, but it seems to be all the rage these days.
Not to mess with the thread, but electric is really spendy.
So is being refused entry to a planned destination or required to leave early. EU regs are attempting to greatly limit the use of fossils as main propulsion for personal craft. You can have a fossil generator if you are over a certain size or a distance cruiser. Last read I was offered said this would happen in ES 2028 or so. If I was racing as a professional, my race boat would be considered commercial. But my cruiser would not. I expect most of the med will head this route 2030 if ES actually does it and it survives court challenge.

Honestly, it isn't as expensive as most folks think IF you take a more DIY approach (which many can not). I am in a unique position to leverage network relationships to help with reducing cost. :)

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:02 am
by terrulian
I've done some sailing with electric auxiliary boats. The club where I teach had two or three for awhile, but the tech wasn't really there yet. They take a little getting used to because, like the cars that are blowing ICE cars off the line, they have instant torque. What this means is that cavitation will be a problem at first while you're figuring it out...which takes, you know, five minutes. There is that range anxiety of course, but batteries are already very much improved since I had my experience. As are solar panels. You can do a degree charge your batteries underway, whereas there are no diesel sources during an ocean passage. One of the overlooked but major advantages is that the weight can be distributed all over the boat, and also doesn't vary as fuel is consumed, which would add some major flexibility to naval architects.
I don't know what "lobotomize" means in this context.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:19 am
by Jaysen
Keep in mind that the boat that will be hybrid will be
1. The house for a while.
2. Will still have fuel.
3. Will be a known "big water" type.

Much of the tech will be lightyears beyond where it is today by the time I ready for it. I've already been told that I have to comply to current bat/engine tech so none of the new stuff for storage/propulsion will be on the 580. I'm limited to generation and "subsystem" storage innovation for the 580. I understand the reasoning for this and fully support it.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:48 am
by fallguy1000
The electric engines for the Skoota would never deliver the range.

So, for a sailboat, things are totally different.

And, also, your boat is hull speed limited; so the electric motor power requirements are also less. But charging batteries for a raceboat is costly. The panels need homes and the batteries and equipment add weight versus a 2 gallon fuel jug at 12#. Even motor windings can be heavy.

But you are definitely more suited for electric than my operation. We have seen a few Wood's builders come online and talk electric, but most of them see the costs and run fast.

Is this torqueedo style or inboard? Isn't drag of a prop and issue in the latter?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:13 am
by Jaysen
The race boat requires outboard. I will be using petrol for the race boat for the reasons you state.

the electric discussion is for the long term "travel the world and grow old" boat. That's good 10+ years off at this point. By then there will be options.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:25 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 10:13 am The race boat requires outboard. I will be using petrol for the race boat for the reasons you state.

the electric discussion is for the long term "travel the world and grow old" boat. That's good 10+ years off at this point. By then there will be options.
When do you order parts and do you have the build site?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:45 am
by Jaysen
We are splitting build into 4 stages..
1. Frames: these will be built here in CHS in our "second bedroom"
2. Structure: This will be built at our home in Beaufort (transport frames to home)
3. Deck/Hull plating: this will be completed in Beaufort
4. Interior: this will be done in CHS on trailer

We are a bit of a delay on the build. I still have a job, but the pay took a hit. If I were to start the build today there is a high likelihood it would not be completed in a timely manner. We made the call to hold the build until we were certain that funding to completion (boat sailing but not race qualified) was 100%. We are funded to acquire the time sensitive components that are required for class compliance. I just don't think it's smart to start the build if I can't be sure I can afford to complete it.

For the record, we are viewing this boat as business, not pleasure. My goal really is to compete in the 2024 global so it is effectively a new career for me. As such we need to make sure we are setting up for success. That means treating this less like a hobby and more like a job. If I was building a VG26 for cruising, I'd already be making dust as there would be no deadline for completion.

Hope that makes sense.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:00 am
by terrulian
Is this torqueedo style or inboard? Isn't drag of a prop and issue in the latter?
On a sailboat this is always an issue no matter whether you have electric propulsion or not. I once banged my folding prop on a reef and while it was being repaired I could swear my fixed prop was cutting a knot off my speed. This was probably an exaggeration. You can also use feathering props but I didn't opt for that because of expense and because the folding prop is much simpler mechanically.

Of course, you power boat guys don't really care too much about drag when the engine isn't running, I suspect.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:13 am
by fallguy1000
terrulian wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 11:00 am
Is this torqueedo style or inboard? Isn't drag of a prop and issue in the latter?
On a sailboat this is always an issue no matter whether you have electric propulsion or not. I once banged my folding prop on a reef and while it was being repaired I could swear my fixed prop was cutting a knot off my speed. This was probably an exaggeration. You can also use feathering props but I didn't opt for that because of expense and because the folding prop is much simpler mechanically.

Of course, you power boat guys don't really care too much about drag when the engine isn't running, I suspect.
No, we do! If you run on one engine all day; the other reason to keep the other one down is tracking or windage issues. Otherwise, it is up to save pennies of fuel.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 11:16 am
by terrulian
Right, I hadn't considered dual screws. Duh.
You'd have to explain the tracking and windage to me.
So do you use folding props?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:26 pm
by Netpackrat
terrulian wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 9:02 am I don't know what "lobotomize" means in this context.
Mostly I meant that going electric for propulsion is building some more or less permanent severe compromise into the boat. There are a few sailors on YouTube who have gone electric... Most/all of them are completely gung ho about electric power, but if you actually watch the videos you'll see them have problems that wouldn't have occurred with diesel powerplants. At best you are paying a lot more for reduced range and performance, and at worst you are effectively engineless other than some minimal maneuvering capability for docking, etc. You can probably forget about things like canal transits or waterways where you have to motor a lot with no option to sail. A generator can make it better but then you are back to carrying fuel.

What seems to make more sense, is making the investment in lithium batteries for the house bank. With sufficient solar people have been able to do things like convert to electric stoves and get propane off their boats completely, and also reduce their frequency of needing to run their generator or auxiliary engine just to make power.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:22 pm
by Jaysen
I need to be a bit careful here as I’m touching some new tech.

The key thing as netpackrat mentioned is storage of energy. Current battery systems used density of material (read heavy metal) to store energy. There are new systems in development that store current tech power levels at a weight that is roughly 100:1. Meaning 1oz of new tech stores the same power as 100oz of current storage. And these new methods are dumb systems (unlike lipo which requires significant controls and cooling to the point they are as heavy as AGM).

By the time I’m ready to make the move to a non-fossil motivated hull, that tech will be widely available.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:44 pm
by terrulian
Remember that the Pardeys and Don Street were famous for engineless cruising, and many others have done it and are doing it. I'm not sure what if any electronics they used but they must at least have a radio and lights. We crossed the Atlantic without using our engine for propulsion as we had a compromised transmission/propshaft flange and since the repair would have required a machine shop, we didn't want to backtrack to address it. So we said, screw it, Columbus didn't have an engine. We only had one solar panel but with that ran lights, radar, HF radio, and the stereo all the way across, maybe charging once or twice with the engine. Adding a couple more panels, especially with more modern ones, along with a wind generator and a hydro generator and we could have done it easily.
Now, I'm not advocating what Street and the Pardeys did, and I don't think that's wise. But you really can do a lot without an engine in a sailboat, or with very minimal use, just for getting in and out of harbors. I'm doubtful you could do the canals without an engine but you might be able to arrange a tow at a hefty price.
So I don't look at electric cruising as ridiculous, especially 10 years from now with battery storage and solar/wind charging improvements.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 5:37 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 5:22 pm I need to be a bit careful here as I’m touching some new tech.

The key thing as netpackrat mentioned is storage of energy. Current battery systems used density of material (read heavy metal) to store energy. There are new systems in development that store current tech power levels at a weight that is roughly 100:1. Meaning 1oz of new tech stores the same power as 100oz of current storage. And these new methods are dumb systems (unlike lipo which requires significant controls and cooling to the point they are as heavy as AGM).

By the time I’m ready to make the move to a non-fossil motivated hull, that tech will be widely available.
What is it called so I can google it p&t.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 9:11 am
by Jaysen
NDA prevents me providing details beyond what I’ve already provided. For a current tech solution that improves on storage density and weight look at super capacitor systems.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 5:28 pm
by jacquesmm
I'm following this thread and the whole class story since it started. I love the concept but it is a little bit extreme. If I was younger, I may not feel that way :-), maybe it's just jealousy.

Unlike some other members of our forum like Terrulian or Evan, I did not sail all around the world but I crossed the Atlantic single handed and was also at the start of the very first Mini-Transat, in 1979 I think. I can share some experience about that. At the time, I was working with the Bureau Trismus, a yacht design office founded by my friend Patrick Van God. We had a boat in the race, skipped by Patrick and I prepared the boat with him, testing the boat and working full time on it for 3 weeks until the start in Penzance UK. Patrick had sailed two times around the world, passed Cape Horn etc. but he disappeared at sea in this race. Our boat was 22', that was the max. and Jaysen, 22' is small in a big ocean.
All the future ocean racing stars were at the start: Jean Luc Van den Heede, Alvare Mabirre, Kazimir Jaworksy etc.

For this boat, I would have preferred to see the designer use plywood as a core in epoxy but he picked ply on timber frames with epoxy seams a protective coat of glass. Good boats have been built that way but it is sad that the rule is not flexible about hull materials, I could have specified an alternate planking stronger, lighter and easier to build.
I am glad to see that the rules require the use of a sextant. Not only is it safe but it will eliminate many dreamers.
The 2,000 miles qualifier is also a good rule. From NC, a long tack to Bermuda and a smooth arc to the Carribean will give you 2,000 miles.
I don't get the requirement for an outboard. There must have been 30 boats at the start of the 1st Mini and nobody had an outboard. I had a sculling sweep. I transited the Panama Canal last year and I would not handle those locks with an outboard. Why don't they tow the boats on a trailer, shared cost for the trailer. Ask the organizer, the Canal is expensive.
Pulpit and pushpit are a very good requirement.
I have to check all that electric drive rule at the Class web site but I don't get it. BTW, there isn't much room for a solar panel on that deck. Towing a charging prop works on big boats but that would slow you down.
The boat looks well designed, sturdy, nice lines. I find the cockpit a little to large for the ocean: have very large scuppers and bring an air bag or two to fill the cockpit in bad weather. I may be a little extreme but that cockpit is larger than the one I had on my 40 footer.
I am glad that is not an extremely light boat, you will need the displacement.
Have you or anybody calculated the weight and volume of what you need to cross the Pacific? Food, water? I remember loading Patrick's boat for a Transat and there was no room left in that 22 footer. Even my 40' boat was crowded with all the beer cases needed for a Transat. All those stores have to be secured low in a way that will keep it from flying if the boat is rolled.
About rolling, don't skimp on the rigging. I would go oversize and have a spare emergency main: a smaller stiff flat one with a hollow leach no battens. You"ll use it in the windy parts of the race. I would use plastic sliders to attach the main to the spars: make them a little weak that way they break if you are rolled and you can save the sail. Have plenty of spares.
I like the sail plan very much: no roller furler, you just bring the sails up and down, very safe and it works well.
Running backstays, I love it, very seaworthy.
I would replace that thing on the companion way hatch with a plexy bubble: nice all around view.
The rules specify safety stuff but what's missing is a sea anchor and/or a drogue. I would have one.
If the rules allow you to customize your hull planking, don't go to low. As Fallguy explained, thickness is stiffness. Thicker ply is better than extra glass. It's different on my designs because I use ply as a core.
I"ll keep silent now but I will be reading your posts with interest.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm
by Jaysen
Jacques, your input is very welcome. Much of what you have said has been echoed by a number of folks in the public and private forums.

A few points I'll attempt to address:
Motor This is some insurance issue. I believe they are now saying oars/skulling oar is acceptable. The electric motor must be an outboard type not in inboard. They are limiting the on board batteries...

Hull ply This has been a bit of an issue as the designer is using "local to him" sizes that a lot of us just can't get. We asked about 12mm but were told "no". When we did get the OK for 12mm it was still with glass at which point the weight penalty became large enough to be problematic (class statement). As to ply as a core... there have been multiple "arguments" but the designer set in a specific design spec. I'm seeing the boat as a thing that will be repaired post use so ... I guess it's a cost of business to me? I would prefer your method if I'm being honest.

Supplies Keep in mind that there will be forced stops for resupply. FR to Canary, Canary to Caribbean (Kits?), Carribean to Panama, etc. There are 2 stops in post Panama IIRC. We are also free to stop any place we want. This is not a GGR style "no stop" event. If it was... I want a bigger boat! There will be all kinds of issues with storage. I'm waiting to get some progress on the hull, but from what the plans show there is a lot of storage from just above the water line down. I've got ideas on how to secure it all, but need to get something built to see if it will work. Here's the map of the tentative globe race... Image

Nav and qualification I have my concerns about being adequately competent with celestial nav. I'm planning to start working on that sooner than a boat build just to calm my own fears of getting lost out there. My 2kmi plan is CHS to Puerto Rico, down to Martinique then back. My thought is that I can pull the outside edge of the Gulf Stream on my way down and be within reach of help if needed. The two distances (down and back) allow me just under the mid-length average. If I can complete one of those legs with "more than half stores" still remaining I should be good for "longest runs x1.5" in supplies.

Sails There is a bit of heated debate about the sail requirements. There are questions about what we are allowed to use for dogs and even which spares we are allowed to take. I'm taking the "wait and see" approach to the argument. The basic view on the "requirements" is that we will be required to carry the same sails as mini 6.5 just scaled to size. I'm going to take what you've suggested and see how it flies.

Safety The listed gear is what is minimally required. I plan to carry drogues. Note the plural. I also plan to have spares in the resupply stores. While I really want to "win", I'm also a realist ... if you don't actually survive you lose in the worst possible way. I have every intention of surviving this event (if I participate). It is actually the cost, once safety gear is adequately included, that is slowing our build. There's no point in starting the build until I am CERTAIN I can field a boat that is safe to compete. I'm taking note of ALL your suggestions and adding them to the priorities in safety consideration.

Panama No idea the plan on this. Don is not commenting yet. Most of us are hoping for trucked transit where we can pair up in 40' trailers. I have NO interest in riding out the canal with a 4hp outboard screaming for mercy...

I think those are the high points. If this build doesn't pan out, then I'm that much closer to building a VG26. Either way, BBC will be my core supplier.

And I officially have my license for hull ID 04. It was never in question, but the formal papers are in hand!

JM, please comment regularly. I'd love to have your input along the way.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 7:13 pm
by terrulian
Great to have Jacques weigh in.
This boat is very, very small for ocean passages as he says. I, too, would be worried about space and weight for spares, provisions, and water. Even heavy cruising boats are rarely not sailing below their lines when provisioned and fueled; yet the food for one person for an ocean crossing is just as heavy no matter how big the boat is. Wrenches are just as heavy, as is water. Of course sails are a bit lighter. 1/2 gallon of water per day is probably going to be enough to survive...but the long crossings are going to take awhile in that boat even if you're not becalmed. I would carry 20 gal at the absolute minimum. The course takes you to very warm areas and you'll have little shelter...and no air conditioning not provided by nature!

I feel a bit squeamish disagreeing with Jacques on roller-furling, but that said, even the Golden Globe participants had different views on this. My opinion is based on a particularly strenuous passage of 1000 miles with a break at the 1/2-way point, all to windward. The wind never stayed steady for too long but was always above 20 and often freshened to 35. The energy it took to continually reef main and foresail 24 hours a day--even though we had roller furling on the jib--plus the motion of the boat, wore you down physically and mentally. And you had no alternative, because too little sail and you stalled, too much and you beat yourselves and the boat to death. The idea of having to change headsails 10 times a day is very daunting. I know some of the singlehanders in the GGR did it. But they are MUCH better men and women than I am.
And with regard to sails, Jacques' advice is well-founded. I would want to be prepared to be rolled in this little thing. Being hit by a 15-20 very steep wave is going to have you changing your underwear at best. It's not quite the Southern Ocean, but waves that size can definitely not be ruled out.

On celestial: You don't have to invest in a high quality sextant; Davis' Mark 15 is totally fine if you're not an expert. You can get one of their artificial horizons to practice with as you will probably not have enough time at sea. Tanya Aebi left on her solo circumnavigation as a teenager well before GPS in her little Contessa 26. She had a sextant aboard that she'd never used and a book to figure it out. Hmmm. She's one of my heroes for her guts alone.

Here's a link to a recent achievement by the unstoppable Webb Chiles, who last year completed his sixth round trip on a Moore 24, which is a small 24-footer with a tiny cabin. I tip my hat; but I'm a lubber for the duration. No more voyaging for me.
This is an event like the R2AK that, as a younger man, as Jacques mentioned, I certainly would have seen the attraction of.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/webb-chil ... avigation/

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 9:17 pm
by Netpackrat
jacquesmm wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 5:28 pm Unlike some other members of our forum like Terrulian or Evan, I did not sail all around the world but I crossed the Atlantic single handed and was also at the start of the very first Mini-Transat, in 1979 I think. I can share some experience about that. At the time, I was working with the Bureau Trismus, a yacht design office founded by my friend Patrick Van God. We had a boat in the race, skipped by Patrick and I prepared the boat with him, testing the boat and working full time on it for 3 weeks until the start in Penzance UK. Patrick had sailed two times around the world, passed Cape Horn etc. but he disappeared at sea in this race.
Jacques, do you know if his books have ever been translated into the English language?

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm
by jacquesmm
The books and movies by Patrick Van God were published in French, translated in Portuguese, Dutch, German and Spanish but not in English. BTW, his real name was Van Godsenhoven but he shortened it because only Dutch speaking Belgians could pronounce it.
He gave me the lines plan of his boat, the famous Trismus and I scaled it up a little bit. Later, our friend JP Brouns produced commercial plans and sold about 200 copies plus thousands of copies of variations in all sizes, many in aluminum.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 2:21 pm
by jacquesmm
One item at a time, celestial nav 1st.
Do as Terrulian proposes: get an inexpensive Davis and practice.
I had a very nice and expensive German sextant but bought a plastic Davis as a backup. I used the Davis all the time. On a small boat, taking sights can never be precise enough to take full advantage of a precision sextant, The Davis works very well.

Check this:
https://astrolabesailing.com/2016/10/31 ... -required/

I like HO249 tables and the Norris tables. HO249 give you the sun and stars locations (I never used the stars) and the Norris are math tables: trigonometry and log.
Most people can do all the math in 30 to 40 minutes but I had a trick: I used only 3 decimals. Given the lack of precision of a sight taken on a small boat, there is no need to drag 5 decimals along. That way, I could one line of sight in less than 20 minutes.
There is a version of the Norris tables that contains an almanac with useful info about ports of the world.
I know that some like to use a calculator but the idea is being able to do it without relying on batteries.

Another solution that worked for me was to use the Reed's Nautical Almanac. It has everything, tables and sights in one book but only with 3 decimals and only for one year.
I used only the Atlantic version, I don;t know much about the Pacific version.
In addition to the sextant tables, you need a clock. A cheap $ 10.00 quartz clock is fine as long as you can rest it with a radio.

Navigation is important. The winner of that 1st Mini Transat was a fast boat but the second was a sluggish boat with a junk sail.The routes were available after the race and of all of them, he had sailed the shortest route, 200 miles less than the next.
Get an understanding of ortho and loxodromy: the shortest line does not follow a constant bearing.

And understand that we all look at you as our proxy sailor. That may result in an overload of advice and opinions. Sorry if that's the case.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 3:18 pm
by Jaysen
Jacques, pile the info on!

I'm looking to get multiple plastic Davis units.
1 - Every day use
2 - Backup
1 - Available at supply stops
I can get 5 of them for the price of a new high end... 3 for the price of a used high end model. I don't see any point in getting anything else at this point. I'm looking at the Mark 25 as my standard model. I haven't even started to think about charts, tables and other instruments/tools yet. I've bookmarked that site and will publish it to my personal blog once we start that course (Mrs is actually going to learn all this with me!).

I'm going to grab a couple of time systems. I will be building a power management system that will have multiple RTC (Real Time Clocks) for redundancy. There will be a set function. That will be my main time source. I will also have the normal array of clocks including a manual wind time piece (that one will be a watch that will not leave my arm :)). No one ever complained about too many clocks!

Navigation is one of those things that I need to get right. While I'm confident in the boat design, i don't want to be pushing the limits of anything. And since these are "one design" hulls, beyond the basics of sailing it will be the course plotting that wins. And yes, I really want to be in the first finishers.

I'm happy to be "that guy" for you all. Hell, that's the tag line of the blog at this point. As to the advice and opinions, I welcome them all. It is better to think through advice/opinions that are wrong and KNOW that you have the right solution than it is to hope you haven't missed anything. i have a lot of learning to do and I know it. I'll be relying on input from you, Tony, Evan Capt UB and the rest of the BBC crowd.

Well... maybe not Fuzz... this boat won't have a motor. Just kidding Fuzz.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 4:21 pm
by Netpackrat
jacquesmm wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm The books and movies by Patrick Van God were published in French, translated in Portuguese, Dutch, German and Spanish but not in English. BTW, his real name was Van Godsenhoven but he shortened it because only Dutch speaking Belgians could pronounce it.
He gave me the lines plan of his boat, the famous Trismus and I scaled it up a little bit. Later, our friend JP Brouns produced commercial plans and sold about 200 copies plus thousands of copies of variations in all sizes, many in aluminum.
That's too bad, I would have liked to read those. One of my favorite channels on Youtube has a Brouns designed Trisalu 37 which they completely rebuilt. They are planning to sell her now since they want to build a catamaran, but it's a nice boat. If I still lived where I could keep a boat in the water I would probably try to buy it, since it's a near perfect boat for the coast of Alaska with its pilothouse and shallow draft. Here is a video from when they ran into one of their sister ships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bzNvlpCK7U

Instead of the twin centerboards, the Trisalu only had one plus two stern dagger boards. Apparently the daggerboard cases were prone to corrosion and both of those boats have had them welded over.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:00 pm
by jacquesmm
That Trisalu is almost a sistership of my old boat. I was in JP Brouns office almost everyday when he designed her.
The interior of my boat looked much larger first because she was 10% bigger but also because I had no framing thanks to foam sandwich, no aft cabin, one wide open space.
The dual aft CB's is an improvement because the single rear one required a exceedingly fat box keel to allow for the stern tube next to the CB trunk.
I also liked the Trisbal hard chine alu, especially the 45.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:59 pm
by terrulian
I'm assuming you won't have an HF radio but if you can have a shortwave radio you can get the time to check your clocks.
As to sight reduction, I agree with Jacques, as usual: using a calculator is not keeping the spirit of celestial navigation. He says he didn't use stars and that is pretty normal, as you have to find the star in the first place, then take a sight on that and maybe one more, and you only have as long as twilight lasts, and that's assuming a clear sky. I found it pretty tough just to identify a star when you can only see 1/4 of the sky in patches. You can take a running fix on the sun during the day, plus a noon sight, which should do. Are you supposed to keep a gps in a sealed box?

I'm afraid I'll be, as Jacques fears, an armchair advisor who may be tempted to offer too much input. :doh: :help:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:45 pm
by Jaysen
Most recent post... http://jaysenodell.com/globe-580/pine-or-oak

Starting to align a few loose ends on how to source things. I have access to a cabinet shop that can supply timber milled to the right dimensions. They are recommending white oak (proper white oak) as the cost for clear pine/cedar will be just as high. Running through the basic wood needs it looks like I'm going to be looking at the following for just the frames and stringers...

30x22 (1.25 x 7/8): 2700 (9')
40x22 (1.57 x 7/8): 1400 (5')
85x22 (3.35 x 7/8): 5200 (18')
50x22 (2.00 x 7/8): 26,860 (88')
70x22 (2.75 x 7/8): 1400 (5')
100x22 (3.93 x 7/8): 2160 (8')

On other fronts, the weight loss program is slow going. I'm working on strength training at the same time so the loss of fat is not showing up on the bottom line. I'm already seeing the need for smaller sized clothing so I'm on the right track.

That's pretty much it.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:29 pm
by terrulian
Those are the prices? Holey Moley.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:03 pm
by Jaysen
terrulian wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:29 pm Those are the prices? Holey Moley.
No. Sorry. Left to right:
Metric size
Imperial size
:
Linear in mm
Linear in feet

I’m looking at about $4/board-foot for pine or white oak.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:21 pm
by terrulian
Whew! I was wondering just how rare white oak could possibly be since the last time I bought some. 8O :lol:

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:31 pm
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:45 pm Most recent post... http://jaysenodell.com/globe-580/pine-or-oak

Starting to align a few loose ends on how to source things. I have access to a cabinet shop that can supply timber milled to the right dimensions. They are recommending white oak (proper white oak) as the cost for clear pine/cedar will be just as high. Running through the basic wood needs it looks like I'm going to be looking at the following for just the frames and stringers...

30x22 (1.25 x 7/8): 2700 (9')
40x22 (1.57 x 7/8): 1400 (5')
85x22 (3.35 x 7/8): 5200 (18')
50x22 (2.00 x 7/8): 26,860 (88')
70x22 (2.75 x 7/8): 1400 (5')
100x22 (3.93 x 7/8): 2160 (8')

On other fronts, the weight loss program is slow going. I'm working on strength training at the same time so the loss of fat is not showing up on the bottom line. I'm already seeing the need for smaller sized clothing so I'm on the right track.

That's pretty much it.
I would avoid using any more w.o. than needed. Stuff is really heavy. I can send you some. But most of mine is 3/4" thick. You'll have to pay the freight which may be a bit. W.O. tends to be cross grained. It is hard to mill perfectly. Most of my stuff is s3. I usually rerip the 4th side. Just let me know if you want any. 22 is not really a US measure. You will have to buy 5/4 which is basically going to be more money, yet. Then you'll have to mill to 7/8". I can check and see if I have any full inch..I mill everything to nearest best 1/8".

The pine story is similar.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:41 pm
by fallguy1000
Cedar clears are hard to come by.

Here are the lb/cuft weights

Western red cedar 23
Eastern white pine 25
Southern longleaf pine 41
White oak 47

As you can see white oak is twice the weight. White oak is rot resistant. If your boat keep can be adjusted for hull weights; then it probably doesn't matter. The cedar and wp are way nicer to machine.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:45 pm
by Jaysen
One of the driving forces here is availability. It is easy to find clear oaks. Not so much for pine. Certainly not at a reasonable price. That gets further complicated by the need to have 5/4 milled to non-standard US sizes. I’m hoping that the 40lbs estimated weight gain can be offset by a couple changes equipment/person. Hoping to meet with the supplier/mill in the next couple weeks and figure out if white oak is a viable option or not.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:26 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:45 pm One of the driving forces here is availability. It is easy to find clear oaks. Not so much for pine. Certainly not at a reasonable price. That gets further complicated by the need to have 5/4 milled to non-standard US sizes. I’m hoping that the 40lbs estimated weight gain can be offset by a couple changes equipment/person. Hoping to meet with the supplier/mill in the next couple weeks and figure out if white oak is a viable option or not.
5/4 wrc is common as a deck board

When I wanted clear cedar for my strip canoe or anything; I went to a Menards and spent the day going through their deck materials. The only bad bit was the edges are rounded, so you have to rip them off. And not cheap nowadays. I can see if I have any full inch stuff around, but not too likely. Does the designer realize 7/8 wo and 7/8 wrc are nowhere near the same strengths?

If we use modulus of elasticity, for example, wo is 1762000 and wrc is 1110000. This translates to way more stiffness per unit area.

Modulus of rupture is 14830 for wo and 7500 for wrc or nearly double.

If you used a 7/8" wrc board, a 3/4 wo board is still stiffer and less likely to break under load, so the idea the designer would not accomodate a smaller wo board that still weighs more than its weaker competitor seems silly.

Have you asked? The 3/4 equivalent is 19mm. I suppose the problem arises in painting the wood; they all become equals. Or for certifications, he may need to certify optional structures. Then some jerkwad would use 3/4 wrc and paint it all for a weight advantage.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:52 am
by Jaysen
The 22mm is the minimum width for the one design racing. The build specifies pine. So I have to use the same dimensions but can use “stronger” materials as I desire. I just can’t reduce dimensions.

It’s going to come down to availability and price. The more the mill needs to hand sort and reject boards the higher the price. I’m trying to walk a line between “one design” and “low weight” and “cost effective”.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:28 am
by fallguy1000
Jaysen wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:52 am The 22mm is the minimum width for the one design racing. The build specifies pine. So I have to use the same dimensions but can use “stronger” materials as I desire. I just can’t reduce dimensions.

It’s going to come down to availability and price. The more the mill needs to hand sort and reject boards the higher the price. I’m trying to walk a line between “one design” and “low weight” and “cost effective”.
You ought to walk through a lumberyard and see what wrc decking looks like. Just my opinion. The wo I have here seems even heavier than the citation I gave. It and walnut are very heavy.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:29 am
by Jaysen
My neighbor (build site) is assisting with his resources in wholesale lumber. Once we get a couple quotes and compare actual weights I’ll report back.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:18 am
by pee wee
I was at a (state?) park on the Florida panhandle near Pensacola that had an interactive display on ship building wood. They had three one-foot cubes of wood tied with rope up to pulley and down to a hand rail so visitors could lift each one. One was yellow pine, one white oak, and one live oak. As expected, the oak was much heavier than the pine, but I was shocked at how much heavier the live oak was compared to the white oak- dense stuff.

Very interesting, and nothing like hefting a piece for yourself to drive home the differences. I don't know which would be better for your build, just that there is a big difference between them (and don't use live oak!). :D

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:45 am
by Netpackrat
I seem to recall that oak doesn't take epoxy very well.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:13 am
by terrulian
Thanks for that...I'll have to look into it as I recently took an axe to a branch from a fallen live oak which I am ripping into flitches which I'll let dry. It's going to be a bunch of small pieces, only enough to make a box, but knowing me I may have used epoxy instead of wood glue.
Unlike Jaysen, I'm not too concerned with the box sinking.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:48 am
by pee wee
Netpackrat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:45 am I seem to recall that oak doesn't take epoxy very well.
I'm not sure that's true, but it has been discussed before. I recall looking that up and seeing some sources refuting the claim.

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:54 pm
by pee wee
It looks like there are potential issues, but proper prep plays a part. It looks like the oils in the wood are a factor; here's a discussion on epoxy/white oak:

https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/so ... ighty-oak/

Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan -- on indefinite pause :(

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:19 pm
by mhd
Jaysen,

I somehow hadn't read this thread previously. The information in here is incredibly useful - including Jacques poignant stories, comments and recommendations.

Obviously you thought about this in huge detail. While I'm not interested in racing, there was a reason we chose to build the VG23. Sailing a passage (or more) is the dream at the end of the day. I'd be very grateful if you have any advice with this in mind, as we continue with the build.

Cheers,

Mick