LB26

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les2021
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Re: LB26

Post by les2021 »

Evening Guys

Bit late I know.... cheers Fuzz / Dan

I have continued trying to tidy up the cabin as it will not be long before it will be like an oven in the cabin, so built the hatches, bow thruster forward, battery locker starboard for windlass and thruster, general locker port, all painted and ready. Just need to fit hinges and catches.

Going to spend one more week inside before I scare the pants of myself by finishing the hull and painting !!! So Dan I know.... we went through all of this over a year ago, BUT the time has come to brave it, so questions to follow. I have researched and watched more youtube than I care to think about.

A question though guys, lining the cabin walls and ceilings, should I insulate ? if so what with and what thickness ?

I will post a sketch soon of my proposed paint scheme, please be honest and say if it is too advanced for me.

Cheers

Les
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les2021
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Re: LB26

Post by les2021 »

Not sure if the photos downloaded...
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Jaysen
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Re: LB26

Post by Jaysen »

Ok. I’ve had to cut into a boat of three lately and here’s my take on insulation. It’s sucks donkey when you have to get back into any space. And you will need to get into all the spaces.

That said insulated cabins are quiet and much more comfortable if you have environmental controls in the cabin. There are real reasons to want insulation. How would jaysen make his own life easier?

I would use insulation attached to the liner and make the liner removable in sections. Sections that can’t have removable liner would get removable, encapsulated insulation. The idea being that you can pull a section out, reach in and remove the insulation not attached to the removed panels.

Hope that makes sense.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

fallguy1000
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Re: LB26

Post by fallguy1000 »

Primary envelope heat gain and heat loss is through ceilings, well roofs. In all but the mildest climate, insulating a cabin roof is a must.

This is typically done by making crossbeams, a roof deck on top, and insulation the thickness or just under the beams, and then a removable headliner. The removable part is handy for electrical matters.

Marine foam has a small R value; enough to mitigate some condensation and to make messing with the walls low value. Obviously, paint color matters. A dark blue boat may be sexy as hell, but so hot inside ...

The forces that create condensation are temperature differences. I had heavy condensation inside the Skoota running my diesel heating system on some 32F nights in October. Otherwise, nearly none.

In your locale, the only time you may expect condensation is cold seas and hot days below the waterline. Or if you have heat on in winter.

So, if I were building your boat, I'd insulate the rooftop so that the scorching Med sun doesn't cook you in summer and/or if you add some a/c; it isn't taxed too much. Otherwise, I'd not do much more for now.
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les2021
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Re: LB26

Post by les2021 »

Cheers Jaysen / Dan

Quick question.... The two pack Perfection range by International over here has a very small colour range.

What are the thoughts on two pack polyurethane versus one pack, is there a marked difference in application and durability ?

Cheers

Les

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Jaysen
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Re: LB26

Post by Jaysen »

Two part seems to last longer based on what I’ve seen on local boats. Doesn’t seem to matter that manufacturer.

More important is the surface prep.
1. Clean clean clean. Make sure there is no dust and not residue from your cleaners.
2. Do not “over sand”. Make sure you read the application instructions and follow the recommended sanding grits for surface prep.
3. Did I mean ruin clean?

Good luck.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

fallguy1000
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Re: LB26

Post by fallguy1000 »

I dunno y, but I have to first delete my prior post to make a new comment.

Two part paints are going to last about 5 times longer in light colors. There are a few tricks to using them.

They are a bit finicky to apply. You really don't want to use them below waterlines and some are not as immersion friendly as others.

These paints apply very thinly, and you must follow a strict wet edge rule, and so you cannot have the sun beating on them.

What is a wet edge rule? The new paint you roll on is not allowed to touch any part dried area. So, you can only paint just painted areas. This is important for starts and stops. On my boat, I taped off a few areas and then did my best to just touch the slightly dry paint all the way around in those areas, but al the curves and changes on my boat made it super difficult to paint.

And the other thing is these paints require perfect substrates and perfectly cleaned processes.

For about 8 months, I struggled with fisheyes. I finally discovered the culprit was throw away paint liners where silicone is applied as a mold release for them to make them.

So, you must use food grade aluminum foil for paint tray liners.

I followed a pretty strict cleaning regimen. First wash the hull with soap and warm water. Clean with recommended cleaner. Next, apply epoxy primer, one coat. Next, touch ups or any added fairing, then sand the entire primer coat, clean with recommended cleaner and three coats of primer within window for recoats.

Then sand the primer coat with 180 grit or as per mfg The next step is up to you, but you can primer again and sand agin.
Then clean it a lot. Get rid of all the dirt in the environment, blow it out, vac it out. Wash the boat with solvent per manufacturer of the topcoat. Wear a respirator. Walk away. Next day, swamp the floors with a mop as much water as possible, avoid slopping the boat and carry an cotton rag if you slop it. After the floors are swamped, tack off the area to be finished with a tack rag. Based on your prior wash, the tack rag should not be paint dirty; just dusts. If paint dirty, wash it again. Then tack after dry. Never tack a just solvent washed boat as the tack will loss shellac to the boat!

Make sure all of your paint tools are 150% free from any contaminant. For example, never use an old dirty wood stick to mix paint. It must be cleaned with solvents first. The dirt will get into the paint and when it hits the surface; it will show or fisheye. After you paint the boat; exit the area.

Dry time of the paint is critical. If the paint dries to fast, say it is 88F in Greece the day u want to paint; it will fail. The way to deal with this is a paint retarder for that paint. If it is 60F, you may need the opposite, but a retarder can cause problems because if the paint is wet too long; more dust/dirt can enter the finish.

Much depends on the paint rules for recoating, but recoating say 2--3 coats is typical. Then you sand the finish (or accept it), with the highest grit allowed (320-400?), and then you clean it all like a madman again, swamp the floor again, tack it off, and then a final coat. Be aware that two part paints are super hard, I got about 2-4 square feet per sheet of sandpaper before they started to cut poorly. So, myboat cost a fortune to sand! Papers all over the floor when done.

I found tipping did not work as well as thinning the paint a tad and only rolling. My first hull was tipped and has tipping lines; the second one has a wee bit of orange peel in the final finish; an acceptable tradeoff for the amount of work.

Finding rollers for you will be a pain. Buy a whole case of some good ones. Anything bigger than 6" is too big for your boat. Anything smaller than 4" will be annoying.

So, super low nap 4-7" rollers. 4" will be hard to avoid lines, so 6" is my advice. You should test the 7" and see if it walks bad on any high curve areas like the bow.

I'd buy these for the polyurethane work.

Epoxy paint rollers are the quantums.

https://www.boatbuildercentral.com/prod ... -covers-7/
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Jaysen
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Re: LB26

Post by Jaysen »

On the tray liners… don’t use them. The trays are part of the cost. I do extend life by pouting out excess, hanging them in a spot to dry, then reusing them after cure time. Basically two trays to run 2+ coats of paint. I’m also moving onto spraying because. Just because.

What FG says about contamination is critical. My personal rules:
1. Remove all “spirits” and “oil” cleaners from your kit. The I love you cleaners i use are acetone and MEK. I prefer MEK but that stuff …
2. Get rid of all “wood” or other absorbable material based tooling. Only metal or plastics I know will survive my cleaners (acetone MEK). FG hinted at a 5gal bucket of cleaner. I have 3@2.5g. One for dipping, two for soaking. I pour cleaner through sprayers too. (Gel/esters)
3. Get a REPAIRABLE paint. There’s a difference. You will have contamination and being able to remove the bad spots and just repaint that area with the reassurance that the paint is good… with the small fortune the paint will cost.

Lil Bit has EMC fight lady yellow and oyster white. Rolled. Contaminated. Crappy prep. Looked great day one. Looks great now. Only issues are prep related. Very little maintenance on the paint. My feeble brain says that was 7 years ago. I refuse to use any paint that isn’t EMC. Turn away jobs if folks won’t pay for it. Other paints are good, but I know I can make EMC work.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

les2021
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Re: LB26

Post by les2021 »

Afternoon All

As always thanks Dan / Jaysen

So I have studied the replies and I am getting the feeling I need to clean, clean oh and clean :lol:

I want to try and stick to the two part Perfection Range as it seems really good and from what I have learnt the application seems good. So I would like to do something like the attached sketch using white and platinum, not exactly as the sketch but similar. NOW is that too advanced for a dip stick like me ? If not how do you achieve the joint between the two colours ? obviously I can tape for the first colour but what is the next procedure to join the second colour ???
Dan your point about the wet edge problem, where do I start on the LB26 ??? My thoughts would be start at a transom corner which has a slight round and then work up around the bow and back to the transom... BUT this will meet at the dry corner !!! :help:

Any advice as usual will be appreciated.

Cheers

Les
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fallguy1000
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Re: LB26

Post by fallguy1000 »

You need antifouling for a moored boat to 3" above dwl.

Antifouling is always per local recommendations, so find out from the marina or mooring field.

White does not existing in antifoul. Copper colors tone all antifouling.

To do 2 colors is pretty hard, but not impossible. The way I would do it is to paint the middle color first up and down past the 3" mark above dwl and above the planned line. Then you double tape on good paint with a safe release the final line for the platinum. Then you sand right to the tape lines for the sand down to the middle color on your swoosh with 320. Then remove the top layer of tape which is sacrificial for sanding. Clean and you are ready to paint to just over the tape. Remove the tape immediately after applying the paint to each side. The tape you use must be non-bleeding, many masking tapes are not.

I don't really like the paint plan you propose. The bottom paint should be decided first and like I said, there is no white.

My boat paint colors suck for this very reason. My bottom paint white is cream and the boat is boring. The cream is called white, but copper paint..

That scum line is my negative trim issue.

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My boat build is here -------->

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