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I have never sailed before and it is amazing. Light winds 2-5ish sometimes felt like none, but great for a first evening of learning. Only issues were the rudders didn't go down all the way and steering was stiff. I'll need to modify both aspects of that system, buy they were still functional.

My old roommate from before I got married was in town, and he had taken some lessons, so I wasn't completely unsupervised....... By the end of the night him and I, 3 of our boys and my wife had all been around the bay a few times. Most human body weight we had in at one time was around 550lbs.

First Landon and his friend took it on its 'maiden voyage' and paddled it out and back to check stability.... it is very stable, I stood on one outrigger and tried to get it rocking and could still only get it about 2/3rds submerged. After they got it wet, then my old roommate and I took it out and tried dropping the rudders and leeboard and hoisted the sail. The leeboard is VERY buoyant, and I do not think a bungee will work for holding it down, so good thing they hadn't come yet, I will need to put a cushion pad under the rear beam because it bangs up pretty good when releasing it. Rudders will probably need to be tied down and not bungee for the same reason.

It is kind of funny most of the pictures show us with paddles, but that's just because we were close to the cameras... once started we only needed a couple strokes when tacking though I was able to get around a couple times on momentum, I am guessing with stronger wind and more momentum and lots of practice it won't be an issue at all.

Next up, more practice, then out onto the main lake.
Pictures of note are the curious other 'multihulls' circling us, and the amazing rainbow to finish the evening with.

Build thread here,
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=65490

A rainbow no less!

That is PERFECT Narfi!!!! Congratulations!!! Jeff

Jeff wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:03 pm That is PERFECT Narfi!!!! Congratulations!!! Jeff

cape man wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:41 am A rainbow no less!

thanks

Here is a short video clip of it in action,
https://youtu.be/eaU9IU66Upo

Looks like you guys are moving quite fast!!! Jeff

Nice boat! It does look like you are moving a long pretty good!

NIIIIICE!!!!

For tacking, I find a jib helps. A lot. As in mainsail only I won't even try. Better to gybe and deal with a concussion than get fubar'd in a stalled tack. That said, speed is what gets it for mainsail only. And speed needs wind. you'll probably be fine with the main and tacks with a bit more wind.

How long until you put skates on that thing for winter sailing?

Jaysen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:43 pm

How long until you put skates on that thing for winter sailing?

Well..... the lake isn't usually frozen enough to be safe till January.... but the bay could be doable earlier winter........ Haven't finalized plans on how much will be swapped back and forth, likely just the mast and boom, but not sure yet. (and I am supposed to have been building an airplane....)

That was one heck of a project! Glad to see how well it turned out. I think some teething problems are to be expected on a project like this. So how does Landon like what you did to his boat? And why do I think this learning to sail might have something to do with other long term plans

He’s married. That’s why!

If I recall correctly, there was an open discussion regarding sailing a cat as part of the retirement plan for Mrs Narfi.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:55 pm That was one heck of a project! Glad to see how well it turned out. I think some teething problems are to be expected on a project like this. So how does Landon like what you did to his boat? And why do I think this learning to sail might have something to do with other long term plans

he likes it, means less paddling

I am not very good at chess, but in life I try to plan several moves ahead, so you are right this was the first move. Wife may have a better/different route to the same endgame, so we will see how the game plays out over the next few years

Considering the price of fuel, sails are cheap. That’s how I’m winning the “sailboats are better” argument here.

Narfi, huge congrats on the launch, what a great project! Design/build/launch/learn, just incredible.

As far as tacking goes, you'll figure out how the boat likes to tack pretty quickly. On jibing, you should definitely practice some controlled jibes(sheet the main to the centerline as you jibe around etc, you can look it up), it's an good skill for safety of the crew and the boat.

Interested to see/hear what the upwind performance is like. Will she point?

Congrats again, nicely done!

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:47 am

Interested to see/hear what the upwind performance is like. Will she point?

Congrats again, nicely done!

Thanks!

I do not know angles or anything, but the wind was coming directly off the ramp we launched from, and our routine for night one was; do a few laps around the bay and then back to the ramp and change 'crew' so all the boys got a chance, we did that several times and never any issue coming back into the ramp at an angle then turning directly into it right at the end and coming in on momentum.

The rudder steering is stiff, but I am very happy with how smooth the traveler system turned out, super easy as well and the ratio on the sheets is high enough that it takes no effort to hold it tight either. For tacking, we would center the traveler tighten the sheets start the turn, if needed I would give a stroke or two of the paddle, then once past center loosen the sheets and manually push the boom over by hand, usually that was good enough, sometimes I would need to do another stroke or two of the paddle because the wind was so light. I figured I would get comfortable with that before playing with jibing much, but I think it should be fairly safe with the traveler and sheet system I have as long as I stay aware.

To secure my rudders down, I found a super slick method was already in place...... I had set up the retract cable which worked well, by sliding the cable each side of the rudder down under the lower screws on the case for pulling it down, it uses the same cable to pull down instead of up, no rerouting needed! They will float so no need to pull them up in the water, just for securing them up on the trailer, so it is an easy switch at the beach launching and trailering to slip the cables over the screws to transform it from up to down and back.

If you were all getting back to the ramp, from whence the wind was coming, then you're all doing a pretty damn good job! Most stories you hear about first-time sailing involves a downwind launch and an upwind tow by a motorboat, so bravo!

I may need a photo to fully understand the rudder mechanism but glad to hear it's going to work without a complete re-design, that's always welcome news.

https://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Basics-B ... 1585748072

I know there are a ton of books out there but this one really helped me: does a great job on the fundamentals.

Turn on your gps next time you're out and post a screenshot of the tracks, that will tell a good part of the story.

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:32 am

Turn on your gps next time you're out and post a screenshot of the tracks, that will tell a good part of the story.

Is there a good android app for that? as well as maybe showing speed?

narfi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:53 am

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:32 am

Turn on your gps next time you're out and post a screenshot of the tracks, that will tell a good part of the story.

Is there a good android app for that? as well as maybe showing speed?

I use BoatingHD from navionics, no idea what maps may be available for the neck of your woods but worth a try.

Edit: maps are not even essential for tracks/speed.

Not a great picture but shows the geometry.

The darker line is the bungee that was too weak and not enough length to build spring tension......

You can barely see the retract cable to the front but it is tyed around the eye bolt on the leading edge of the rudder case (forward red dot) back through the hole at top of rudder (top red dot) and then forward through the eye bolt for a 2:1 leverage.

I can pull slack in the retract cable each side of the hole (top red dot) and wrap it around the screws/bolts sticking out about 1.5" lower on the case (lowest red dot) for pulling the rudder down instead of up.

Make sense or need a clearer picture tonight?

narfi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:13 pm Screenshot_20210812-080523_Gallery.jpg

Not a great picture but shows the geometry.

The darker line is the bungee that was too weak and not enough length to build spring tension......

You can barely see the retract cable to the front but it is tyed around the eye bolt on the leading edge of the rudder case (forward red dot) back through the hole at top of rudder (top red dot) and then forward through the eye bolt for a 2:1 leverage.

I can pull slack in the retract cable each side of the hole (top red dot) and wrap it around the screws/bolts sticking out about 1.5" lower on the case (lowest red dot) for pulling the rudder down instead of up.

Make sense or need a clearer picture tonight?

I think get it, that is about what I was picturing, I've had kayaks with similar skeg geometry, nice! Can it still kick-up when in the pulled-down state? If the CB can't kick up it may not matter.


What lake are you on? I'm looking at BoatingHD now.

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:17 pm BoatingHD

So I think that app requires an internet connection to work well...... First time I tried using it, it wouldn't even open at the ramp. Second time trying was yesterday, I started it at home and clicked through the x days trial loading screen, then stuck it in my pocket and headed down and launched it. Forgot to "start" the track till we did a lap or two around the bay, but then pulled it out and clicked start. It seems to do fine till we get out of the bay and around the island, beyond even our shoddy cell reception(data works like a grossly crippled dial up connection here) and even though we went all the way around the island just showed a straight run back through it to the ramp.....

The tightened forestay and shrouds did great on the open lake, no more concern with movement on the mast, but even though the boat was quite stable, wife didn't like the waves splashing over the sides. Landon loved it though.....

Steering modifications were a huge success. Super easy and responsive now, so much better than the cable system.

If you download the map ahead of time you SHOULD be able to use GPS/tracks etc without an internet connection, but I'll play with this on my end next time out and see what I get.

On the far side of the island, it APPEARS you are tacking at ~90 degrees, which is amazing! This is assuming/inferring that the wind was from westish, maybe like 250?, let me know if that jives. Also assumes that north is up on the map.

"wife didn't like the waves splashing over the sides." Had a similar experience this weekend, wife AND the dog sternly objecting to spray over the rails.

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:13 pm "wife didn't like the waves splashing over the sides." Had a similar experience this weekend, wife AND the dog sternly objecting to spray over the rails.

Correct answers to this are NOT
1. It drier than me tossing you over.
2. Beats swimming.
3. Let me build a bigger boat.
4. Did you not watch the race videos? How do you expect to compete in the Vendee if this is bothering you?

I’m sure there is more but I’m generally unconscious before I can try new ones.

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:13 pm
On the far side of the island, it APPEARS you are tacking at ~90 degrees, which is amazing! This is assuming/inferring that the wind was from westish, maybe like 250?, let me know if that jives. Also assumes that north is up on the map.

We went counter clockwise around the island.

Jaysen wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:37 pm Correct answers to this are NOT

3. Let me build a bigger boat.

That has already been established as an acceptable answer
Actually, she would prefer, let me stop building an airplane and build a bigger boat sooner.
Perhaps even more acceptable would be, let's buy a bigger boat now.... (screw finances, logistics, stage of life, etc....) (ok maybe that's me projecting a bit there....)

narfi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:39 pm

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:13 pm
On the far side of the island, it APPEARS you are tacking at ~90 degrees, which is amazing! This is assuming/inferring that the wind was from westish, maybe like 250?, let me know if that jives. Also assumes that north is up on the map.

Screenshot_20210816-071743_Boating.jpg

We went counter clockwise around the island.

Yeah, that all jives! So you must have been close-hauled on the other side of that island, and that's probably where you got the splashing into the boat, beating into the wind/waves in probably 8kts of apparent wind? Pretty impressive, if I'm extrapolating all that correctly.

Jaysen wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:37 pm

VT_Jeff wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:13 pm "wife didn't like the waves splashing over the sides." Had a similar experience this weekend, wife AND the dog sternly objecting to spray over the rails.

Correct answers to this are NOT
1. It drier than me tossing you over.
2. Beats swimming.
3. Let me build a bigger boat.
4. Did you not watch the race videos? How do you expect to compete in the Vendee if this is bothering you?

I’m sure there is more but I’m generally unconscious before I can try new ones.

If you can get through that list without bodily harm you're lucky!

We were on the FS14LS in some chop, took a few over the bow and got stuff wet, so now I'm on the hook to add some dry sweatshirt storage under the guest set. Oh well.......

So Landon and I went around the island again..... It was a little windier and a lot rougher.... probably 2-3ft waves white capping 8-10ft apart on the lake.

The boat did well, we felt very stable the entire time, but it was pretty wet, was a bit of intermittent bailing going on while on the main lake

It was too much force for the leeboard case though, and we broke it on the second tack on the other side of the island, we pulled up the board and going upwind was a lot more work.....

For the most part we rode the waves up and down with the bows cutting through them, but it wasn't uncommon to get in a resonance with them either and rock up one and down the next till we got out of resonance again and went back to going through. (is this what they call hobby horsing?)

It seemed harder to tack with the bigger waves, I think we had more trouble maintaining momentum, so had to paddle quite a bit around each turn.

All in all, lots of fun and Landon had a huge grin the entire ride. He is enjoying it much more than the power boat, which seems counterintuitive to both me and my wife.
You can compare those tacking angles to the other day when the wind was calmer, the waves were gentler, and we had the leeboard functioning, it all adds up to a pretty big difference.....(ignoring the second half where the GPS flaked out)

If you are having less tack angle (pointing) in stronger wind, even with larger waves, it is most likely due to LOE on the sail being "wrong" location. Normally you point BETTER in higher winds. The cracked trunk would suggest that you were overpowered a bit. I'm surprised that the trunk broke.

Was the steering super stiff or did you feel a pulling tiller?

Consider a splash cover like on a kayak. Tarp with a couple of torso holes in it. That would help with the water a bit. not sure how big to make it to allow enough freedom of movement for sailing.

That pointing bothers me.

Here is what 10minuts of me thinking about how to explain why some of us like sailing over powerboating ended. Maybe it Landon feels this way too.

There is something magical about moving around on the wind. It's also a very "active" thing. You are forced to physically move to adjust for waves, wind (heel) and to adjust the sails. Then you have the mental side of thinking ahead to what changes next, reading the water surface for gusts or depth changes. Everyone on board does this, not jsut the captain. Sailing is a glorious dance between the sailor, the boat, the sea, and the wind. It is a 4 part harmony for all 5 senses, not just the ears. It's not something everyone understands. I'm just glad he has a family that is letting him experience it. Not all children are as lucky.

Jaysen wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:52 am If you are having less tack angle (pointing) in stronger wind, even with larger waves.........

Was the steering super stiff or did you feel a pulling tiller?


That pointing bothers me.

The steering is super smooth now, it does want to turn into the wind a little which I knew would be the case with the board all the way down/forward, the plan is/was to find the right angle for it to be in balance with the sail, but have just had it all the way down for these first goes at it.

I think the biggest issue with the pointing was that I pulled the board up when the case broke, the waves interrupting momentum being secondary...... (those were my thoughts anyway)

Jaysen wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:52 am
Consider a splash cover like on a kayak. Tarp with a couple of torso holes in it. That would help with the water a bit. not sure how big to make it to allow enough freedom of movement for sailing.

Good idea, I will need to figure out a clean way of doing that, I was pretty cold by the time we got home

narfi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:49 pm it does want to turn into the wind a little which I knew would be the case with the board all the way down/forward, the plan is/was to find the right angle for it to be in balance with the sail, but have just had it all the way down for these first goes at it.

I think the biggest issue with the pointing was that I pulled the board up when the case broke, the waves interrupting momentum being secondary...... (those were my thoughts anyway)

That turn into the wind it "weather helm". If the turn is out downwind it is "lee helm". Weather helm is caused by the sail Center Of Effort (where the sail pushes) being too far forward of the Center Of Resistance of the centerboard/daggerboard/leeboard/keel. the CoE on the sail is measured by taking a line that evenly bisects a sail edge to the opposing corner. If you are planning to run a jib, you calculate the center of effort, for each sail, then measure the distance between them The combined COE is halfway between the STRAIGHT LINE connecting the COE. The COR should be at the same location as the COE, just below the boat. Calculating COR is a lot more complicated though as it has to account for weights and hull resistance for multihulls.

All that to say
1. with a jib on you should see the weather helm reduced.
2. letting out a bit of sheet actually moves the LOE forward while spilling some air reducing weather helm.

Rarely do you need a board all the way down. Typically 50% is enough. Lil Bit only needs her's more than 1/4 down if the wind is 15 and it's dead on the beam. Even straight in she seems to prefer only a little bit of DB. Remember that each of your hulls is providing some resistance as well. The big things to look for to determine "MORE BOARD"
1. Are you sliding to lee? if yes add a bit
2. If you add a bit do you get a few more points to windward? if yes then add a bit
3. if you add a bit do you go slower? if no, add a bit

While there is a lot of science to sailing, it's most fun when you approach it like art. You try something and see how it works. If you didn't die then it wasn't the worst possible outcome. If you went faster or had better control, you've added to your bag of useful knowledge. If you went slower or the boat exploded (metaphorically) then you have even more info in your bag of useful knowledge (you'd be surprised how many times you need to apply the breaks without changing heading... much harder with no throttle).

I think you can get a few more points out of her if she isn't sliding. To improve tack when you are pointing high, bear off a few degrees to pick up speed then go super hard on the helm to push the nose over hard. You may not need that with a jib though.

You did plan a jib, right?

I concur with all of jaysens points: less board depth, deck cover for splash, add a jib. My opinion is that with such a light boat, whitecap waves will def slow you down upwind. Try moving some weight forward to reduce seesawing, reduce launching.

Sucks about the case but I suspect you'll have that sorted out in no time.

Awesome that Landon is so stoked on it, that could be the start of a great hobby/obsession!