Page 1 of 1

VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:28 pm
by mhd
Well, here goes! We just measured the garage for one final check that the boat can actually fit in there, and will also squeeze out the door. Tight on both height and width, but I've convinced myself it will fit, including basket and wheels, and that it can be done.

Requiremetns: 2 person crew, mostly cruising around US/Canada/Mexico coast. Longer trips to Caribbean/Central America. Extended offshore periods if desired.

First tasks:

Yesterday I traced the large-sheet plans onto paper for making an initial paper model. Doing this really helped on our previous build. I'll then modify the initial model based on some changes I'm considering and will make sure I'm happy with any such changes - nothing too drastic - the design is well-proven already. Next, I'll make a rigid scale model out of balsa wood to the final planned design.

Image

Until spring 2023 I'll sadly still have to work so will be completing some of the smaller self-contained tasks that can be done prior to the hull build. Brian, a VG23 builder in the UK, advised doing as much of the smaller stuff as possible first, since once the hull is built working space is vastly reduced. Makes a lot of sense. So the plan will be to construct chainplates, ruddder, keel, centreboard etc., prior to getting started on the hull.

Let's see how it goes. Based on the previous build, I think it is possible to be completely finished and in the water in under two years - sailing is the goal, rather than building. But of course, I will no doubt smile ruefully to myself when I re-read this post in the future...

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:38 pm
by mhd
First job. I cut the keel bottom and side panels from the last piece of marine ply I had. The edges of the pieces still need smoothing slightly to size. Once that is done I'll stitch it together.

I also made the split backstay chainplates. That is the first stainless steel I've ever drilled and the first time I've used metal blue, a punch, and a scribe for decades. Some of the holes aren't perfectly centred but It went okay - slow and steady. Both pieces are at least symmetric I drilled through the same holes for the second. The ends still need rounding off with a file. I added a couple of inches to the design length and drilled holes for the backstay pins on both ends - if one ever breaks/cracks (unlikely I imagine), it should be possible to flip and the use the other end as a temporary replacement.

Image

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:57 am
by fallguy1000
Good luck Mick.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:39 pm
by mhd
Got the keel together to test how the forward portion of it will fit - plans call for 3" pvc pipe on the leading edge. I'll unstitch and epoxy seal the inside surfaces before putting it back together and starting to do the inner joins.

Plans also call for 500kg (~1100 lbs) of lead ballast. I'll bet that won't be cheap these days, but I will try not to think about that until the hull build is out of the way.

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:12 pm
by piperdown
Following along!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:04 pm
by mhd
This morning I unstitched the keel and coated the inside with resin. I'm using a *lot* less resin than when I first started - the aim is to build as light as I can. Once the resin has cured I'll sand and restitch and then do the interior fillets.

I finished making the backstay and shroud chainplates also. And then bought a welder. I plan to fabricate the bow-stem fitting/chainplate myself. Always wanted to learn how to weld - plenty of advice/tutorials online. How hard can it be :D

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:36 pm
by WouldWork
Always wanted to learn how to weld - plenty of advice/tutorials online. How hard can it be
I bought a little stick welder a couple of years ago having said the exact same thing..... Honestly though, after blowing several holes in my steel, a few dozen bits that fell apart and a lot of swearing, tidying and grinding after the fact, I found you can get something strong with some persistence and practice, and it's great to learn new things..

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:58 am
by Jaysen
The best welders are really expert grinders.

Take a class at your local trade school. You don’t need more than the introductory class. Typically only a couple nights and no real testing/certification. The class will show you how the tools are properly used and help you establish base techniques to be safe.

Beat dollars I could have spent.

Which welder did you acquire?

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:36 pm
by mhd
I bought a little stick welder a couple of years ago having said the exact same thing..... Honestly though, after blowing several holes in my steel, a few dozen bits that fell apart and a lot of swearing, tidying and grinding after the fact, I found you can get something strong with some persistence and practice, and it's great to learn new things..
Which welder did you acquire?
Well, I'm sure I'll get *something* ! We'll see how serviceable it is. But yes, always good to learn new things.

This is the welder I ordered. Arrives on Friday. I'll report on progress once I've done some test/practice welding.

https://www.dekotools.com/products/160a ... older-deko
The best welders are really expert grinders.
Now that I can believe!

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:28 pm
by Cowbro
Jaysen wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:58 am The best welders are really expert grinders.
Haha, I prefer: "If you have to grind your welds, you aren't a welder, you're a grinder"

Following along. I love a big boat build.

Phil

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:39 pm
by mhd
So, some progress...

I attached the 3" PVC pipe to the front of the keel as per the plans. Just need to build it up a bit further and then sand back to a fair shape, but I think it looks pretty decent as far as I've gone up to now. Nice and symmetrical and will look better after rounding edges for glassing.

Image

Also the welder arrived. I'm keen to see if I can fabricate the bow forestay/stem fitting myself. First ever attempt at welding was ok and I did a few test welds.

Image
Image

It actually went better than I imagined and with a bit more practice should be fine.

I cut the parts for the stem fitting already using the angle grinder: 316L stainless. They need a bit of cleaning up. Couldn't get the bend as tight as specified in the plans, but it should still be serviceable. Bending the steel was a challenge but I got very close to the required angle. I plan to file down the pieces and get them ready for welding but before doing that I'll make sure I've had a bit more practice with welding some scrap pieces together first (and then beating them severely with a lump hammer to make sure the welds are truly secure!).

Image

Next jobs will be taping the interior keel joints and fairing up the front of the keel. I'll probably fill the pipe at the front of the keel with lead shot mixed with epoxy eventually - different sizes of shot so it packs better, but no rush with that right now.

And I also ordered the first few sheets of ply from the office (thanks Reid!). They are en route currently. After the keel is done I'll aim to make progress on rudder, centreboard, and centreboard case.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:49 pm
by Barn Lancaster
mhd wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:39 pm Got the keel together to test how the forward portion of it will fit - plans call for 3" pvc pipe on the leading edge. I'll unstitch and epoxy seal the inside surfaces before putting it back together and starting to do the inner joins.

Plans also call for 500kg (~1100 lbs) of lead ballast. I'll bet that won't be cheap these days, but I will try not to think about that until the hull build is out of the way.

Mick

Image
Hi Mick you need to have a laying of the keel ceremony (includes naming the boat) one of the three ceremonies in the life of a boat ,laying the keel, launch ,decommissioning. Here's Talon's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIcRfuSEmVk

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:11 pm
by mhd
Barn Lancaster wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:49 pm
mhd wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:39 pm Got the keel together to test how the forward portion of it will fit - plans call for 3" pvc pipe on the leading edge. I'll unstitch and epoxy seal the inside surfaces before putting it back together and starting to do the inner joins.

Plans also call for 500kg (~1100 lbs) of lead ballast. I'll bet that won't be cheap these days, but I will try not to think about that until the hull build is out of the way.

Mick

Image
Hi Mick you need to have a laying of the keel ceremony (includes naming the boat) one of the three ceremonies in the life of a boat ,laying the keel, launch ,decommissioning. Here's Talon's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIcRfuSEmVk
Good point! We have some friends coming over in a couple of weeks - that will be a perfect opportunity! Cheers, Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:09 pm
by mhd
A batch of plywood and various other bits and pieces arrived earlier this week (thanks Jeff/Reid). I cut the centreboard to shape (will be 3x 3/8" epoxied) and have been cutting lead for ballast. Lead was left over from some roof work last year.

I'll cut out a central oversized cavity in the centreboard, fill with compresses/flattened lead to the specified weight (lead is currently in the garage being squeezed flat under all my G clamps), and completely encapsulate the lead sandwich in the cavity. This will saves melting lead, although that will be unavoidable for the keel ballast in future.

Image

After that will be rounding the edges of the outside pieces, shape the profile, and then epoxy/biaxial over the top.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:30 pm
by Jeff
Nice work Mick!! Thank you for the kind words!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:04 pm
by mhd
Sidetracked with visitors for the past couple of weeks. Today I was back to it and taped the first two interior joints on the keel (9oz biaxial). Will aim to do the rest tomorrow.

Image

And glued the first two layers of the centreboard with epoxy/wood-flour. Layers of lead encapsulated in pure epoxy after some work with 60 grit sandpaper on the lead and ply. The lead layer is now level with the ply. Will glue on the final layer of ply tomorrow also.

Image

After that I'll aim to make progress with the CB case.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:30 pm
by mhd
Did a layer of 9oz biaxial tape over the forward/aft joints on the keel. The top-left air bubble thankfully disappeared with the epoxy roller...and writing that reminds me that I didn't clean the roller and by now it will be set solid - arrgghh!

Image

Tape is cut ready for the last two external joints on the keel bottom - tomorrow I hope. Plans call for a further two layers of biaxial over the entire keel but I'll hold off on that until ready to attach to the hull. I want the keel-to-hull tape joint to be the bottom (innermost) layer.

And I also did a coat of epoxy on one side of the centreboard case.

Image

Last thing for the day was taking the electric plane to the centreboard itself to put some very basic profiling shape and taper into. Thicker on the leading edge and tapered aft and that will be enough. I'm not too concerned about getting a perfect profile as I just know I'll end up planing through to the lead underneath at some point and I am determined to avoid that. I'll post a photo of the centreboard once I've sanded it to some kind of reasonably fair shape, prior to glassing.

I need to head out of town to buy some mahogany for the centreboard structure - probably a week away, but will see if I can sneak off early next week some time. I've ordered the required cheek block to lift/lower the CB. But I'm currently thinking over more how to attach the stainless steel cheeks to the centreboard with the suggested sheave/bushings. I'll probably have a stab at cutting/drilling those next week too as I think I have enough 316L stainless left over from the chainplates. Need to tap out one of the stainless CB cheeks for a 3/8" bolt too. I've got the necessary tap/die kit in the garage but I'm a virgin as far as using it in anger for the first time goes - will be fun to at least try my hand at that also. I'm torn between metric/imperial (3/8" or 10mm bolt) - who knows where the boat may be if it ever needs replacement (but by Sod's Law it is bound to be the wrong place for whichever I choose!) so I may drill/tap both.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:29 am
by mhd
Decided to add ~3kg (~6lbs) of lead to the rudder in the same way I did for the centreboard. Cut a recess in the central layer of ply and encapsulate the lead there. Calculated that this should make the submerged portion of the rudder very close to neutral bouyancy.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:39 pm
by mhd
Cut the recess in the central layer of ply for ~3kg of lead. Glued that on to the bottom layer with epoxy/wood-flour mix and epoxied the lead in place. It is under weight in the garage currently. Tomorrow I'll add extra epoxy so it is exactly to the same level as the surrounding wood. Then glue on the top layer.

I also finished shaping the centreboard, drilled out an oversized pivot hole, filled that with putty, and gave the entire thing a coat of epoxy on one side, in preparation for glassing. All edges are rounded over. Will do epoxy on the other side tomorrow.

Image

The rudder pivot (1/2 inch steel rod 316L arrived today along with some more 4" width 316L of 1/8" thickness, and a selection of sheaves. Will think more on the centreboard lifting purchase, but I think I've more or less figured out from the plans how it all hangs together, and will post a few pics when it is done.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:45 pm
by mhd
Another good day. Topped up the expoxy surrounding the lead so it is level (or just slightly above) the ply. I'll sand it completely flat tomorrow and fit the final layer of ply on top. Then can start to rough cut/shape the rudder itself.

Image

Also drilled out the middle of the oversized hole that I filled with putty for the centreboard pivot. Then, after a few false starts, I cut my first bushing from a block of HDPE to fit the hole, and the 1/2" pivot bolt.

Image

I added in some very small "dimples" to the outside of the bushing to provide a mechanical "key". When fitted in place, and filled with putty these should hold the bushing fixed from ever deciding it wants to rotate also. Unlikely as it is perfectly smooth inside, but better safe than sorry.

Image

For some strange, unfathomable reason, I'm happy out of all proportion with how that small bushing turned out! I'm looking forward to sorting out the lifting purchase next. Measured the stainless cheeks today, and will cut them out and test-fit over the next few days.

Image

Still need some more supplies to make more progress with the CB case - hopefully by the end of the week.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:13 pm
by OrangeQuest
Looking really good!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:29 pm
by mhd
Progress. I've more-or-less finished the work for the centreboard lifting purchase mechanism. I just need some spacers and a non-threaded bolt to hold the sheave in the middle of the plates, as specified in the plans. Then once the centreboard is glassed over to its final thickness (2 layers 9oz biaxial), I'll drill out holes to bolt through the cheeks, and also drill the CB pivot hole shown in the lower left corner (pivot is a 1/2" bolt). The steel cheeks are made from 316L stainless, 1/8" thick.

Image

The inside of both sides of the centreboard case are glassed now also (one layer of 9 oz biaxial). As the above photo shows, I've also bought wood to make the rest of the case. I just cut that to fit this afternoon.

Yesterday I tapped my first ever bolt thread in the bottom plate as specified in the plans (3/8") - the sheave bolt tightens up on this once it is all in place and fitted. It will be interesting to do a dry run totest it out before it is all sealed into place. No rush for that though - it looks completely robust and I'm happy with it.

Image

One other thing I've been thinking about. A sea-water inlet pipe at the bottom of the CB case (aftwards). Run a 1/2 inch ID braided pipe up the short edge and diagonal inside of the CB case (aft-side). This could be run into a groove routed out to fit, and then lead that pipe through a hole in the top of the CB case, via watertight grommet, or similar, then to the sink, via a filter. The idea would be to then have a manual pump (Whale flipper pump) at the sink to have easy access to sea-water for rinsing/soaking dishes, hopefully cutting down on using fresh water when cruising.

Any thoughts? Is this a good/bad idea? Anyone else got a similar inlet? I can't see any big negatives, even if it doesn't get used much. And better to have any water inlet up through the inside of the CB and sealed through the top of the CB case than cutting a hole through a further hole in the hull maybe????

I'll post more photos as I progress on the rest of the build.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:08 pm
by rick berrey
There was or is a build on the web for a Serpentaire 701 , I think it was a modified Super Serpentaire ( 6.95 ) , it had some good ideas. Some add on,s like a head , and a raised hatch area with windows . the raised hatch option , if Jacques would bless it , might give you the added storage space you want .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:47 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:08 pm There was or is a build on the web for a Serpentaire 701 , I think it was a modified Super Serpentaire ( 6.95 ) , it had some good ideas. Some add on,s like a head , and a raised hatch area with windows . the raised hatch option , if Jacques would bless it , might give you the added storage space you want .
Hi Rick,

Interesting, thanks! Is this it???

http://4mm4.free.fr/

That is super-helpful. I'm not 100% sure, but from the side plan view at the bottom of the homepage, it looks like they've done exactly as I was planning to do with the extended deck. It appears they've. extended the cabin back to the next aftwards bulkhead and decked over to extend the cabin entirely, shortening the cockpit - the cockpit on the above page looks almost exactly the same proportions as on my paper model, (cockpit approx 25% of linear length of the boat). Yes, I was thiniking of only extending port/starboard sides, but apart from the raised cabin, it looks like what I am likely to build - just extend the deck aftwards.

I'm not keen on the raised central cabin. I'm certain that it will have a negative impact on the stability curve, and I be happier with the flush deck as Jacques designed. Cleaner lines and safer. That said, I did also think about a very low proifle 6"/15cm high slanted viewing window (polycarbonate) just in front of the current (flush) hatch but haven't made a final decision yet. It would be just big/high/wide enough to poke your head in to at eye level and look over the bow without going out of the cabin, or opening the hatch. Will see if I still think it is a good idea when the rest of the hull is built - I'd really like to keep the deck clean if possible.

I just know I'm going to spend a lot of time looking over that website in the next year or two. I'm enjoying the build up to now. Learning as I go.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:52 pm
by rick berrey
Nope , that's not the one , but a good build . There must have a Serpentaire 701 design after the Super Serpentaire , and not a mod off the Super . I will surf the web some and see if i can find it .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:04 pm
by mhd
Keel is glassed inside and out now...I'm happy with how it turned out. I'll put it to one side now, and sand it down prior to attaching it to the hull when that gets built. Once attached, inside and out, it will get another full layer of biaxial prior to fairing.

Image

I also laminated the rudder from three layers of ply (3x 3/8") - next I need to laminate the rudder cheeks onto the top (!) section and then shape it.

Image

You can also see I've started glassing over the centreboard...plans call for two layers of 9oz biaxial on each side. Still a way to go with that.

I've cut pieces of mahogany for a tiller and will laminate those also, in the next few days, along with steel for the rudder attachment.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:38 pm
by mhd
Spent some quality time today with the electric plane and belt sander.

Image

Got rained off just before I finished, but I have something approaching an actual rudder now...

Image

Also did another layer of glass on one side of the centreboard - just one more to go. Tiller is laminated too. I hope to have the final shape of the rudder finished by tomorrow and will then work on the tiller attachment.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:35 pm
by OrangeQuest
Everything is looking very good!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:42 pm
by mhd
OrangeQuest wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:35 pm Everything is looking very good!
Thanks - I appreciate the feedback! Sadly the rate-of-build is going to have to start slowing down soon. Once the rudder/keel/tiller/CB/CBcase are finished I'll have a bit of a break. I'm not going to buy the ply for the hull until early 2023. I'll be gone on a work trip for one/two months then, probably in March so I'm not sure whether to buy the ply before or after that trip. The hull will be started as soon as I can once I'm back. Looking forward to it very much though.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:10 pm
by mhd
Measured the keel volume to get some idea of how full the keel will be with lead ballast, once the boat is complete...

Volume of keel (once centreboard fitted) is approx 73 litres. It will actually be slightly less due to tape+epoxy and keel frames, etc.

Based on pure lead, the ballast called for on the plans will fill a minimum of 60% of the final keel volume.

Image

I'll weigh the lead before it is poured, just to be certain, and just in case what I am supplied with is not pure. I've not made an allowance for the sump called for in the plans, but there should still be plenty of room.

I also finished shaping up the rudder proir to glassing, and sanded the centreboard (still one layer of glass to go) and case. Once all is finished I'll put them all together for a test of the centreboard lifting mechanism.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:31 pm
by mhd
Just did the last bit of epoxy/glass work for two weeks. Tomorrow it is off to San Diego to do some actual sailing...can't wait.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:33 pm
by Jeff
Have a great trip!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:14 pm
by mhd
Jeff wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:33 pm Have a great trip!!! Jeff
Thanks! ASA 101/103/104. Perhaps it is a good idea to learn how to sail a bigger boat, before actually building my own :D It has been dinghys only up to now...gotta start somewhere.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:02 pm
by TomW1
Yes, my wife and I rented a 18' sailboat in St. Thomas for a day on our honeymoon and sailed to St. John. Most fun we had. Biggest I had been on was 16' and she was used to all sorts of boats. Boy did we have a lot of fun. Hope you do also. Tom

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:11 pm
by mhd
TomW1 wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:02 pm Yes, my wife and I rented a 18' sailboat in St. Thomas for a day on our honeymoon and sailed to St. John. Most fun we had. Biggest I had been on was 16' and she was used to all sorts of boats. Boy did we have a lot of fun. Hope you do also. Tom
Just back from completing ASA 101/103/104. Yep, we had a fantastic time sailing from San Diego, up to Oceanside, Dana Point, and over to Catalina Island. Wind could have been a bit better on the last couple of days, but I think we already both feel a lot more confident sailing a bigger boat than a couple of weeks ago. No-one was seasick and if anything it just made us even more determined to get the boat built and out on the water as quickly as we can.

We're going to sign up to do ASA 105 in the next few weeks (Coastal Navigation) and then 107 (Celestial Navigation) at some point after that - both are home-study. ASA 106 (Advanced Coastal Cruising) may follow when time (and money) allows. It is useful to have some instruction, but nothing learns you faster than doing something on your own, making your own mistakes, and learning from them.

The aim now is to progress with the VG23 build as fast as possible. Of course, life gets in the way. I'm flying back to the UK for an unplanned trip on Friday for a funeral, so not much is going to happen for a while longer.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:07 pm
by mhd
Well, back to the grind once more :-) Yesterday I worked on prepping metal for the rudder fittings. Lots of hole-drilling...

Image

I also cut steel for the tiller attachments

Image

Image

Today it took me a full day of welding (and some significant grinding) to weld the parts up into something decent. I didn't quite finish, but should have them done tomorrow. No idea how much it would have cost to have someone make the pieces for me but in the end it is satisfying to have done them myself, even if the finish isn't going to be quite as nice. Practice makes perfect I suppose.

I'm also just about finished with the centreboard + case and will hopefully be ready to test out the raise/lower mechanism in the next few days.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:32 pm
by mhd
The outcome of yesterday's welding. Rudder and tiller fittings are more or less ready. The rudder should be adustable upwards (to the same draft as the keel with CB lifted) to allow shallow-water sailing. The three rudder attachments will be recessed into the rudder itself. On the boat stern there will be two attachments on the transom and one under-water on the skeg. I'm pretty pleased with how it has gone. My only gripe is that after welding I decided to knock down the full surface of the steel to get rid of all my welding blemishes. It was going to be a lot of polishing (far too much) to stick with a completely smooth surface.

Image

Image

I *may* lay another weld bead on a couple of the pieces next time I get the welder out, just for neatness, but overall I'm happy enough.

I now need to make six acetal bushings to fit the inner pivot (1/2 inch stainless rod within the 1" ID steel on the fittings).

The tiller pivot block will be glued/glassed onto the aft edge of the rudder to allow the tiller to flip up and over and lay vertical on the aft side of the rudder for transport.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:20 pm
by mhd
Just signed up for the 1st Module at Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology. I'll see how it goes for the first year, and then decide whether to continue or not.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:04 pm
by piperdown
Very neat and a fun build to watch!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:58 pm
by mhd
piperdown wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:04 pm Very neat and a fun build to watch!
Thanks for the support. I've really been enjoying the whole process.

I'm trying to think several steps ahead where possible and am looking forward to getting started on the hull, probably when things warm up a bit in the spring. The garage is a bit too cold for epoxy currently, although I could heat it if needed.

Today I worked on fitting a seawater inlet pipe to the inside of the centreboard. I'll post a photo when that is finished.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:31 pm
by VT_Jeff
Great looking work and congrats on all the new skills youre racking up, thats one of the best parts of this business! The sailing courses sound great too! I looked into doing some courses so i could credit-card captain in the carribean, but then i got the quote for the boat rental and realized i didnt have the right credit card!

Curious why you want to run your raw water intake through the keel. The 3-4 on my sailboat are all through the hull bottom basically under their point of use(galley sink/head sink/head/engine cooling.....i think thats it). Im going to guess you want it low so it will work with the rail-down?

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:14 pm
by mhd
VT_Jeff wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:31 pm Great looking work and congrats on all the new skills youre racking up, thats one of the best parts of this business! The sailing courses sound great too! I looked into doing some courses so i could credit-card captain in the carribean, but then i got the quote for the boat rental and realized i didnt have the right credit card!

Curious why you want to run your raw water intake through the keel. The 3-4 on my sailboat are all through the hull bottom basically under their point of use(galley sink/head sink/head/engine cooling.....i think thats it). Im going to guess you want it low so it will work with the rail-down?
Thanks! Yes, the courses weren't cheap, but we both enjoyed the experience. To be fair, just one or two of the courses would have been enough for what we wanted, but we were still learning and practicing things each day. And we visited some places we'd never been before. Now we want to get the build finished and put our limited knowledge into practice before we've forgotten everything...

As for the water intake, I figured the centreboard (CB) case was already one hole in the boat, so why not use that - no need for a sea-cock. The galley on the VG23 is right next to the CB case so it will be a short pipe run. And unless the intake pipe springs a leak (3/4" OD braided) water can't get into the cabin at any point - I've run the pipe to come out of the top of the CB case and that is above the waterline - I'll fit some kind of rubber grommet or might use silicone sealant to make it reasonably watertight just to be sure. We'll then use a hand pump next to the galley sink to pump up as needed.

Up to now I'm realising that boat building is really an exercise in project management, along with everything else. Trying to think of each part of the build, and also the complete final design, and hold it all in your head at the same time. I'm really trying not to make any decisions now that somehow make life a pain aboard in future (e.g. things in the wrong place that can't be moved without a lot of future work). But of course I'm still making my own mistakes along the way - biggest one up to now was cutting the CB case inspection hatch hole in the wrong place. Just 1" too far to the right and as a result once it was sealed up I wouldn't have been able to reach/change/replace the cheek block that is in there to lift the CB itself. I'd measured it three times prior to cutting too so only myself to blame. Not a major issue but I'm glad I caught it.

Mostly small mistakes up to now, but there are bound to be some bigger ones before I'm done...

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:19 pm
by VT_Jeff
Now I get it. Very clever!

I cant imagine the mental gymnastics of planning/building your own cruising boat. I suspect fallguy has a pretty good idea though!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:54 am
by mhd
VT_Jeff wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:19 pm Now I get it. Very clever!

I cant imagine the mental gymnastics of planning/building your own cruising boat. I suspect fallguy has a pretty good idea though!
Yeah, I'm trying to read/learn a lot of what people have done before. But also to trust myself and not be scared to go my own way or make my own mistakes when the situation arises.

I'm constantly impressed by the skill/time/patience/dedication some people have - some of the boats on here and elsewhere are truly works of art.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:35 pm
by mhd
Drafted out a very basic 12V system using two 85 Ah batteries, an estimated 200W of solar power, and various different components for the VG23. This will probably get modified at some point but a good place to start. Fans/low-power heater/cooler-plate/lights/navigation/radio.

Since the boat will only have a temporary outboard (so I can't ground to that) and no keel bolts or other significant external metal, and I don't want numerous circuits with floating potentials, I decided to make a common ground from pure copper plate below the waterline inside the centreboard case (but easily removable). This way, during normal use, everything will have a common negative voltage (that of the surrounding seawater). The ground plate connection can/will be disconnected for mooring in any marinas where other boats might be around too, all at a different potential. I currently don't intend to use shore power.

I made a similar (simpler) system on the Jeep that we use when camping - that does work using a floating potential and doesn't have a common ground. I wanted the common ground for the boat to keep all the DC components at the same potential and avoid any possible sparking - never a good idea on a boat.

There appears to be a *lot* of voodoo concerning electrical system design for boats, and the issue of grounding, and particularly grounding for lightning. I haven't decided which way we might go on that, and whether we may install some kind of lightning protection system. But doing it this way the entire 12V onboard DC system will be completely separate from any possible lightning protection system that we might install in future(which will need its own more serious external grounding). I haven't sketched out how to deal with grounding the VHF on the diagram here either but will get to that before too long I'm sure.

Image

Any battery recommendations? I've been looking at the Trojan deep-cycle batteries but they don't come cheap!!!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:20 pm
by mhd
Did a bit of a test with an old washing up bowl and a 150W water heater. I was thinking of maybe a small solar panel to be separate from the rest of the electrical system and directly attached to a small capacity "hot water" tank - just a few gallons. After a full day it should be warm enough to use for dishes etc. I'll do a more rigourous test when the sun is a bit higher in the sky in the spring. Directly connected to battery it was warmed from ambient to a decent temperature within an hour. Potential drop was 0.6 V (12.6 V to 12.0 V) when first connected. I could of course just connect it into the full electrical system...will decide after a bit more thought.

Image

My course materials arrived for the Westlawn course too, so plenty to keep me out of trouble this week.

Image

I've still not managed to get the centreboard case finished, but it is close now and hopefully I can fit that in too.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:53 pm
by mhd
Centreboard and case are practically finished now. Took longer than I thought, mostly due to me adding un-necessary complications. But I'm still happy with the result. Just needs fairing, and painting inside now, and the inspection hatch cutting in the top piece (not shown in pics).

Image

The orange wire leading off to the left will be connected to the negative bus in the boat and provide a common ground for electrical system. The raise/lower wire is stainless 1x19 with a two-part purchase, and will be operated from inside the cabin (or perhaps lead back to the cockpit). The water inlet (obviously just using a test piece here) will eventually be led to the galley sink.

Image

The short white cylinder on the lifting mechanism is to keep the wires on the pulley - originally they had a habit of slipping off during raising/lowering.

Image

Image

The grounding plate is two pieces of copper 4"x12". I epoxied two pieces of copper to the inside case and glassed these over. Then drilled and tapped holes. Messed up the original holes as you can see - need to fill these in and glass over, and also coat the inside of the new holes with epoxy too, to make sure water can't seep through. When the grounding plate is attached for real, I'll coat the inside of the holes with marine sealant prior to screwing it down tight. The three bolts next to the case hold the plate securely together at that side. They screw through tapped copper and provide a location to attach a grounding wire. The nuts/bolts are silicon bronze. I ground down the nuts and the bolt heads as I was worried about them catching/scratching the centreboard, but it isn't close at all and I needn't have bothered. The square piece of copper on top are my diy large washers.

Image

All done with that now. The cb and case can head to the basement to join the keel and rudder. Next I need to do a few more tests for parts of the electrical system and start thinking about facilities for ablutions and WC - probably solar-shower and portapotti.

It it is getting ever-closer to the point where I have to actually buy the rest of the plywood and cloth and tape and epoxy...($$$$$$$$!!!)....and start building the hull itself.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:15 am
by OrangeQuest
All very nice and clever. Very well done.

Very exciting to get to the part of assembling a hull!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:30 pm
by mhd
OrangeQuest wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:15 am All very nice and clever. Very well done.

Very exciting to get to the part of assembling a hull!
Thanks. I'm very much looking forward to the hull build. I think I more or less understand the entire build concept now - but that is different to having the hull full-scale in there and realising exactly how much room there is/isn't to work with. Still, onwards and upwards. Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:41 am
by mhd
Has anyone here experimented with a DIY Peltier cool box? Any tips? The electronics are cheap and there are plenty of examples online. I bought some plates + fan + heatsink, etc, and have been doing a few tests. Next job is to build an enclosure and see how what delta-T temperature difference is possible inside/outside and whether it will be worth the effort.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:39 pm
by mhd
Tested a simple Peltier cooler plate circuit. Used a single TEC1-12715 plate rated at 142 Watts. That thing gets HOT ver quickly - and cold on the other side of course.

I rigged up four 40x40mm fans on top of four 40x40 aluminium heat-sinks and stuck the plate agains a sheet of aluminium. Then used dual temperature probes to test temperature on each side - one is just wedged under the metal plate. Concept works fine, but although the cold side of the plate initially starts to cool, it then starts to warm up - too much thermal conduction between hot/cold sides so I definitely need to build a well-insulated enclosure and use proper thermal paste or some other thermal pad with high heat conduction to do a better test. Circuit draws around 7 or 8 Amps.

Image

Not really sure it is worth the effort, but hopeful at least some kind of useable cool-box might result. And it is too cold here to do much epoxy work so I've got to spend my time doing something until the spring I suppose...

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:06 pm
by mhd
Pretty much ready to order ply/glass/resin/paint, etc. Will be the first job in 2023. I'm going with S3 (worked well on FB11). However, while I can usually estimate (or over-estimate) epoxy, tape, and cloth, I'm not sure on quantites for paint/primer. I'm not looking for a boat-show finish. Durability is the main criterion.

Based on estimated coverage in the paint specs I was thinking 7.5 gallons of quikfair, 5 gallons of primer, 5 gallons of topside paint, and a couple of gallons of bottom paint.. This is for the VG23 but am now starting to think it will probably need more paint/primer for multiple coats.

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it was somewhere between half and double these quantities. Anyone else used S3 on a large boat? Any advice on estimating coverage beyond estimating the square footage and assuming the proposed coverage in the specs is accurate?

Thanks in advance,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:44 am
by rick berrey
I have always used sq ft coverage to estimate paint for a project and added 3% . If you can buy local I would not add the 3% , if you have to get it shipped then add the 3% . You will control how the paint is applied and cut down on waist , the paint company also is factoring in some waist as well . I would make a material spread sheet and try to hold to it with both cost and material use , if you buy extra material you will be prone to both waist and over building the boat , resulting in a heavy boat at greater cost . You should look at the project in terms of square footage and treat it like any other construction project , take material bid,s and buy in bulk , line it out from start to finish and know your next step before you get to it . You have already shown you have ability when tackling this project , you might need some encouragement along the way but I don't see you needing much help .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:09 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:44 am I have always used sq ft coverage to estimate paint for a project and added 3% . If you can buy local I would not add the 3% , if you have to get it shipped then add the 3% . You will control how the paint is applied and cut down on waist , the paint company also is factoring in some waist as well . I would make a material spread sheet and try to hold to it with both cost and material use , if you buy extra material you will be prone to both waist and over building the boat , resulting in a heavy boat at greater cost . You should look at the project in terms of square footage and treat it like any other construction project , take material bid,s and buy in bulk , line it out from start to finish and know your next step before you get to it . You have already shown you have ability when tackling this project , you might need some encouragement along the way but I don't see you needing much help .
Hi Rick,

Yep, it will be shipped, not collected. I am also thinking about a reserve for when (not if) the boat needs touching up in various places.

Thanks. That's good advice that I needed to hear. I'll follow it.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:48 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:44 am I have always used sq ft coverage to estimate paint for a project and added 3% . If you can buy local I would not add the 3% , if you have to get it shipped then add the 3% . You will control how the paint is applied and cut down on waist , the paint company also is factoring in some waist as well . I would make a material spread sheet and try to hold to it with both cost and material use , if you buy extra material you will be prone to both waist and over building the boat , resulting in a heavy boat at greater cost . You should look at the project in terms of square footage and treat it like any other construction project , take material bid,s and buy in bulk , line it out from start to finish and know your next step before you get to it . You have already shown you have ability when tackling this project , you might need some encouragement along the way but I don't see you needing much help .
Well, I did the spreadsheet. Very grateful for your comments - they made me think more and that is probably just what I needed. My back-of-envelope pencil had under-estimated the topside paint by 30% and over-estimated bottom paint by 20%. At least as far as my calculations go before the hull is built. Just what I needed. Made me think more. How many coats do I need? How will the changes I plan affect things? Do I epoxy+pigment or paint inside lockers? I think I was getting lazy and good to make me crank the handle and do the work that is required. Good advice that is much appreciated.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:08 pm
by mhd
Did another test on a Peltier coll-box with a dummy fuse board. Fuse board will need only minor changes (order a 12V Max volt meter rather than 240V!) plus some more components. Cool box needs more work to get a better differential temperature between in/out but the design looks viable. Will add an extra cooler plate with fan and heatsink, increase/improve insulation, and likely reduce volume - final volume/size/shape will be decided when the hull is built and I can test various locations for it.

Image

Back to UK unexpectedly again today due to family stuff. More in 2023.

Have a Merry Christmas everyone!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:11 pm
by mhd
Got back to the US a few days ago. I'd ordered some custom acetal (delrin) bushings for the rudder and they arrived while I was away. Tried to make my own, but acetal isn't easy to cut clean and accurate without machine tools. I could make one myself, but no chance of getting them all matched as accurately as needed. Reasonable price ordered from Patrick at Genesis Tools here...https://www.ebay.com/itm/192461083932 (gentoolco@aol.com).

Send off a schematic sketch of what you want and they quote a price.

Image

Image

Top two brackets for the rudder will be on transom, and the bottom one on the skeg. stainless 316L rod for the rudder pivot and brackets. Rudder for the VG23 should lift for shallow draft - just enough so that it is just above the height of the keel. Will sort out the final fitting once the hull is complete.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:56 pm
by mhd
Spec'd out the plywood + epoxy + paint + glass order with Reid in the office and will confirm tomorrow. Plywood ain't cheap, but building a new boat is certainly cheaper than buying a new boat...if you don't count your own labour costs!

Looking forward to getting started on the hull :-)

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:57 pm
by fallguy1000
Make sure to buy enuff ply. Freight is mean.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:02 am
by mhd
fallguy1000 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:57 pm Make sure to buy enuff ply. Freight is mean.
Thanks! Yep, I got enough to make mistakes with :-) Hopefully there won't be too many...measure twice (or thrice!), cut once.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:32 pm
by mhd
Just started making the "basket mould" to build the boat in. Did the first two stations but ran out of 4x2 so will have to collect some more next time I'm in town. Ply and the rest of the supplies are somewhere en route between Florida and here, but won't be long now. Lots of people finishing their boats recently and a few of us just getting started. Nice to see what others are up to and think about all the different ways there are to arrive at the same end point... Boat in water. Big smile on face.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:44 pm
by mhd
For some strange reason, I got sent a complimentary copy of Professional Boatbuilder magazine. I'm certain I don't qualify as a professional, but regardless, there is a very good article in there about DC systems (grounded v ungrounded, how things can affect AC installations on the same boat, etc.) and some changes to the ABYC code that are under review currently. The article also touches on *why* the recommendations are as they are, and why there are proposed changes.

It is the 2023 Feb/March issue.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:46 pm
by mhd
Okay, still awating the ply delivery (currenty in Akansas apparently) so it will be next week to make any progress with the actual build. But I had to do *something* so I installed OpenCPN on my (Linux) laptop and connected up a cheap GPS. A few niggles but it is working now and I have my position in New Mexico, sadly a long way from the ocean. No doubt it will work fine though. But that is okay for the laptop in the cabin of the boat, but I don't really want my laptop in the cockpit...

Many other users of OpenCPN out there? Maybe I'll consider mounting a tablet in the cockpit and run OpenCPN on that...?

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:54 am
by fallguy1000
I haven't done any chart plotting, yet. But I aim to.

I wish I knew more.

Where do you intend to sail?

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:05 am
by mhd
fallguy1000 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:54 am Where do you intend to sail?
Hello FG,

The plan will be to keep the boat more or less permanently on the west coast (although it could also end up on the east coast depending on what the boss says). We won't be tied to NM once it is finished, so may end up moving out there ourselves. We want to improve our sailing first so up/down the coast to start wtih until we're more confident, and then up to Canada and/or down to Baja and Mexico. But that is just a tentative plan - a lot can happen before that.

I can say that in just two days of playing around with it, I've found OpenCPN to be pretty easy to get up and running and to learn to use. You can get the NOAA charts for free (I've now got the entire collection of raster RNC charts on my laptop) and the interface works nicely. A cheap tablet with OpenCPN running and affixed in the cockpit should be reasonably easy to achieve. You can also hook up an AIS receiver and a lot of other possibilites.

Of course, those are just my first impressions - hard to do a proper test when the boat isn't built and the water is a long way away.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 10:29 am
by Jeff
Mick, The YRC tracking system is down this morning but your order should be there very soon!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:08 am
by mhd
Jeff wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 10:29 am Mick, The YRC tracking system is down this morning but your order should be there very soon!!! Jeff
Hi Jeff,

No problem. I've been checking YRC every few days and the order seems to have been in Little Rock "loading" for three days. Last delivery estimate to ABQ was Thursday and then they will hopefully phone to arrange local delivery. I'm away on the 28th for a six-week work trip so I really hope it gets here before then or I'll not be around to help with the delivery.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:14 am
by Jeff
Mick, I will keeping checking as well!! I hope your relatives in the UK are doing ok!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:11 pm
by mhd
Ply etc., arrived yesterday evening - thank Reid/Jeff. All very nicely packed.

It was *heavy* though, and once the truck was backed up on the sloping drive it was impossible to move from the back of the truck all the way on to the lift, so we ended up unloading by hand. Not too big a job, but slightly sore shoulders today - 47 sheets of ply plus the epoxy :-)

Image

Today I'll organise things more in the garage and prepare to start butt-joints for the longer sections - the middle two basket mould frames are build and on the far left, ready to go.

Image

Nothing much will happen for a whlie now. I've got one final long trip away for work first - so an enforced break for six weeks, and then back to the build full time.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:22 pm
by Fuzz
Holy crap 47 sheets! Are you building the Queen Mary :?:

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:31 pm
by mhd
Fuzz wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:22 pm Holy crap 47 sheets! Are you building the Queen Mary :?:
Hi Fuzz :-)

Study plans and spec call for 37 sheets, but some modifications on the interior/exterior. Plus I *really* want to try and sqeeze a very small tender on there if it is in any way possible. I'm going to try and design that myself once the hull is complete and I can see exactly how much room there is. If it isn't possible, then I suppose I'll build something else :-)

Plenty of work ahead!!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:34 pm
by Fuzz
Orders enough wood to build two boats 8O BBV is a powerful thing :lol:
I am sure you will have lots of fun. I would love to build another boat just to build one, have no need just the want.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:01 pm
by rick berrey
The FB11 Nesting Dinghy I think would be too big , but there was a nesting dinghy on the forum built before the FB11 plans . You could look at how he built it or buy the FB11 plans and convert the PK78 into a nesting dinghy , you can find 4' to store it . You have enough ply for a couple .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:34 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:01 pm The FB11 Nesting Dinghy I think would be too big , but there was a nesting dinghy on the forum built before the FB11 plans . You could look at how he built it or buy the FB11 plans and convert the PK78 into a nesting dinghy , you can find 4' to store it . You have enough ply for a couple .
Hi Rick,

I actually already built the FB11 so I have the plans - the blog is here viewtopic.php?t=66028. But you are dead right - it is too big/heavy (my first build - I'll try not to repeat the over-built mistakes this time). Yep, the design I'm thinking of would maybe be a modification. Built fast and as light as possible and just rowing - no sail option. But Jacques indicated there wouldn't be room for a tender, so if that is the case I'll use the ply for something else.

I spent part of today simply sorting out the ply and epoxy and organising everything in the garage to get ready. Looking forward to getting started, but work is going to get in the way of that. However, it should be the final time that happens I hope.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:37 pm
by mhd
Fuzz wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:34 pm Orders enough wood to build two boats 8O BBV is a powerful thing :lol:
I am sure you will have lots of fun. I would love to build another boat just to build one, have no need just the want.
Yeah, it is addictive for sure. But my aim for now is to get the VG23 on the water as fast as I can, and simply become a proficient sailor. And then we'll see what happens... :-)

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:22 pm
by mhd
Well, after a loooooonnnng trip for work, I got back last night, very jet-lagged, but ready to commence the hull build.

Today we started end-to-end joints on the ply for the main hull panels. Initially we will need five so started with the first one today. Primed with resin on the end-grain and then a resin/wood-flour mix on each end before pushing them up together and taping with 12oz biaxial tape. I'll leave for 24 hours before flipping and doing the other side. Only space to do one panel at once, and that is partially out of the garage door, so at least ten days of work before we're ready to cut the panels and start stitching them up. But at least things are moving again.

Image

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:07 am
by Jeff
Mick, Glad to see you starting the build!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:57 pm
by mhd
Turned over the first panel. Joint looks solid and I'm happy with it, so I taped the other side.

And tested out the new fish-eye lens for my camera :-)

All good up to now.

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:07 pm
by mhd
Started on the second long hull panel. Getting to be a tight squeeze in the garage, but all going well up to now.

Image

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 6:13 pm
by rick berrey
As fast as your moving you'll be needing paint soon

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2023 3:26 pm
by mhd
Second and third panel completed just now. I was debating whether I finished the third and then cut them to size and install in the basket mould, or wait until I've makde up all five long panels (extra two are for topside panels). I've decided to join all five first simply because of the room it takes. Should be finished by Thursday at the latest, and will then mark and cut out and stitch up the hull.

All the measuring in the world doesn't really prepare you for how big the boat is actually going to be!

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:09 pm
by mhd
Parts are arriving...

Andersen No.12 self-tailing winch x2
Jabsco Compact Marine Toilet
Plastimo Contest Cockpit Compass

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:15 pm
by Jaysen
Congratulations!

Now comes the fun part. Build a boat to put them all on!

You’ll have a real fast move from flat panels to “that looks like a boat”. Don’t slow down because that’s when the hard stuff starts. The further along you go it starts to feel like visible progress takes exponentially more effort. It does. But in the end, the water is yours to explore. I’m looking forward to following your build through to the end!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:20 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:15 pm Congratulations!

Now comes the fun part. Build a boat to put them all on!

You’ll have a real fast move from flat panels to “that looks like a boat”. Don’t slow down because that’s when the hard stuff starts. The further along you go it starts to feel like visible progress takes exponentially more effort. It does. But in the end, the water is yours to explore. I’m looking forward to following your build through to the end!
Yep, the house looks more and more like a chandlery every day :-) I've got tons of stuff here and there, and bookmarks to all the other stuff I need to order. I'm in it to the end for sure - come hell or high-water!!!

Thanks for the support, mate!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:53 am
by Jeff
Good progress!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:10 pm
by mhd
Yesterday I said goodbye to more $$$s and ordered cleats and chocks and a bilge pump. Today, I cut the first three hull panels to size - 2x chine panel and bottom panel. A *lot* of checking of the dimensions before biting the bullet and putting saw to wood, but all good I think. I will cut the last two topside panels tomorrow. Then at the weekend I hope to build the "basket" on wheels to build the hull inside of, and stitch the hul pieces together. One step at a time. The plans then call for all bulkheads and stringers to be cut to size and test-fitted in place before the hull panels are measured for symmetry and can be finally glued up.

One change I've been comtemplating from the original VG23 design is to add in the "skirt" originally designed by Jacques as a "offshore" modification for the VG23 - I have the plan modifications for this "offshore" version showing the skirt along with a bridge deck, longer rudder and larger skeg - all changes I do aim to carry out. The skirt in Jacques' offshore version is very similar to the skirt used to lengthen the VG18 to become a VG20. In the design for his "offshore" VG23 the transom moves forward and the cockpit volume is reduced as a result. However, I will modify this with my own similar idea, which is that the transom will remain in the original location and a shorter skirt will be added aft of the transom. The result would be a boat roughly 9 to 12 inches longer, giving with a small amount of additional stern flotation, a mount for the outboard, etc.. I plan to reduce cockpit volume by the alternative method of lengthening the cabin (see below). One thing to note is that all builders of the skirt (for VG20 at least) highly approve of the design.

if I decide to go with this "skirt" option (and if I can fit in the extra length in the garage - which is not guaranteed) it will become obvious in the next few weeks. I've lengthened/cut the hull panels with this in mind as an option. There will also be a small change in balance of the boat to deal with given the extra LWL but some other things are possible to compensate for this.

Additionally, I decided to definitely lengthen the cabin aftwards from bulkhead F to bulkhead G (discussed with Jacques and approved at the start of this build) and to try to squeeze an extra inch or two of headroom in the cabin if possible. I've made changes to the plans with all these things in mind. Of course, there is a lot of fiddly messing around with dimensions etc for all this, resizing bulkheads/frames, etc., etc., etc. It would have certainly been simpler/quicker to just to build to the plans. But that is the advantage of building your own boat - you get to make changes if you think it is worth it, and live with the consequences if you mess up.

I should stress that nothing I'm changing will fundamentally affect the stability or seaworthiness of the design. The stability of the VG23 and the offshore capability were the reasons I chose this design in the first place.

I'll detail the entire build, and will highlight any changes from the original plans as things progress.

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:51 am
by Jeff
Nice!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:54 pm
by Fuzz
Will enjoy watching this come together :D

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:03 pm
by mhd
All hull panels cut. Used a 12' piece of trim as a batten to get a reasonably fair curve (overlapped points).

Image

I've decided to make up the two stringers first before joining the hull panels - will have more space that way. I'll need to join another couple of pieces of ply so an extra couple of days before I can build the hull. There are plenty of other pieces of ply left over than I will also start marking out and rough-cutting for various parts.

Image

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:27 am
by Jeff
Nice progress!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:46 pm
by mhd
OK, a hard few days. I joined up more ply for the two long stringers, and cut two bulkheads (A and B). This morning I joined up the middle two portions of the basket/cradle and put wheels on it. Not the most professional job, but it will serve. Trying to work in the garage, with such limited space, and heavy unweildy sheets of ply is a real pain. Seems like all the heavy items always need moving so there is space to do the job in hand. But at least most of the big stuff is done now and space should improve as the wood gets moved from the ply pile into an actual boat.

There isn't a lot of room but one good thing to note is that the boat actually will fit in the garage :-)

Just now we moved all the hull pieces outside, rearranged everything, and brought them back in, with the first three pieces now inside the basket mould, ready for stitching up. I may give myself a day off first. I did some of my Westlawn coursework for the first time in a couple of months today and that was a nice change - theoretical rather than practical boatbuilding!

Next job will be moving and rearranging all the ply off the floor and stacking it somewhere, and putting down plastic sheeting under the basket so my garage floor doesn't end up in an even worse state. Will post photos as progress is made.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:01 am
by rick berrey
I think there is enough room to add that 10% , you might have to rearrange a little :D

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:28 am
by Jeff
Nice progress Mick!!!! have a good weekend!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 6:55 pm
by mhd
Got a few stitches in and it starts to look like a hull but that's enough. It isn't aligned or anything, but I'm too tired to do any more today. And I need help to move it into the centre of the basket mould before I go any further. I'll do that and stitch up the rest to get it reasonably square over the weekend.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:37 pm
by mhd
Spent the last two days tidying up in the garage and moving things around to more sensible places to work. Also balanced the boat better and got it more stable - it is now possible to walk inside the hull without it feeling like the whole thing will collapse. The hull is pretty well aligned and square and level, even without the bulkheads. Today we fitted the topside panels and now space to work really is at a premium :-)

Image

The topside panels are designed to be lower in the cockpit, but I have not yet cut them down as I want to see what shape looks best. Whether slightly higher topsides will still look good - I've done a few sketches and will decide once the bulkheads have been test fitted and can sketch on some some different profiles.

The bow needs re-stitching to get is better aligned :-)

Image

Next job is marking out where the stringers fit inside the hull, and then fitting them, and the bulkheads. I already cut one stringer to shape and it looks a good fit (marking out appears to have been accurate), so I can cut the other one the same. I've marked out Bulkhead A and B but not cut them exact yet. Bulkheads C, D, E, F, need some panels joining and then marking/cutting. Bulkhead G needs re-designing to fit the extended cabin port and starboard. Bulkhead H is a straight measure and cut. The transom needs laminating, then marking/cutting.. I think a minimum of two to three weeks to get all the stringers and bulkheads in the hull.

But no problems. This is a nice boat to build up to now (and would be a lot easier with a bit more room!!!).

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 12:02 pm
by Jeff
Nice progress Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 2:29 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:01 am I think there is enough room to add that 10% , you might have to rearrange a little :D
Well, currently the hull is over 16" longer than designed :-) I just never cut down the panels to the exact size and left them as the full length of three panels with the necessary marking on there in case they hadn't fitted. I've thought more and more about the skirt that Jacques designed and am going to try and squeeze at least a short skirt at the stern.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 7:50 pm
by rick berrey
Jacques would be smiling over your build , if you read his old post,s when he was designing the VG 26 you could tell he liked a skirt .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 8:42 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 7:50 pm Jacques would be smiling over your build , if you read his old post,s when he was designing the VG 26 you could tell he liked a skirt .
Yeah, I'd really like to think so. I do want to build the boat as he designed it and it is a shame he won't be around to see it in the water. Of all the boats I looked at in the years up to buying the plans, and everything else I read, nothing else really fitted what I was looking for. From reading his posts on here too, and elsewhere, he gave me the confidence that it could be done. I'm sad I never got to meet him in person. But every single time he replied to my questions (whether dumb or not), and in all the posts I read on the VG20/23/26, he was always talked sense and it was pretty clear he really knew his stuff. The boat, when it is finished, will be poorer without his advice along the way.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 9:14 am
by Jeff
Mick, you are going to do fine!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 10:53 am
by rick berrey
Mick , if you haven't read his articles on the Amateur Boat Building site you should , the forum is no longer active as far as I can tell , but the content is still there . Jeff , if there is any way you could get his articles from that forum it would be great to have them here .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 10:57 am
by Jeff
Rick, The Forum is a little slow but still active. Mick can find anything he needs. I am always happy to help if he needs anything specific!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 11:04 am
by rick berrey
Jeff , Jacques did work on another forum " Amateur Boat Builders " , ran by a guy in Europe . The whole design process of the VG26 is on there in 7 or 8 part articles as well as other of Jacques designs . It would be nice to get those articles from that site put onto Boat Builders Central . Rick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 11:21 am
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:04 am Jeff , Jacques did work on another forum " Amateur Boat Builders " , ran by a guy in Europe . The whole design process of the VG26 is on there in 7 or 8 part articles as well as other of Jacques designs . It would be nice to get those articles from that site put onto Boat Builders Central . Rick
Yes, an excellent series of articles by Jacques that I've looked at often. This is the link for the VG26:

https://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/art ... sign1.html

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 1:32 pm
by Jaysen
mhd wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:21 am
rick berrey wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:04 am Jeff , Jacques did work on another forum " Amateur Boat Builders " , ran by a guy in Europe . The whole design process of the VG26 is on there in 7 or 8 part articles as well as other of Jacques designs . It would be nice to get those articles from that site put onto Boat Builders Central . Rick
Yes, an excellent series of articles by Jacques that I've looked at often. This is the link for the VG26:

https://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/art ... sign1.html

Mick
Fun fact... that may not really be all that far from your favorite online supplier of marine builder supplies. ...

Code: Select all

(bbc_community@vpsXXXXXX:~)
drwxr-xr-x 13 bbc_community pgXXXXXXX 4096 Mar  3  2021 amateurboatbuilding.com/
I believe Jacques started the ABB site as a precursor to BBC and Jeff continues to host it in a parallel to these forums and the gallery. I don't maintain it but I do jail it. I really should get in there and take care of it like a 4th child though. It deserves the same love and care as all the other sites.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 1:56 pm
by rick berrey
I thought he was somehow involved , there is a lot on that site that could benefit builders here , and a nice rendering of the TW32 dream .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 2:08 pm
by mhd
Small world! :-) Yep, the content is still valid and very useful.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 6:43 pm
by mhd
Dry-fitted the stringers - they look fine. Took a while adjusting the height of bow/stern to match the bottom curve of the stringers but I'm happy with it now. The stringers terminate aftwards at the originally-designed location of the transom. Any skirt will be fitted aftwards of this point.

I've also dry-fitted Bulkhead A and B and they look okay also. Working on fabricating the other bulkheads one by one now. I'm fitting them more-or-less "whole" initially; i.e. without all the little cuts for the galley, etc. Again, I'm still thinking about the final layout of things and want to see the full-size bulkheads in the boat before I make decisions that will be hard to change in future.

Image

Image

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 9:44 pm
by rick berrey
Are you leaving the hatch location as designed and bringing the cabin top as you drew it aft of the hatch ?

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 7:48 am
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 9:44 pm Are you leaving the hatch location as designed and bringing the cabin top as you drew it aft of the hatch ?
Hi Rick,

Yes, exactly. Extend the cabin top aft on the port/starboard side of the hatch. The original hatch position will be unchanged. I'll also install the bridge-deck that Jacques outlined for the "offshore VG23". The changes will decrease the cockpit volume, which will be useful for offshore sailing, as well as providing some additional interior cabin storage space.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 7:24 pm
by mhd
Busy couple of days.

I wasn't happy with how the hull panels were coming together at the bow - it was possible to just bend the ply to shape, but I had the feeling it wasn't aligned correctly. So I re-stitched the topside panels, moving them forward a couple of inches to see if that helped.. Much improved fit and worth the effort.

I've also got the first three bulkheads dry-fitted in position now and they look good - on the photos below the gaps are exaggerated - the boat wants to spread apart but when the topsides are coaxed together, as they will be when fitted for real, they are a decent fit.

This afternoon I cut out 2x 1/4" and 1x1/2" ply to laminate for the transom. Original plans are for laminate of 2x 3/8" but I'm going slightly thicker (Jacques' offshore rudder design is larger than the original). I'll work on the remaining bulkheads over the next week or two - I keep slightly modifying the position of the boat in the basket - as per the plans the stitches aren't very tight currently and the aim is to allow the panels to find their own shape. The hull diagonals already seem pretty close to perfect, and that is the aim when the rest of the bulkheads go in. The last thing I want is a twisted hull.

Five more bulkheads to make up, plus the transom.

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun May 07, 2023 1:55 am
by Fuzz
Taking the time to get things correct now will save a ton of work latter on.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 9:48 am
by Jeff
Good work Mick!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon May 08, 2023 10:10 am
by pee wee
Nice looking work there, and fortunate that you have a wide angle lens to (mostly) capture it all! Hopefully you have enough space to get around there, looks a little tight.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 09, 2023 2:51 pm
by mhd
Thanks guys. Yep, it is tight in there but there is just about room. Around the bow is the toughest but I should be able to stick the stern out of the garage when needed, and so have a bit of extra room.

And yeah, the work now will save work later. I hope! :-)

I've got Bulkhead D dry-fitted now and the transom is laminated too and I'll cut/fit that this evening. Bulkhead E is measured and ready to cut and dry-fit also. So all moving along nicely. This part has gone quicker than I imagined, but I'm sure things will slow up some when I get on to the glassing. But I'm enjoying it and that is the main thing. I'm looking forward to having the hull tabbed up and the bulkheads all fitted for real.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 11:56 am
by mhd
Okay, all bulkheads dry-fitted. Plumbline on each bulkhead centre (just visible below the spirit level) hits the centreline marked on the bottom hull panel within 1/4"

Image

I'm finishing the transom today and will then tighten up all stitches as per instructions in the plans. It is really difficult to get the hull shape correct (chine to topside) around Bulkhead B and Bulkhead H but I've got it good enough now that I'm happy. Diagonals are correct so once the transom is in we're ready to begin tabbing up the hull in preparation for taping and glassing the inside. At the same time I'll bite the bullet and begin cutting the inner bulkheads to the correct dimensions.

I've tested bending the deck to shape with a half sheet of ply and all appears fine. I'm happy with that and it looks like we'll have just under 2" of extra headroom in the cabin. Some of the bulkhead curves will need a little attention with a block plane or sander as they aren't perfectly symmetrical between port and starboard - you can see that in the curves in the photo. I think that is because I didn't really have room in the garage to get the long batten bent fair when marking out - it was always hitting something at one end, and that pulled/pushed it out of shape. Minor hiccup but I'll make a template curve and shape to that on each side which should sort it all out. To be honest, I doubt it would matter or be noticable when the deck is fitted, but best to get it right now and not regret it later.

The deck will be fitted inside/below the topside panel sheer line right from the bow back up to Bulkhead G now (in original plans deck terminated at Bulkhead F). With the extended deck the deck will now merge flat with the topside at Bulkhead G and forward of that point, right to the bow, I'll fit a thin gunwale/inwale - nothing too heavy - but which will act to stiffen up the boat further longitudinally. Devlin has a nice section on that in "Devlin's Boat Building" and describes it as a "shear-clamp". I liked the idea, and when rounded over and glassed it will also function as a toe-rail. Hopefully I can keep the sheer-line fair and symmetrical at the same time.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 12:01 pm
by Jeff
Nice work Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 7:55 pm
by mhd
Thanks Jeff.

2nd post of the day. Teasing the bow into the correct shape using temporary scraps of ply to align the panels...

Image

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 10:10 am
by pee wee
Good progress, and it's taking shape nicely! The time you take now to get things aligned and making fair curves will pay off in the long run, even though it's an effort. When you're walking up to the dock and your own creation is sitting there all pretty and fair, it's going to feel so good- you'll be a proud papa!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 10:21 am
by pee wee
Having such a tight work space isn't ideal, it'd be nice if you could roll the boat outside to get a better look at it. That said, what I can see looks good.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 10:45 am
by OrangeQuest
A few folding tables to put up outdoors to mark out larger/longer templates before cutting maybe?... get creative!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 16, 2023 12:26 pm
by mhd
Hi guys,

Yes, rolling the boat outside has to happen - not enough height in the garage so at that point we'll have a better idea of how things look. Once it is tabbed up and taped on the inside it will be a solid structure and I should be able to wheel the boat(at least partially) outside - the platform it is built on is on wheels. Couple of weeks to get to that point.

As for marking out (and sanding/cutting the individual pieces) I've been doing more of that outside now the weather is warmer. By next month it will be too warm :-) And I'm trying not to annoy the neighbours too much :-)

All good. I've just finished giving the transom a coat of resin on edges and both sides. I'm hopeful I can have that tabbed in tomorrow. Will report on progess as it goes.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 4:49 pm
by mhd
Interesting. An error on the VG23 plans (both metric and imperial). First one I've noticed and I'm stupid for not figuring it out myself before cutting. When I was marking out last night I knew there was something wrong but couldn't figure out what. After I'd cut this morning and put the bulkhead in the hull, it became obvious...

The mistake is on the "frames" plan (E240/5 - metric and imperial) in the Large Sheets folder (page 6) and the issue is with the port/starboard holes cut in the frame. The bottom horizontal cut of these holes is given on the plans as being at the baseline (waterline) 9 3/4" from the bottom of the frame but should actually be at the same height as the stringer at that point 13 1/8" and the same height as the top of the central hole (cf. page 5 and the stringer dimensions on page 7 where the other dimensions are given). It looks like the necessary horizontal cut lines are simply missing from the plan. The settee/berths go through the p/s holes (and provide legroom for sleeping). The berth is at the height of the stringers and so, unless I'm completely misreading everything, this has to be a mistake on the plans. Otherwise it is going to be a strange sleeping arrangement :-)

I can easily tape/glue the cut pieces back on port and starboard - easy to fix so no harm done. Pretty obvious with hindsight and my own fault for not following my instinct and figuring it out first before I actually put saw to wood.

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 3:34 pm
by Reid
Mhd,

I had Crystal take a look at the plans and make that correction. Sorry there was an error and that you are now having to go back and fix that error! I appreciate you pointing that out so we could make the correction though.

-Reid

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 5:01 pm
by mhd
Reid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:34 pm Mhd,

I had Crystal take a look at the plans and make that correction. Sorry there was an error and that you are now having to go back and fix that error! I appreciate you pointing that out so we could make the correction though.

-Reid
Hi Reid,

No problem at all - totally minor. I only pointed it out so other builders would be aware of it. As a builder it is also my responsibility to pay attention - so my own fault. I've been starring at the plans for so long I should have figured it out. And easy to fix so no harm done.

Today I've tabbed up the bow with putty and small fibreglass squares.- that was the final part. Next I'll remove all the stitches and tape up the inside as per the lamination schedule. I am already in love with this boat - no regrets at all. I've set myself the goal of having the boat moved to the coast and in the water by next year. We'll see if I can stick to that schedule, eh?

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 8:32 pm
by mhd
I cut most of the interior parts of the bulkheads - it certainly makes them lighter to move about. And it was interesting moving around inside the boat, and getting a feel for how much room there will/won't be.

Image

I'm still trying to figure out the final location for everything - water-tanks, batteries, etc. etc. etc. I'm 99% decided, but I keep trying to think if there are other alternatives that might be better. Spending a long time on a small boat will get stale very quickly if things aren't best situated.

All the tabbing is done now and since I took the above photo, I removed all the bulkheads - they are stored outside on the deck under cover now as I don't have room anywhere else. I also removed all the stitches too - the boat supports itself which is a good sign :-) Next job is taping the chine-to-topside and chine-to-bottom panels. Putty and 2 layers of overlapping 12 oz biaxial. Same at the bow and transom. On top of that the entire inside of the boat gets a layer of 12 oz biaxial. Once all that is done and faired and sanded the bulkheads and stringers go back in and get the same treatment.

But before any more we're giving ourselves a couple of days away to recharge our batteries.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 10:34 pm
by mhd
Current situation...tabbing complete...transom fitted...bulkheads removed.

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:21 pm
by mhd
Almost completed both layers of 12oz biaxial on the port side now. First layer is 6" width tape and for the second layer I cut my own 10" width tape from a 50" wide roll. Just a small section to do on the port side now and the second layer on the transom. After that I'll swap sides - the bow still needs taping but that shouldn't take too long. Then it will be on to one layer of 12oz biax over the entire inside hull.

This was the first time I ever laid two layers of glass, one straight after the other, wet on wet. I was worried about it curing too fast, but this was "slow" epoxy and it worked well enough. Now it has dried I don't see any significant air bubbles. For the first time I also mixed in some 1/4" chopped strands into the putty mix along with resin, silica, and wood-flour. A few runs in places where I used a bit too much neat resin but they'll sand off and overall I think I've got a good mix/application technique figured out now. I'm happy with the outcome.

I'm trying to keep on top of other bits and pieces also. The other job I did today was laminate two pieces of white oak together to make a 2" thick internal "stem". I'm going to plane this to a triangular profile and putty it directly inside the hull at the bow. I'll then glass over with the intention of adding strength to the front of the boat, AND to provide a flush surface to bolt the bowstay to internally. This isn't in the plans currently but I see no real alternative if I want the bow-stay bolt nuts to sit flat at 90". I'll post a close-up photo of it once I've got it ready to fit.

Fisheye shot of progress.

Image

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 7:52 am
by Jeff
You are really moving fast Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 9:32 am
by pee wee
I've seen a suggestion that makes sense to me- lay the wider tape first, as there will be less chance of air trapped under where one tape laps over the other. Some people let the first tape set up and grind a taper on the edge, but doing it wet on wet is better.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:47 pm
by mhd
The taping is complete and the boat is much stiffer and less flexible now as a result. Took quite a while but I'm happy with how it has turned out. Two layers all over: 6" width 12oz biax with a layer of 10" width 12oz biax over the top. It seemed to work out fine doing it that way, all installed wet on wet. There were only a few minor air bubbles so I ground those out and filled them. Almost ready to start glassing the entire interior now. Not a job I'm looking forward but it is one step further towards a finished boat. Once the interior is glassed/filled/sanded I will install the stringers - easier to do some fairing now rather than when all the bulkheads are in, but I'm not aiming for a boat-show finish - just good enough.

Aft of the transom I've started working on the skirt and will post photos of that as it progresses.

Visitor in the house for the next couple of weeks so progress will be on/off I imagine.

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:56 pm
by mhd
Installed the inner "stem". The aim is to strengthen the bow to mitigate the effects of any collision - either from debris, or bad seamanship. Also so I have something flat and solid to bolt the forestay to on the interior of the boat.

Two pieces of 4x1 oak laminated together and planed to fit the angle of the bow. Interior of bow was first given two layers of 12oz biaxial. Then the inner stem was fitted first with a epoxy, wood-flour mix and then epoxy, silica, microballoons over the top to save a bit of weight. Sanded back to the wood, then epoxy, wood-flour and silica to fill in the gaps with a layer of 12oz biax over the top of the lot.

Image
Image

Not the best photos, or my neatest work, but there are no air bubbles and the entire interior of the boat is getting sanded and glassed, hopefully starting tomorrow.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 5:50 pm
by mhd
First two sheets of interior glass applied. Whew! Hard and hot work: +80F in NM today, but it went well enough, apart from some ragged edges at the top, but they'll sand out when I do the deck/hull tape joint. One prominent air-bubble remains that I couldn't get rid of, but that will grind and fill also. And tomorrow I'll be more prepared and it should go better...practice makes perfect. I hope! I'll post some pics once I have a reasonable amount done.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:57 pm
by mhd
Preparing to fit the final two pieces of 12oz biaxial cloth to the port side interior tomorrow. After a messy first few pieces, my new method is to screw a batten to the top of the hull to hold the cloth. Start with it folded over the outside of the boat while I spread some epoxy and putty, and then bring it back over and lay flat. Once it is wetted out I slice off level with a stanley knife.

I've also ground out a few air bubbles on the previous sections and filled/taped over and then coated the rest with clear epoxy to partially fill the cloth weave. I'll be glad when the starboard side is also completed and I can start fitting stringers and bulkheads.

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 8:48 pm
by mhd
Finished sheathing the port side. Really messy/rough at the top edge but that will be sanded out when I come to fit the deck. And the last two pieces at the bow were much much better and cleaner - hanging the cloth from a batten works well for me. Live and learn.

Today I sanded the entire starboard side and the bottom of the boat, wiped everything down, and began sheathing from bow-to-stern. New shop-vac made sanding a lot less of a pain than on my previous build - I was reluctant to spend the money, but it was worth every penny. I should be able to do the starboard pieces each within 24 hours of the previous one. Sore back though...

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:38 am
by pee wee
That hull looks huge! Your work looks good, and I agree on the value of a good vacuum for sanding.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2023 2:17 pm
by mhd
pee wee wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:38 am That hull looks huge! Your work looks good, and I agree on the value of a good vacuum for sanding.
Thanks Peewee. Yep, not a small boat. I just laid on another section of cloth. Much neater. Most of the bottom of the boat will be invisible, under lockers and seats and berths, apart from a small section in the centre of the cabin, so I've not stressed too much about looks. I don't plan to sand things super-fine in those areas. But the vac really does make it less of a nightmare job. I hope to get the interior glassing finished by the middle of the week and then install the stringers by next weekend. Fingers crossed.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:15 pm
by mhd
Another day, another dollar piece of cloth. Two more to go on the hull side and one on the transom. I'll be glad when it is finished...three more days.

Image

I've also been laminating additional "beams" of plywood onto the bulkheads, as per the plans. Each one has an additional piece either side. Here are bulkheads B (upright) and C (flat). I'm hoping to have two or three ready to go when the inside glass is finished.

Image

I measured/levelled the boat with a 4' spirit level and dropping a plumb line from a piece of wood balanced across the hull. However, today I found an electronic level that I'd bought for the same purpose a while ago and then couldn't find. Here is a shot of it balanced on the centre-line of the transom. It is a useful (and cheap) device. Nice to know that the boat is level and square "electronically" as well as "manually" :-)

Image

MIck

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:00 pm
by Barn Lancaster
Wow you've been busy the hull looks great !

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:38 pm
by mhd
Barn Lancaster wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:00 pm Wow you've been busy the hull looks great !
Hi Brian,

All well? How's things back in Blighty?

Yeah, been a busy few months here since getting back from Finland. Shame I didn't get to stop by and see you and your own VG23 this time :-) Is she back in the water now?

I finished the interior glassing yesterday and today I've been making up more of the bulkheads with attached beams. Tedious work, but going well. I've got the entire inside to sand down and then will fit the stringers and bulkheads. I'll post some more photos in a day or two.

There's a chance I'll be back ot the UK in November. Will let you know!

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:54 am
by mhd
OK, interior sheathing is done. I used my big sander to tidy up the top edges where there were rough areas - these will get covered with the topside-to-deck tape eventually. Also did some other rough bits where I'd patched over ground/filled air bubbles. But I'm really pleased to have this part of the build out of the way. Next job is to do a complete sanding of the inside with the orbital sander. The majority of the interior is hidden behind berths and lockers so no need to go super-fine. I'll pay most attention to the parts that will be visible in the cabin/cockpit, but again, I'm not looking for a perfect finish on the interior.

However, before I tackle the sanding I want to measure the completed hull and take the lines of the boat as I have built it. I will then calculate various stability parameters and most importantly the GZ righting moment curve. I did have a rough-attempt at this using the measurements on the plans, and some basic guesses, but the complete lines info wasn't provided so the results weren't totally accurate and involved some guesswork and assumptions. This time I'll be able to do an accurate job and produce and accurate curve of my own VG23.

I have a lot of stability and hull info on the VG23, collected from Jacques' posts on the forum, and I have also seen the righting moment stability curve for the VG26 that is given in the study plans, but I haven't seen one for the VG23. I also recall that Jacques commented that he would choose the VG23 over the VG26 for extended offshore cruising, even though it was a slightly smaller boat. It will be interesting to see the results. It will also be good practice to do this myself. It will take some time to do this, but I'll certainly post results when I have them.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:17 pm
by mhd
Since taking the previous pic, I triple-checked the boat was level both longitudinally and transverse, and then set the laser-level at the indicated DWL at one location, and marked it on the boat with a dashed blue line. I then marked out the stations and lines. I don't know what Jacques did for this boat, but for me it is a 10 station boat with a CI of 23.5 inches (I'm working in imperial units, rather than metric for a change). Stations are marked in blue, bulkhead locations in black. You can also see Bulkhead B with the strengthened roof beam dry-fitted in its correct location.

I've not made any of the required measurements for the lines yet - that will come in time - but for this boat and this boat only...

LOA: 272 inches (22' 8") NOTE: *not* including skirt which is still being built on the transom
DWL: 235 inches (19' 5")

MIck


Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:56 pm
by OrangeQuest
Everything is looking really good. It is always exciting to see a boat start coming together.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:29 pm
by mhd
OrangeQuest wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:56 pm Everything is looking really good. It is always exciting to see a boat start coming together.
Thanks OQ. Yep, I confess to enjoying the build thoroughly :-)

Today I worked on finishing Bulkhead C and D and also did some more on building a skirt on the transom. Originally I didn't think I've have enough room, but I could/can squeeze a decent size on there *if* I crawl underneath it every time I go to the other side of the garage.... So for now I'm only building the port side (with duplicate parts for starboard that will be fitted at a later date) so not as big a problem as I anticipated.

Needed to figure out the fitting of an outboard so bit the bullet and ordered this...

https://onlineoutboards.com/collections ... oard-motor

Decent reviews and comes with a 3 gallon tank and an alternator factory-fitted. If anyone else has used or is using one, then I'd be interested to hear their comments...

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:48 am
by OneWayTraffic
Not familiar with that engine but every Mercury under 25hp is actually a Tohatsu. They make a lot of small outboards.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:52 pm
by TomW1
mhd wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:29 pm
OrangeQuest wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:56 pm Everything is looking really good. It is always exciting to see a boat start coming together.
Thanks OQ. Yep, I confess to enjoying the build thoroughly :-)

Today I worked on finishing Bulkhead C and D and also did some more on building a skirt on the transom. Originally I didn't think I've have enough room, but I could/can squeeze a decent size on there *if* I crawl underneath it every time I go to the other side of the garage.... So for now I'm only building the port side (with duplicate parts for starboard that will be fitted at a later date) so not as big a problem as I anticipated.

Needed to figure out the fitting of an outboard so bit the bullet and ordered this...

https://onlineoutboards.com/collections ... oard-motor

Decent reviews and comes with a 3 gallon tank and an alternator factory-fitted. If anyone else has used or is using one, then I'd be interested to hear their comments...

Cheers,

Mick
Mick a 6HP is to small for a 23', 3750lb sail boat. Where did you get the idea that it would be enough. You need at least a 9.9 this is what is on most sail boats over 20'. You have a large keel you have to push and turn and back plus the windage of the hull and sail package. You may need even more than a 9.9. like a 15HP.

Tom

Re: VG23 New Buildp

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:23 am
by OneWayTraffic
TomW search Jacques mertens’ posts for vg23 outboard. He recommends ‘6hp but not more.’

MHD hp may not be the issue as much as blade area and pitch. You will need a large prop to get sufficient thrust to move among against wind or tide.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 5:58 am
by Jaysen
9.9 is way too much motor. You’ll never get over 1/4 throttle before max hull speed and have no control for maneuvering. I can easily move a Helms 24 with a 4hp motor but made the 9.9 mistake. If it were me I’d go with a 6hp sail pro because it can get all the bells and whistles. Just prop it for lighter boat. 6hp should be propped for a 6-10k boat.

An idea I keep trying to remind myself is terrible is an external generator, segregated battery, and commercial sailboat electric outboard (not a dinghy motor). To me this hybrid-ish setup is the future for cruising. Hard part is still going to be the generator.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:29 am
by mhd
Interesting comments. Well, if I could get away without an outboard at all I would. I don't want the weight or the maintenance, and only intend to use it for maneauvering around dock when necessary. For centuries sailboats didn't have outboards at all...

Anyway, my reasoning was based on comments from Jacques and my own research. I wouldn't (yet) classify myself as a profIcient sailor, or boat-builder, or naval architect. But I'm learning. I certainly wouldn't go higher than 6hp and was considering the Honda 5hp but it is similar in weight. Decision was based on my own research plus on what various other folks are using with similar sized boats. Outboards are generally between 3 and 6hp. Look in any marina what outboard sizes are on ~25' sailboats. There are exceptions but almost all are small (3-6hp), not large. The Tohatsu SailPro is also the only one I found that is available with an extra long shaft (25").

I considered a 3hp...but went with Jacques recommendation of "6hp but not more". This quote and his statement that 3hp would give hull speed is in the info I collected from various forum posts and given here (search for "hp" in the page).

viewtopic.php?t=66175

"You may need even more than a 9.9. like a 15HP." Curious where you get those numbers? The VG23 isn't a powerboat...all you need is push to move at hull speed plus a safety margin. 6hp is already more than enough for the VG23. I can dig out the sources I used in my own research - maybe Gerr, and/or Boat Data Book by Nicholson. I think in almost everything I looked at, the recommendation was around 6hp. There is also a simple equation I've seen quoted on many popular sailing websites that outboard size (hp) = displacement (lbs) / 550 (lbs) which gives ~6.8hp.

I did consider electric too but as Jaysen said, maybe for the future...

Of course, manufacturers and dealers are happy to sell you more engine than you need. But a 15hp engine would have implications on trim, overpowered, heavy, nowhere to store it onboard...etc.etc.etc. Plus, the outboard would be removed from the transom when on a long passage. It isn't just the power. The Tohatsu 6hp weighs 60lbs. I *might* just be able to get that on/off the transom in any kind of sea. Anything larger...forget it.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:08 pm
by Jaysen
The overwhelming justification for stupidly over sizing is water current. Once current/motion is at hull speed more hp is useless. It’s a senseless argument based on planing hull logic.

The argument that almost makes sense is overcoming wind profile. The argument fails once you realize that when the wind is sufficient to need more than hull speed hp the water conditions make it useless.

My next motor will be a remote controlled bow mounted trolling motor with GPS sync. Im struggling to justify transom mounted motors for small boats. Given how much testing these things get offshore, at high speeds, holding higher boats on track, and maneuvering in tight locations, I can’t see where they fail for small sail boats.

That said, I’m not losing the transom mounted motor until I test the bow mounted motor a LOT.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:30 pm
by TomW1
You guys are correct adjusting my calculations for a sailboat/displacement they come up with a 5.89HP motor. It was late last night and I should not have run them that late. Sorrry :oops: :oops: I notice that that motor comes with a Hi-thrust prop so that is good.

Tom

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:45 pm
by mhd
TomW1 wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:30 pm You guys are correct adjusting my calculations for a sailboat/displacement they come up with a 5.89HP motor. It was late last night and I should not have run them that late. Sorrry :oops: :oops: I notice that that motor comes with a Hi-thrust prop so that is good.

Tom
No problem! I just re-checked myself as I got worried! Graph I used was on Page 111: Boat Data Book by Nicholson.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Buildp

Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:52 pm
by mhd
OneWayTraffic wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:23 am TomW search Jacques mertens’ posts for vg23 outboard. He recommends ‘6hp but not more.’

MHD hp may not be the issue as much as blade area and pitch. You will need a large prop to get sufficient thrust to move among against wind or tide.
Yep, I'm new to propellers in general. There are some plots of propeller pitch and diameter, also in "Boat Data Book" by Nicholson. I'll see how they compare to the propeller that comes with the motor.

I'll also post photos of the outboard when it is on the (as yet unbuilt!) skirt of the boat :-) I plan on mounting it similar to Justin on his VG20...

https://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/Pro ... g-back.jpg

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:14 pm
by mhd
Finished fitting the deck beam to Bulkhead D (laminated extra layer of 3/8" ply to each side) and also strengthened port and starboard for chainplaets (same). I also spent some time rounding off the edges and transitions so I can apply a layer of 4oz cloth over the entire interior fittings if I choose to.

On the bottome photo you can really see where epoxy ran off the transom and topsides, and down the bottom of the boat...quite a gradient at that point and so some more sanding... Maybe next time I use fast hardener! Needs some work to get a perfect fit, but you get the idea with it just dropped in place...

A, B, C, and D are all more or less ready to go. I started laminating the deck beam on Bulkhead E also, and will now also start sanding the entire inside of the boat - I've been putting it off because my back isn't really in the mood. Can't be put off any longer though. Last job before the stringers get fitted, and then start on the bulkheads. I'm looking forward to having all the main structures in place before too long.

I also took all the measurements for the boat's lines drawing. I've got the lines almost finished now, and will start producting some facts and figures and see if they match up with Jacques numbers. I hope they aren't too far off at least!

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:05 pm
by mhd
So, I took the lines from the boat - my own 10 stations - *not* the sections given in the plans. First thing I calculated was the area of waterplane (A_wp). I have a lot of figures from Jacques' previous posts on stats for the VG23 and A_wp is one of them.

Me: A_wp = 79.381944...ft^2
Jacques A_wp = 80.945417...ft^2

Percentage difference/error is 1.93% = (( | measured-actual | / actual ) *100 )

I find that pretty incredible - or a complete fluke. Jacques designed the boat on a computer and that is where his value for A_wp comes from. I measure as best I can interior/exterior of the boat that I've built that must also have plenty of inaccuracies in the build (not an ideal computer model). Then I calculate the area via Simpsons First Rule (which also is a method with its own assumptions and not perfect) and the values agree to within 2%!!!. Well, maybe there is something in this naval architecture lark after all...

This has given me some confidence, but I cannot believe other calculated parameters will agree to the same level of accuracy - we shall see. Building something to less than 2% accuracy is something that I *know* is beyond my skill level, but I'll report on other calculations as I run through them.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:39 am
by mhd
Ah, worse (better!) than I imagined. I actually used the wrong common interval in the calculation. Should have been 23.5 inches, rather than 23. This gives an even better match to Jacques stated value.

DWL (me): 235" = 19' 7"
10 stations
CI (me): 23.5"

A_wp (me): 81.107639 ft^2
A_wp (Jacques): 80.945417 ft^2

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 4:37 pm
by mhd
Some more info...

VG23 designed displacement at DWL: 3750 lbs
VG23 measured displacement at DWL from my lines: 3780 lbs

As quoted by Jacques, the designed displacement includes sails, rig, crew, stores, winches etc. etc., but NOT outboard or fuel.

Jacques also said the boat should actually be raced closer to 3100 lbs. Displacement for cruising would likely be ~4000 lbs. It will be interesting to see where the boat sits in the water when she is eventually finished.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:31 pm
by rick berrey
Will the skirt factor in with the W/L or disp ?

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:14 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:31 pm Will the skirt factor in with the W/L or disp ?
Hi Rick,

Transom and skirt are both above the waterline when the boat is sitting at rest. They don't affect anything unless the boat is heeled over at which point they dip below the waterline at one side - and provide extra buoyancy and waterline length. I'm yet to get to that part of the stability calculations...takes a fair bit of time by pencil and paper and I'm not set up for CAD yet.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:31 pm
by mhd
Can't afford to get some measurements wrong. Gap between Bulkhead C and D is exactly 18" on plan. Toilet width is exactly 18".

I'll extended the gap between C and D to almost 19" when the bulkheads are fixed in their final position...some parts of the boat are more important than others...

Currently the toilet bowl will still intersect the stringers, but this will be less of an issue the further the bowl is located from the bottom of the boat. A quick estimate indicates it can be raised by between 4 and 6 inches vertically, without headroom being an issue.

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:05 pm
by OrangeQuest
Looks like you have enough room over the head for a small, shallow shelf or something. Wow. It is really starting to look like a boat now!

Nice work.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:25 am
by Jeff
Nice work Mick, really making good progress!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:21 am
by mhd
OrangeQuest wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:05 pm Looks like you have enough room over the head for a small, shallow shelf or something. Wow. It is really starting to look like a boat now!

Nice work.
Thanks. Yes, small shelf or locker for toiletries or something. The plans suggest shelves between almost all bulkheads, as they also double as strengthening longitudinal "beams" in various places.

We're spending a *lot* of time trying to figure out where everything will go even before the build is complete. There are so many things to think about and different options, and some things can only be figured out when the various parts are finished. An incentive to keep at it.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:21 am
by mhd
Jeff wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:25 am Nice work Mick, really making good progress!!! Jeff
Thanks Jeff. Going well up to now. One step at a time!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:01 pm
by mhd
Boat is 3/5ths sanded inside. Bulkheads A-E are ready to tape in permanently. Bulkheads F, G, H are almost there finally too.

Laminating ply to the bulkheads (to support the deck) took longer than I expected, but I'm happy with the result. Most of the time was spent rounding/sanding them to a decent shape inside the cabin so we'll not be cracking our heads too painfully every time we're in there.

When everything is fitted I'm not sure whether to put a 4oz sheet of cloth over everything that isn't already glassed (bulkheads, berths, seats, etc). The cabin will then be more durable and protected against abrasion, but more glass also means more weight. Even so, I'm pretty much 90% in favour of it. Don't want to cut corners after all the work up to now.

Stringers in next week I hope. With all the bulkheads shortly after. At least that is the plan!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:08 pm
by Jeff
Excellent Mick, have a good weekend!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:47 pm
by Jaysen
Glass wear surfaces. Paint/gel coat only the non-wear. You don’t need the weight of glass I’d there’s no benefit. The same is true of extra resin. Keep it light as possible.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 2:48 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:47 pm Glass wear surfaces. Paint/gel coat only the non-wear. You don’t need the weight of glass I’d there’s no benefit. The same is true of extra resin. Keep it light as possible.
I'll have a think when the cabin is finished. Not a lot of extra weight, but as you say, it all adds up.

Other things to think about now - outboard just arrived!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:36 pm
by rick berrey
My 2 cents . White gel coat weight cant be much more or less than a extra coat of epoxy , S glass , and paint . 3oz S glass is not going to cost much more that 4oz E and is a little lighter and stronger . While I agree you should keep it lite , I think long term a little extra glass and epoxy will pay off

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 6:20 pm
by Jaysen
Properly done, you can get a finished surface from gel on ply with the weight of just straight epoxy but with smooth surface.

1. Spray or roll first coat very thin (use styrene at 20-30%) with no wax
2. Roll second coat with duratech 904-001.
3. Spray or final coat with 904-001 and 5-10% styrene

Go light with the catalyst to get longer roll/spray time. Be careful with the final coat to avoid sagging. It will level if you have the thinning and additive right. shouldn’t need any sanding.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:02 pm
by mhd
Hi Rick/Jaysen,

Yeah, horses for courses. I could/should calculate just how much weight it would be to do the bulkheads and other non-wearing surfaces in cloth vs just paint. I have the areas on a spreadsheet somewhere...

That said, it is anything other than a sealing roll of epoxy+paint, it will be 4oz cloth with primer+paint which I already ordered with the original ply+materials order and that I'll use on the other parts of the interior that do get wear. No experience with gel and it didn't cross my mind for the interior - in my head I'd always linked it with the exterior. I'm sure all methods will work of course.

Have a good weekend all.

Cheers,

Mick

PS I unpacked the outboard - looks great :-)

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:21 pm
by Jaysen
Congrats on the outboard. My “new to me” outboard mounting was one of the more exciting days for me.

My preference for gel in this application is the easy smooth finish with minimal material.

If it were me, and I had primer paint already in hand, I’d actually use a slow hardener, warm resin (to make it as viscous as possible) and use that for a super thin sealer coat. Same plan but add spheres for a fairing compound if you have rough surface, then Prime and paint. Spray the primer/paint if you can to get a smoother finish. I’d only consider roll/brush for Quantum but I’m decidedly biased.

Keep in mind that the interior is HARD TO CLEAN. Smooth surfaces (including your fillets) make it so much nicer. It’s also the part you get to stare at and rub on when you aren’t above deck. Every imperfection seems to magnify when you’re wet, sunburned, and out of rum.

I’m sure this isn’t new to you. Laying out my thoughts for others that may read this later.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:37 pm
by mhd
Well, a lot of this stuff *is* new to me. But I'm learning as I go. Good to have different opinions and thoughts, especially since your Helms 24 isn't too different in size to the VG23. And good to write things down for others as you suggest - I spent a *lot* of time reading this forum, and others, before I finally decided to start building.

The VG23 cabin, when built, will have plenty of extra work put in to get a good finish - at least that is the plan currently. Much of the rest of the boat is hidden behind lockers or under berths and I'm not going to go too crazy with finishing those areas.

The boat is one thing but things would get really serious if we run out of rum. In such a situation something has gone *really* badly wrong. I am thinking about a modification to the boat that will become apparent if I can get it to work...

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:54 pm
by Jaysen
The Helms was my compromise with the boss. “You aren’t building a boat that big!” I don’t blame her.

Stuff buried behind panels should get bilge paint. Even on production hulls out of molds, they don’t do more than a sloppy bilge paint. Give it a clean coat of epoxy.

If you have a high wear area give it some glass. An area like chain locker, give it some 12oz (maybe 2 layers) and then paint because you won’t be nice to it. Make sure you cover any area likely to get smashed (or stabbed or ground or … ). If it’s an area that will never see any wear just the bilge paint. There is room for some interpretation here. If you have a designated hanging locker and you’ll put shoes in the bottom… eh, I’d skip glassing it.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 9:56 pm
by mhd
Boat is completely sanded, washed down twice, and ready for the stringers and bulkheads fitting. Some progress on the final bulkheads also.

Bulkheads B and D are in simply to hold the stringers in place. Will tab them in first, and then bulkheads. Made a list of things NOT TO FORGET before the bulkheads are fixed in place. i.e. limber holes in the correct places, double-check all bulkheads diagonals, confirm spacing for centreboard and head, etc. etc. etc.

Boat will look a bit more complete when everything is inside. And I'll have a bit more space to work also. Looking forward to having this part finished and then start on berths and the cockpit sole, etc.

Cheers,

Mick

PS Just stumbled on this site. Some very beautiful boats to oogle over - all sorts of stunning classic craft, from large to small. Maybe a future project for someone?

https://woodenships.co.uk/sailing-yachts-for-sale/

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 1:45 pm
by mhd
Glassed in the starboard stringer with 6" biaxial then 10" biaxial on top. Super-stiff and looks good. A few more days to get the other side done then I'll post some photos. Really looking forward to getting the bulkheads in now.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:40 pm
by Jeff
Mick, Get us some photos when you have time!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:54 pm
by mhd
Jeff wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:40 pm Mick, Get us some photos when you have time!! Jeff
Took a couple of photos of efforts from the last few days.

Visitors coming at the weekend so I had to get rid of all the ply bulkheads off the deck. Deck will now need painting before winter...one more job. Anyway, a lot of work the last few days, but all done now - bulkheads completed except for final shaping of the roof camber. I've rounded over almost everything, including the lower part of the roof-beam supports, in case I decide to glass.

All good. All bulkheads test-fitted, and ready to install. Bulkhead F is shown below. On Jacques' original design this was the end of the cabin - however, I changed the design to extend the deck back to bulkhead G over the port and starboard cockpit seats. The hatch and companionway locations are unchanged at Bulkhead F. Doing this allows two quite large extra internal storage spaces (top two holes), while also reducing cockpit volume with a bridgedeck as recommended (useful for offshore safety). Our feet will go though the bottom holes from the midships bunks.The top starboard space will contain a relocated slide-out alcohol stove (cooking nearer the hatch seems sensible) plus personal storage. The port space is not defined yet, but it will certainly have a slide-out (chart?) table at the bottom.

The bottom central hole in the bulkhead is fitted for a hatch - and will store a pair of oars and other long stuff up under the cockpit sole (almost 8' max length).

I've not got a good plan for companion way steps up out of the cabin - too high to get up easily. Perhaps a flip down step or two?

I've also included a fisheye shot of the plan for the transom skirt (currently only port side wood cut). The rudder will pivot in the wedge central region which will be cut out, and the outboard will be hung off the (reinforced) port skirt. I marked out various options but think I settled on minimum of 45 degrees each side, even if it looks less on the perspective-distorted photo. There is plenty of room. Transom hasn't been rounded over yet - I may change the final shape, and also the topsides will be cut back to the top of the transom in an also-yet-to-be-decided shape...

Okay enough for now. Still plenty of things to work on, and think about.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:36 am
by mhd
More progress. Both stringers are in now. Two layers of 12 oz biax, 6 inch with 10 inch over that for each one - very stiff as a result. Sanded and feathered the tape today and had a clean up.

I then added an extra bulkhead near the bow between bulkheads A and B - this is to create an additional watertight collision bulkhead near the bow. It is under the V-berth and really just dividing up the comparment up there, but with the intention of also increasing structural strength and stiffness at the bow also. I read that many fibreglass boats (production and one-offs) that have suffered damage (and survived) duing poor weather tend to show damage in the bow area that occurs when beating into the wind and slamming hour after hour. A bit of extra stiffness (and weight) in that area won't hurt in my opinion. Secured with one layer of 12 oz 6 inch biaxial. You can see it fitted in the pic below. I'm not using foam anywhere on the boat, but most compartments will be watertight with access via screw hatches. Probably not 100% perfectly watertight, but the compartments won't instantly fill up if water does enter the cabin.

Also I figured out onboard storage for the outboard, under the cockpit seats, through the now extended bulkhead G, and with the propeller under the end of the port berth. That thing is a real pain to lift as it is so bulky and awkward, and it is a tight fit, but I can just about manage it - not sure that will be the case when on the water though... I'll probably fit some kind of plywood "cradle" in that locker so I can secure the outboard in there, and tie it dow via padeyes to make sure it can't move when underway. The port seat locker is going to need a large hatch to fit the outboard through and I wanted to avoid making it myself, but I doubt I'll have a choice in this instance.

I'm starting the bulkhead installation from F (almost the highest point of the deck) and working towards the bow. The F bulkhead is now in fixed place with temporary screws and is straight, plumb and level. I've checked diagonals from bow and from transom and all is good. It will be fitted permanently tomorrow. Once it is in I will set up some string lines from the a screw at the bow back aft to various points on bulkhead F and then the camber of the other bulkheads will be aligned with those as guides. Will post a pic in future with the setup - it seems to make sense to me although it wouldn't be strictly necessary if I'd not increased the height of the deck and stuck wtih the original plans and dimensions.

I've also cut the port cockpit seat and will laminate tomorrow. Plans are for 3/8" ply but I'm going to laminate 2x 1/4" as previous builder of the VG20 (Justin) said his seats flexed when walked on and I'd like to avoid that. Same for the cockpit sole. More weight again. I want to build as light as possible but not at the expense of flexing in the parts of the boat that get the most use. Plans specify 1/4 inch ply for the deck also (!), which sounds fine if I was racing, but I'm going with 3/8" for there and will try and not jump up and down on it too much...

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:02 am
by pee wee
Lots of thought going into every inch of her, I like that! Good progress.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:09 am
by Jeff
Nice progress Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:51 am
by mhd
Thanks Hank/Jeff. Much appreciated.

Just finishing my morning cup of tea and will make a start on the day's work...

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:06 pm
by mhd
Hardest day up to now, but Bulkhead F is glassed in. Long long day, hot in the garage, sticky, cramped, climbing over the bulkhead far too many times in order to do the two sides. But it is done. 6 inch 12 oz biax on all sides, plus 10 inch wide also on the parts that touch the hull bottom. The other bulkheads should be easier in comparison as they have less complexity and C, D, and E don't get glassed to the hull floor until the keel goes in.

Also test-fitted the laminated port seat in the cockpit and prepared Bulkhead C for glassing in. All fine. Sides of the port skirt are also attached on the transom now with small fibreglass pieces. Looks good but still needs cutting to an exact size - also need to make up something solid to attach the outboard to - I've got ideas about how I am going to do that, so no big problem - just work and time.

Not sure I can face another day like today without an easier day first. Will probably cut and laminate the starboard cockpit seat instead and some sanding.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:27 am
by OrangeQuest
Really looking good!
Long long day, hot in the garage, sticky, cramped, climbing over
And reminds me of when I was doing my glass and epoxy work in the hot warehouse. By hot I mean in the 3 digit hot. I would start working before the sun come up and the baking begins. Lower to mid 80s was bearable. Nothing like sweat dripping on uncured epoxy. Add to the heat, the stress of getting the epoxy work done before it starts to kick. Only nice thing is the epoxy pours almost like water, so mixes fast and easy and soaks into the cloth fast too.

Our 10-forecast is lows are 80deg to a high of 100+ and the feels like will be 108 deg. Add that it will also be 80% humidity in the afternoons. Talk about air frying but with steam.
Long sleeve fishing shirts work well, not cotton. They protect your skin from the epoxy and glass. Wicks the moisture so they get soaked fast with less dripping. After the epoxy work, stand in front of a fan and the moisture in the shirt cools you down....mentally you have to believe it does. :roll:

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:29 pm
by mhd
OrangeQuest wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:27 am Really looking good!
Long long day, hot in the garage, sticky, cramped, climbing over
And reminds me of when I was doing my glass and epoxy work in the hot warehouse. By hot I mean in the 3 digit hot. I would start working before the sun come up and the baking begins. Lower to mid 80s was bearable. Nothing like sweat dripping on uncured epoxy.
Gulp!!! And there's me complaining in 80s temps and only 50% humidity in the garage!!! Can't imagine it much hotter than it is currently. Currently it is bearable - just. I do have first hand experience of sweat dripping on uncured epoxy and that is as far down the road as I wish to go :-) NM is hot, but it is a dry heat compared to TX.

Spent the morning clearing up from yesterday, getting ready to fix C in place with some small tabs of putty + glass, and some of the other innumerable small tasks, which are legion. This afternoon, I'm giving myself a break and will spend some time on the unfinished stability calcs.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:41 pm
by mhd
Decent progress over the last few days. Bulkhead C is in and so is the port side of Bulkhead G - this will have instruments/chart-plotter on and I've been sketching out rough locations and seeing how it will work when in the cockpit. I also put port/starboard smaller bulkheads in between where H will go and the transom. Similar to the bow, this is to provide more rigidity and more water-tight compartments in case of any hull damage. You can see that H is still to cut down so are the topsides - I'm almost at the point of finalising the line of the cockpit topside from G to the transom.

The last major bulkheads are D and E but I'm holding off on D until I've built up a platform for the head and worked out the plumbing - easier with more space. I'm using a lot more epoxy/putty than I imagined glassing in the bulkheads,

I also laminated wood up for the mast step (mahogany). The plywood pile is almost gone except for eight sheets of 3/8" for the deck plus a second layer on the bottom of the hull, plus a few pieces of 1/4" for inside lockers.

Over the weekend I plan to do the starboard side of G and also finalise the port skirt compartment so I can test-fit the outboard...

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:55 am
by pee wee
mhd wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:41 pm
The plywood pile is almost gone except for eight sheets of 3/8" for the deck plus a second layer on the bottom of the hull, plus a few pieces of 1/4" for inside lockers.
Are you saying that you will double the plywood on the bottom of the hull? Is that per plans, or to add ruggedness?

If so, have you figured out how to get a tight bond between the layers?

I'm enjoying watching your build come together!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:02 pm
by mhd
pee wee wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:55 am
mhd wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:41 pm
The plywood pile is almost gone except for eight sheets of 3/8" for the deck plus a second layer on the bottom of the hull, plus a few pieces of 1/4" for inside lockers.
Are you saying that you will double the plywood on the bottom of the hull? Is that per plans, or to add ruggedness?

If so, have you figured out how to get a tight bond between the layers?

I'm enjoying watching your build come together!
Thank Hank. I appreciate your interest. I think it has been going okay up to now. Still lots to think about but just one step at a time and try and hold the entire design in my mind somehow so that the stages are all done in a logical order. But it is hard to think or concentrate on much else on a build like this. It takes up a vast amount of thinking time - at least for me!!!

Yep, the second hull layer is in the plans - two layers of 3/8" (9mm) ply. Finish as much of the interior as possible, add the deck, then turn over and bond a second layer to the hull bottom. I'm not sure the reason not to laminate prior to that, but probably bending the panels when setting up the hull shape would be much harder at that stage.

Anyway, as for how to do it, in "Devlin's Boat Buliding" he has a method used on cold-moulding boats up to 80' to add in a second hull layer. It invovles drilling holes in the top layer (to avoid air bubbles between the layers), and then numerous temporary screws (or staples) through pre-drilled holes to ensure a tight bond. These are removed post-cure and filled in. I drilled some holes in that way for laminating the transom (in order to practice the method) and it worked well. I didn't bother with the holes when laminating the cockpit seats since they are smaller areas and just used weight. Since the bottom is practically flat, I may be able to just go wtih a LOT of weight for the hull bottom, but I'll see about that when the boat is flipped.

Jacques recommended Devlin's book, along with "Understanding Boat Design" by Ted Brewer and "Designing Power and Sail" by Arthur Edmunds. There are others but all three have been useful to me as an amateur boat builder using stitch-and-glue. For the theoretical aspects I'm on with the Westlawn courses. I also use Skene, and Laarson, and "Elements of Boat Strength" by Gerr, but there are parts of all these three that, in my opinion, aren't explained particularly well. I like references to the actual source materiral for statements about materials and strength, and all three are weak (in my opinion) in this respect. I'm starting to understand/suspect that the lack of source material in some areas means there are plenty of "rules of thumb" that still abound in boat-building, where there have never been rigourous tests to determine the merits of particular components or aspects of the build. Probably some things are still done simply because that is the way they've always been done, or because that is simply the designers' preference, or that is the way they were taught?

I don't know much. Maybe I'm wrong about all that? It probably doesn't matter too much because all designers use very large safety factors into their design at all stages, and also boats aren't all coming apart at the seams on a daily basis. The designers added the safety factors so they don't get into legal trouble if the boat can't survive the conditions of use. And when I'm building the boat myself, despite my brain telling me to resist, I can't help adding in my own extra "safety factors" when building some parts. No different to the desginers need for peace of mind. So I think "Ah, will probably be stronger/better if I just add in an extra bulkhead just here". Etc. More weight, slower boat, probably wasn't needed. But then again, it is my boat, and that is why I'm building it myself. If I'm sailing offshore in a blow I know I'll feel better about it because it somehow I've done something pro-active myself to make sure the boat holds up. In terms of engineering, it is very likely over-engineering. In terms of mental peace-of-mind, it is something that can't be avoided - for me at least.

Ah, I'm rambling. Better get moving and do a solid day's work...

Have a good weekend,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:01 pm
by mhd
Made progress with the starboard part of bulkhead G and also glassed up the port side skirt so I can test-fit the outboard. And also cut down the port topside to its final (I think) shape.
An external rubrail/gunwale will be used to define the precise sheer line from bow to transom, and that will also be used to help in glassing over the topside of the hull itself and protect the endgrain of the ply: rounded and glassed over.

The other thing I did was to start planing the cabin roof beams to their final shape. Moving around inside and it really is starting to feel like an actual vessel now. D and E still need glassing in their final positions

Took some photos but no space in the garage to get any really decent pics. I tried with the fisheye lens but I'm not sure it helps. One photo is the view from where someone would sit at the tiller. The cockpit seems nice and compact and there should be no problem seeing all the instruments from there. With the additon of the extended Bulkhead G the cockpit is reduced in size from
almost 9' to just over 6' in length, there is still room to lay down (sleep) in the cockpit if the cabin is too warm and the waves are being friendly.

All seems to have been going well the last few weeks, but if anyone sees me doing anything really dumb then please let me know!!!

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:24 pm
by mhd
Working on installing Bulkhead H today at aft of the boat. Hull bottom is most curved at this point.

To paraphrase a certain fictional character. "To knock over one full cup of 6oz of mixed resin may be seen as a misfortune. To knock over a second seems like carelessness".

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 10:53 pm
by mhd
Bulkhead H is in and done. View from astern forward into the cockpit. I also cut down topsides port and starboard now, plus 4 inches either side of the companionway in Bulkhead G so the cabin doors in Bulkhead F have some space to swing open into.

So this is it. I went with topsides sloping aft diagonally from Bulkhead G to the transom rather than lower horizontal topsides for the entire cockpit as was the case in Jacques' original design. A little more protection in the cockpit at the cost of some extra windage. Oh, and probably doesn't look as asthetically pleasing, but ho-hum. You can see the shape of the seat-backs now where the coaming will go. Looking into the cockpit there will be a large chart plotter on a remote screen (behind a bolted polycarbonate window) in the port bulkhead and a compass, depth gauge, wind gauge and speed log to starboard. All will be easily visible from the tiller, even for my eyes. Somewhere there will be an inclinometer but not totally fixed on the precise setup yet. Red and/or white lights on a slightly overhanging deck will illuminate the instruments.

Cockpit seats are 6'2" long. I'm wanting to make them as wide as possible so we can sleep in there on hot days, but a compromise with back-rest comfort when sitting also. Still not 100% sure of the dimensions but will test once the seats are rough-fitted.

Also tested the outboard mount fitting on the skirt. Needs an extra 1/2" ply on the aft skirt panel so the clamps tighten up tightly. DWL is almost exactly at the level of the anti-ventilation plate as currently shown below - the laser level is on, but the flash has washed it out. Regardless, I'd like to get it some inches lower so will have to cut down the skirt a few inches - I'd always guessed this was likely based on rough estimates so not a major issue. Engine is easy to tilt, etc., so all good. Once I have the level correct, I'll fill with oil and fire up for the first test and some time running in.

Only one gripe that I've heard repeated in dozens of other posts. This was the smallest auxilliary engine with the longest shaft length I could find. I'm still cutting down the skirt (which is already lower than the transom!) to get the prop in the water. Why the heck doesn't a manufacturer build a double-extra-long shaft outboard for the sailing market. Power from 3 to 9 hp with up to 30" or even 36" shaft. I'm pretty sure they would clean up on orders. Tohatsu is the only game in town for even 25" shaft at low power (as far as I'm aware). Hmmm....well maybe most folk buy production boats, so there isn't really the market I'm thinking of? But I think I remember David Gerr complaining about the same issue in "The Nature of Boats" or someone else perhaps. I'm not really an experienced sailor but It just can't be sensible to be forced into having such a low transom in order to fit auxillary power to a sailboat. I wish I'd got the balls fortitude to simply use oars and skip the outboard completely. Or to be confident that a light-weight electric outboard would do the job and be reliable. Maybe in future eh?

Two more weeks of shipwright duties and then a nice long holiday to look forward to.

Cheers,

Mick

PS I am using resin at a crazy rate fitting the bulkheads. Sure, my carpentry could have been neater in places, but it isn't soooooooo bad. To build the fillets up to the same depth as the ply (3/8") is using a LOT of resin. Is this normal? I can already predict I'll be adding ~100 lbs of weight to the boat as a result. Reid/Jeff, expect another order for System 3 epoxy in the near future!!!

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:44 am
by piperdown
I think everyone uses more epoxy than they expect in the beginning.
Regardless, I'm enjoying watching your progress.
Just bought a new sander and really need to get back on my own project. Seeing the postings certainly does motivate me.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:12 am
by rick berrey
Sometimes when you are about to run out of material that phase of the project is almost complete :D

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:32 pm
by mhd
Rick/Eric: Yeah, I just need to try and be extra careful with the epoxy - I ordered more...

Anyway, some progress for today...

Nice to actually walk around in the cockpit. I also put a sheet of ply on the bulkheads to test curvature for the deck - the beams still aren't the precise shape needed but it looks like it is going to be okay.

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 6:07 pm
by Jaysen
Hey Mick. You asked for it.

I've been following your build. The VG23 is a bit larger than the 580 (5.8m ~ 19'). I'm kind of glad I had to pause because I think I would do things a bit different if not racing. Some of this may sound like me rehashing some comments I made earlier in the thread. Some of this is new ideas I've developed through other things of late. One or two might be considered a critique of your build but it's more of a thought based on my experience than a real issue.

1. I would epoxy below the water line/bootstripe and polyester/gelcoat everything else.
2. Weight is the biggest enemy. Get rid of anything isn't structural, makes the boat move, or safety related.
3. Windage when you don't want it is more dangerous than water ingress as it prevents you from controlling the boat.
4. Based on #3, protect the companionway without windage.
5. A raft in the boat is a lot harder to get in the water than a raft on the deck.
6. Motors are a lot harder to move when the boat and water are angry.
7. Reduce the things that move as much as possible. Ex: dual/split main instead of traveler, everything tied down.
8. If it can trip you, it will hurt you. Keep all walkways clear.
8.5. Never assume that a walkway you planned is going to be available when you need it.
8.6. Never assume the available walkway is clear.
9. Try to do all electronics battery/wireless to ensure as many watertight bulkheads as possible. ALL ELECTRONICS
10. Assume no electronics will be available on board. Learn to navigate/sail that way. Set the boat up that way. Then, when it happens, just shrug and carry on.

Back to building a VG23...

I've pontificated on gel vs epoxy/paint already. I'll spare you that.

I'd make sure you have a few watertight bulkheads. The 580 makes 3 using the mast frame and companion frame as the segments. In addition to that, the forward compartment has a crash box. I would not foam the crash box. Or if you foam it, put something in to keep voids... like empty water bottles. That gets you a lot of weight savings and buoyancy.

Any big piece of wood that doesn't need to be solid... reduce it to minimum-sized or skeletonized frames. Lose bunks for hammocks. Go to stow bags as much as possible with collapsable/stackable hard-sided organizers. If you think about it, if you have no "defined storage", all space is storage. While this seems like a "race optimization" thing, look at boats prior to glass production boats... big open stowage that doubled as sleeping for crew. I first noticed this when looking at a Herreshoff. Once you were out of the galley... Spartan.

While I like your comings, the windage... eh. It might not be a problem. That said, in a blow, a dodger can be a problem. Not sure I would do it. The nice thing about building your own boat is that you can change it later. Use a lifting hatch with positive locks on the lift to create the screen when the hatch is open. When the blow hits, you can open "minimally" and reduce water ingress while still being able to vent a bit.

I will never have a boat without an externally accessible raft again. Not sure how you will do that in the VG, but I'd give up part of the aft seat and have to pull out the transom. I'd also have massive open scuppers from the cockpit out the transom and two "lightning" steps in the tiller. This will 1) evac massive water from the cockpit; 2) make a nice ladder for re-entry.

Just for "craps and laughs", put on some skis, fill the cockpit with bearings, golf balls, pool balls, bowling balls, wrap your head in 4mil black plastic, wrap that in tape, then mount the motor on the transom from the planned storage. The skis may be excessive, so replace them with some 12" planks of ply. Now imagine that with the hull pitching and rolling 12-25deg. And before you think "that will never happen". It does. Typically when you are dealing with needing to keep the boat pointing the right way but the wind is kicking your a$$ (hint, drogues are your friend). Make sure you can work that motor access when the fan is flinging the fecal right into your face. I love the idea, but for transat... I'm not sure I'd do it.

Anything that can move, above deck and below, will move when you don't want it too. And it won't move when you do want it to. So eliminate all needed movement. On a small boat, lose the traveler. Use a multiposition main block on the deck. Get rid of all sliding components except the whisker pole on the mast and the jib carts. Reduce winches to 2 working and 2 snubbing via jamb cleats. Since you don't have a conventional companion way washboard, run all lines central to the cabin top minimizing exposure to water on critical components and clearing deckspace for working and sailchanges. Below deck, attach everything to mini-frame mounted tie downs. Label everything and make day, week and month bags so you aren't moving things until you absolutely need to do so. freshwater MUST BE SECURED as it is the most precious resource off shore. it is also ballast so make it easy to move with multiple securing locations.

KEEP WALKWAYS CLEAR. Never let line accumulate on the decks. Coil and secure. Never let equipment or tools block passages. Take the 30-120 seconds to secure things. No one gets lost at sea because of secure footing on board.

Electronics are overrated. Lose it all. Then only add what is absolutely mandated. Then get things that can be powered by AA or AAA batteries. Ex... all your nav lights. Every hole you poke in that hull is a chance to sink. remember all that wood we cut out earlier... this is why. so what if you lose a bow nav light in a storm? $25 replaces it and you are 100% certain no water got below because there ARE NO HOLES IN THE DECK OR HULL. They weigh next to nothing so spares are nearly free to store. Same with the below deck lighting. Use those press on/off things closet add-on things. No holes because no chase tubes == no leaks.

My two exceptions to this:
* get an AIS transmitter and a battery to run it. turn it on at ngith and if you see a ship during the day. If you don't see a ship, up on deck and use a solar charger to top it off. This is non-negotiable to me. Look for one that doesn't need a separate chart plotter to get position and direction data. They exist.
* get a depth sounder that you can hang off the rail or transom when you are inshore. These can be found battery powered.

If you are ocean sailing, dump the chart plotter. Just get an old tablet and load charts on it. Use a handheld GPS (could be the tablet) to get coords and plan your day. When you get to a place that you think you need a platter, look for the channel markers. that or use a small fishing unit. Folks traversed the oceans without them until very very recently. Some of us are dumb enough to plan on doing it that way even now.

Anyway... that's the tip of that iceberg. I like my luxury, but on a small sailboat, especially one going across an ocean, luxury and "stay alive" converge real dang fast. My approach on my Helms 24 is completely different since it will never be more than 50mi offshore.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 8:11 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2023 6:07 pm Hey Mick. You asked for it.
Cheers mate,

That is a whole lot of info and I appreciate it and your time - a whole lot of things to think about and opinions are good - they are usually held for a very good reason. Its obvious you've thought about this seriously for a long time!! Some of the ideas I've already got fixed in my head, some of it I haven't and am still debating what to do. One thing is for sure - there won't be any instant ocean crossings until we're confident in the boat and ourselves. That will take time. But once the boat is in the water that is what we aim to be doing. But because we'll spend some time first doing all that, the boat can't be just a bare ocean crossing design to the exclusion of all else - spartan is okay, but it has to keep us at least a bit comfortable during the learning curve. And when we arrive at our destination - wherever that may be. I think there is middle route and that is what I'm building to. Hence the outboard, etc. Useful for in/out of a marina and redundancy while we're on the learning curve, but be assured it won't ever be going on a passage - too heavy/awkward. And I will certainly cut down the coaming in a heartbeat if the boat suffers from control issues in a blow.

Most of my build to date is trying not to rule out options without cause when I can keep alive many things if I'm flexible and build for various configurations.

Some other thoughts I've been mulling over and some comments on what you wrote - but be aware some of these aren't fully committed to:

Twin head sails: converted to that idea after reading John Letchers excellent book on self-steering.
Possible temporary inner forestay
I expect things to break : "navigator" is currently learning celestial navigation : she's better at it than me.
Totally agree on multiple watertight bulkheads! No foam on this boat.
Totally agree on the scuppers. The bigger the better.
Agree on minimum holes in hull. I wanted zero but now main two will be seawater inlet and waste outlet for the head. I wish I could go without but required holding tank for some countries.
Agree on sea-anchor/drogue. Jacques mentioned old motorbike tyres towed from 150' chain!
I could mount the liferaft on the rail but again windage. My inital thought was in the bridge-deck compartment, easily accessible from cockpit. Always open when sailing.
The boat is very small - there already isn't much room to move much in the cabin or the cockpit and the centreboard case isn't fitted yet, never mind anything else!
Padeyes to tie down hard stuff.
Redundancy. I have two depth sounders - super light - claim to work through fibreglass hull bottom - will test when in water.
I'm building my own watertanks to fit under the bunks - low down and midships. Approx. 12 imperial gallons each. At least I'm going to try. That job is coming up soon. Then put one in the car, 3/4 full, and keep it there tied down for six months to see if it leaks...if so I'll buy but no storage locations are standard sizes so $$$. Jerry cans tied down for additional water.
Chartplotter is non-negotiable for me. It won't be just ocean sailing. Lots of coastal comes first. Position always plotted on paper too. I like maps a lot. I like knowing where I am. Plus I got it working and want to test it out.
AIS transmitter, wasn't on my list - power??? Probably AIS receiver/VHF combination plus radar reflector. Paper charts also, plus sextant etc.
I've done rough calcs for power consumption for 'minimum' and 'would-be-nice alternatives'. Both should be workable. As should sailing with zero power if necessary.
Batteries for electronics. Never considered it in detail. That is a good idea.
Day/Week/Month bags - excellent idea!
Stowbags as much as possible. Agreed!
VG23 has "lockers" that are part of the structure of the boat - they are nice for storage.

Questions:

"...skip the traveller. Use a multiposition main block on the deck." ? AGREED!! But I have been wracking my brains on how to do something like this. A traveller across the cockpit will be grim but I can't figure an alternative that isn't worse. With the hatch there is precious little deck to attach anything to aft of the mast. Can you explain???
Have you tried self-steering on one of the variations of sheet-to-tiller?
Have you sailed with a solent rig (twin parallel forestays?). I want to try this.
Do you use NavTex? Worth it?
Dual/split main? What did you have in mind? I have a secret idea (that I'm sharing with you) to mount a mast-step in the skirt to test out a very small mizzen (8-10') and see how it affects the balance. Sailing in a blow with jib and mizzen only? It might work, it might not. Nothing lost if it is a bust. SOME of the things I'm doing with the build are there as tests. They aren't set in stone. If they don't work they will be changed...

A few weeks ago I had an email from Brian in the UK (who built a VG23). He had the deck in the water (>30 deg) in 20 knots, and reported the boat was loving it! :-) Gives me confidence in seaworthiness at least!!

Anyway, I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. My own hands-on sailing knowledge fits on a very small postage stamp. But I'm doing all I can to rectify that as fast as possibe. I hope you get your 580 (or whatever) plans back on track before too long also. Like you say, sometimes it is good to wait and think. 23' is small....18' is very small.

And don't worry about offending me or critiquing the build - I have a thick skin. And I *want* to be challenged because if I've thought about something and am wrong and can't defend why I've done something, then it is me to blame and I should be grateful for any help in educating me out of my errors! I did some teaching in the past and it is amazing how many people/students actually resent being educated when that is the very reason they are there in the first place...

Thanks again!!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 10:45 pm
by mhd
Glassed in Bulkhead E yesterday. Today I messed around building a level platform for the head (that can also be easily removed if needed) and also was trying to figure out where all the plumbing will go. I *think* I have a workable solution now.

Head waste into a small holding tank, and then via a Y valve to either seacock or deck pump-out. Sounds easy, but distance between bulkheads is only 18-19 inches which makes it difficult to fit it all in the space and still be possible to access everything. Anyway, it won't get fitted for quite a while, but whenever it is, some extensive testing will be needed with some clean water before it is used in anger...

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:15 pm
by mhd
Bulkheads B and D are fixed in place now with small fibreglass squares and putty. Will take a while to get them taped in fully but after that it will be just A left to go, and that will be done after the v-berth flat is in.

I also put a layer of 6oz cloth inside the port skirt and in two of the smaller cockpit lockers in places where they were still bare wood. A couple of the smaller cockpit lockers will be left open to store the fuel for the outboard, etc.

View from the v-berth at the bow, back into the cabin. plus the current state of the cockpit. I also rounded over four 8' lengths of 2"x1" that I'll cut down and use as cleats to support the cockpit seats. etc. Fitting these will be another job in the not-too-distant future.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 5:30 pm
by mhd
All bulkheads full glassed in now (except A). Boat is very very rigid already, even without the cockpit seats or berths or deck.

I've been glassing with 4 or 6oz cloth inside the port cockpit lockers, plus putting in wood cleats to fit those. All good. Starting to get to the point where decisions have to be made regarding exactly how the lockers will be organised and where some of the hardware is going to be fitted. Lots to think about - it keeps me awake at night.

Next big job will be starting on the deck beams, and hatch framing but in a few days we're off on a holiday trip for a couple of weeks, so things won't be changing much until I'm back.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 8:59 am
by Jeff
Great progress!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 4:04 pm
by mhd
Thanks Jeff.

Final state of play before three weeks of holiday.

The forecabin now has the extra compartment plus bulkhead B glassed in. The larger compartment will be sub-divided further - 2x batteries on port side, ice-box to starboard.

Image

I've cut hatches in the top of the port skirt also. One 8" for access and a 3" hatch that has a 2" mast partner glued inside (and a mast step still to be fitted on the bottom of the skirt). I want to explore how useful a very simple homemade mizzen mast would be in balancing the boat. If it isn't a success, not much lost. Mast will be homemade, ~10' high, and carry a paltry <20 sq ft of sail.

The top of the skirt compartment slopes aft so water will drain out (once I've cut some drain holes, and it is recessed down from the top of the skirt to allow the outboard to tilt forward out of the water when not in use. Starboard skirt top will almost certainly be level and not recessed.

Image

Also, I've prepared the port cockpit lockers ready to glue on the cleats to support the seat - they are held with temporary screws. Seats slope aft and outboard and I'll add in a small drain overboard once all is in so they shouldn't be too wet.

Image

The open hatch is for the outboard fuel and the shelf tilts inboard I'll include a limber hole so any water that does enter can exit into the cockpit also. I rounded and taped the edges earlier today and I'll add flat padeyes for webbing and a front strap/chain to stop any movement in the fuel tank when underway. Cockpit sole is sloped aft and will include its own multiple scuppers so it self-drains. There is also a 6" hatch to the compartment under the fuel although it won't be easy to get to. But at least there will be some kind of access to every part of the hull.

Image

Final pic shows the ply I cut to support the cabin sole. Oars/spars etc. will be stored under here with access through the rectangular hatch in the main cabin. Can probably squeeze in 7'6 in length. I did a quick test and it should be certainly be possible to maneauver with oars of that length by standing up at the rear of the cockpit and rowing.

Image

Anyway, that is all for now. I'll fit the cleats for the cockpit seat as soon as I'm back, and then the cockpit sole cleats which are also ready to go. Then it will be a repeat with matching hatches to starboard.

But first we're ready for our first trip "down under". Should have happened a few years ago but was cancelled due to COVID. So it is long overdue. Can't wait. At least it will be a chance to recce the entrance to Sydney harbour just in case we ever arrive there by water ;-)

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 9:15 am
by Jeff
Have a great trip Mick!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 4:25 pm
by mhd
Well, Sydney is a truly beautiful city. Always plenty going on in the harbour and enjoyed a great day at the maritime museum yesterday. Saw the replica HMB Endeavour (which has done its own circumnavigation) plus a lot of other boats/ships - naval and sailing and powerboats. They had a really great wooden-boat section. Could easily spend another day there to see everything.

View of Sydney harbour from the bridge just before sunset.

Image

HMB Endeavour (replica). The real thing was scuttled off Rhode Island in 1778...

Image

One other highlight was being able to go aboard "First Lady" - the boat that Kay Cottee did the first female non-stop circumnavigation on.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:27 am
by Jeff
Nice Mick, enjoy!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:38 am
by mhd
Had a good few days up near Brisbane and Stradbroke Island. Stunning scenery, the humpback whale migration, and fantastic meat pies. From the very small portion I've seen, Australia is a very beautiful and welcoming country.

A few more days then the drive back to Sydney for the flight home. Boat-building duties will resume soon.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:59 am
by Jeff
Sounds like a great trip Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:20 pm
by TomW1
Galad you are enjoying your trip Mick. Tom

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:01 pm
by mhd
Thanks Tom, Thanks Jeff.

Just got back home. Jet-lagged to high-heaven, but happy to see the boat is still here and I'm looking forward to cracking on with it. I'm still aiming for a launch some time in the latter half of next year, but only wiser heads will know if that is a reasonable target or not. It wouldn't be a major hassle if it takes longer - things generally take longer than expected, but I sketched out an estimated timeline and it should be achieveable. Currently I'm thinking my biggest headache will be the admin of getting the boat registered, transported to the coast for launch, and safely tucked away in a marina somewhere.

For the actual build the bits that are still somewhat fuzzy in my mind are turning the boat over and rigging. There will be other issues, I'm sure.

Still that is all in the future. A day or two to catch up on things here, and then back to it. I'll post updates as I go.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:58 pm
by mhd
Back to matters nautical. I glued on the port cockpit cleats earlier today. Tomorrow I'll remove the temporary screws and secure them further with some fibreglass tape over the lower edge - the cleats were rounded over on that edge before glueing. I'll post some photos of progress at some point.

Still jet-lagged so spent the early hours this morning calculating the diameter of any potential trial mizzen mast. Difficult to attach shrouds or stays but the sail area will be very low so an unsupported mast is viable. According to the formulae in Skene a solid or hollow wood mast (fir/pine/spruce) would be fine at 2.5" diameter even allowing for a large safety margin. Max area would be 20 sq ft if a mizzen sail and ~30 sq ft if a mizzen stay-sail could be rigged somehow. So, If it works and proves useful it will give a few more sail-plan options that should lower the heeling of the boat in increased wind (e.g. keep the mizzen up, reef in the main - move the CE lower). However, flying anything so far aft will change the boat balance, even with a small sail area, because it will move the CE further aft. By chance I increased the rudder width and size slightly when building that (also based on Jacques "offshore VG23" plans). Doing that will also move the CLR aft so maybe it won't be too different from the original balance . I plan to do the calculations for all this accurately at some point and if it is massively off, I could abandon the idea or more likely simply fit a larger skeg. However, because the rudder depth can be adjusted a bit (along with the depth the centreboard is set at) I don't foresee a problem. - just some tuning when in the water.

A yawl rig is only slightly less efficient than a sloop to windward (quoting figures given by Brewer and others), but is particularly useful for cruising in order to get the boat to balance and make self-steering more likely without the complication (and weight) of self-steering wind-vane gear. Anyway, that is the plan - perhaps it is a bit unusual on this type of boat, but we'll see if it works. I'm no expert but I haven't read anything that would really put a spanner in the works. Sure some extra weight, but so is a vane, and everything can be removed afterwards (excep the mast step). And at this stage I'm happy for the extra work and complications to keep the possibility open - trial and error. Please chip in if you have any thoughts on pros/cons etc.

It goes without saying that it is extra sad that the person I'd like to have asked about all this, and who's opinion I respected very much, isn't around.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:45 pm
by Jaysen
Jib sheet self steering with the VG23 planned COE would be smarter than modifying to a yawl. Unless you’ve done a lot of sailing (which I can’t recall if you have) I wouldn’t modify the rigging at all and would a stick to the designed plan.

Have fun

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:35 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:45 pm Jib sheet self steering with the VG23 planned COE would be smarter than modifying to a yawl. Unless you’ve done a lot of sailing (which I can’t recall if you have) I wouldn’t modify the rigging at all and would a stick to the designed plan.

Have fun
Hi Jaysen,

I certainly take on board what you say - if the designer thought it would be better rigged as a yawl, he would have designed it like that. Simpler for sure and almost certainly faster into the wind. And more of a conventional proven design (Serpentaire). Then again, being able to experiment is part of the fun of building your own boat, and I'm enjoying considering all possibilities.

Very little sailing experience - at least of the type this boat is planned for. Dinghys when I was a kid and some recent ASA courses for a week off California. But to be fair, the boat we're building is not planned for current sailing experience; rather on what (I hope) our level is in 12 or 24 months time after some time working up with coastal stuff. I read John Letcher's book on the self-steering that he figured out and used on his 20' boat on the passage to Hawaii and then back to California via Alaska in the 60s. Yes, I agree, sheet-to-tiller will be the aim and I have that in mind when building, but I like the potential different sail plans that a yawl gives - but only if it works. A similar passage to that described above is the goal before too long. So I'll do the calcs and will probably test out the mizzen as it isn't that much work. If it is too complicated or inefficient I''ll bin the idea.

How well does self-steering work on your boat?

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:35 pm
by Jaysen
On the ketch I sailed a bit (Shannon 37) it was mostly double reefed main/mizzen and furled jibs in the open. If any real sail work … just main/mizzen. Full keel boat. The only time the extra sail mattered was wide open, days on a heading with consistent wind that required no reefs. I never experienced that.

Racing a J30… triple reefed main, furler jib, super easy to sail and tweak sail area. Swap jibs between. 150, 120, 100 or full kite was the most extensive effort. That took us less than 120seconds.

Catalina 47 set up for cruising short handed. Roller main, dual roller jibs. Relatively infinite reefing. We tested jib wind steering in this with the emergency tiller. Was better than the b&g auto pilot.

1958? Contessa 27. 4x circumnavigated. 12x bidirectional transat. This all wood beauty had a boom based roller main. Dual hanked 7/8s jib stays 3/4 club footed cutter. The only wind steering she ever had was jib sheet steer. Not really jib as it was almost always done from the cutter per the owner. He’s the one who helped me figure out my…

Helms 24. Dual reefed main, split track furler jib with 120 loaded. Spent 20min with Jim from the contessa applying the theory and setting up an a extra snatch (my car tracks allow initial direction change). In a hugely wind shadowed channel (Port Royal Sound in Beaufort SC) it took me and Patrick (experienced sailor) 5min to balance the single reefed main and jib, rig the steering and get it set.

I will never pay for wind vane or autopilot unless required by SOR. This shit works.

I recommend using a combination of shock chord and surgical tubing. You need the extra stretch the tubing provides but higher winds want the shock chord stronger resistance. It’s also odd sitting lee side to steer. You get used to it fast.

You can play with this in any hull with a jib in the sail plan. Find some beat up pile in a barn and play with it. Not sure a rental will let you mess with sheet routing enough to make it work.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:01 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:35 pm On the ketch I sailed ...

You can play with this in any hull with a jib in the sail plan. Find some beat up pile in a barn and play with it. Not sure a rental will let you mess with sheet routing enough to make it work.
Thanks mate, Super-helpful. You have the experience - not me. As a pretty much novice on serious sailing, when I'm researching things I find there are so many options and opinions and very experienced die-hard adherent to almost every type of rig or sail plan or boat or whatever. I've read so much now, and I'm working through all the boat design theory with Westlawn, but theory only gets you so far - the main thing I need now is my own practical experience - hard to get on a regular basis in the middle of the desert in New Mexico!!!

I've no interest in racing, but cruising (offshore) is the dream...the reason I started building is to make it happen. I think it is possible to get the boat in the water in the next 12 months...we shall see.

Contessa 27 or 32? Either way I'm envious!!!!! The 32 is the dream. If I win the lottery it I'd have one built from scratch. But I suppose to win the lottery I'd have to buy a lottery ticket first ;-)

I really appreciate your comments. I might not follow everything you or anyone else recommends, but I take it all in and I fully appreciate the time take to comment. The sail plan for the VG23 is definitly cruising, rather than racing.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:05 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:35 pm Helms 24. Dual reefed main, split track furler jib with 120 loaded. Spent 20min with Jim from the contessa applying the theory and setting up an a extra snatch (my car tracks allow initial direction change). In a hugely wind shadowed channel (Port Royal Sound in Beaufort SC) it took me and Patrick (experienced sailor) 5min to balance the single reefed main and jib, rig the steering and get it set.
Good to hear!!! If it takes 100x 20 minutes I'll be happy!!!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:35 pm
by Jaysen
I really just want to sail places and see things. Mostly just sit in the middle of the ocean and marvel at it. My biggest issue is violent sea sickness and a wife that only asks that we do this together (not really a problem).

My dream boat… Hans Christian 37 cutter rigged (ketch). The ketch works on a 10ton boat as you don’t need as light a wind to stretch all the canvas. Also, it is weeks on a single heading crossing oceans … so yeah. Ketch works.

The program for us is 2yr Caribbean. Then transat east for 6mo west EU followed by transat west. Island hop back here before a trip through the Panama Canal and the start of the “big, dumb idea” over a pile of years. At least 3 in the pacific.

My racing was a way to get forced into being a better, more efficient, sailor. I also want to participate in a global solo circumnavigation race based on a one design, self built, 5.8m hull. I have license for hull number 4. I’ve missed the first transatlantic and may never build the boat. Kind of sucks but… worse things have happened.

If I were to give you one piece of gold advice, it would be this. Stop thinking and start sailing. All the theory and experience of others doesn’t mean much of it doesn’t fit your style. You won’t know what actually works for you until you have time on the water and find out what you hate. I’ve never found what I like as much as I’ve hated things and realized “this makes me want to burn the boat, what else can I do?” You only figure that out with time on the water. As much time as you can afford. Fresh water on a pond is better than time in a chair. 3m seas in 15kn winds teaches you much faster.

You can’t go wrong with the VG23. As tempting as it is to make changes be very slow to change anything important. All the unimportant stuff is fair game.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:59 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:35 pm ...start of the “big, dumb idea”

If I were to give you one piece of gold advice, it would be this. Stop thinking and start sailing.

You can’t go wrong with the VG23. As tempting as it is to make changes be very slow to change anything important.
Can only agree with what you wrote entirely. I enjoy the building but it is a means to an end - sailing is the aim. To build as fast as is practically possible without making any major disasters along the way. The intellectual challenge of learning something new is a lot of fun too, and very addictive but only as a hobby - I've got/had a career and don't need another. I want to enjoy what remains.

I won't change anything in the VG23 that I can't change back. I trusted Jacques - that's why it is this boat and not another. And I'm on this forum and not any other for the people on here.

Yep, when I read your thread on MINI 580 it struck a real chord. Like a lot of things in life for anyone, if we want it enough we try and make it happen. If it doesn't then that is just how things turned out and there is no need to look back or have regrets. Life gets in the way of a lot of things and if you do one thing you can't do another.

"I really just want to sail places and see things. " Amen. I'm blessed with someone who thinks the same. I hope we make it. No failure if not - sometimes things are beyond control, and there is always something else to do.

An office mate of mine once said that life wasn't wasted as long as you "learned something new each day". I think that is a pretty good philosophy.

"Hans Christian 37". Just took a peek. That is a pretty boat. A beauty.

Okay. We're on the 2nd bottle of wine and getting philosophical now so time to stop typing :-)

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:03 pm
by mhd
Busy the last three days. I've just completed gluing on all the port cockpit cleats for the seat and have taped them also. Did the same for the top of the port skirt.

Next job, hopefully tomorrow, I'll cut a hole in the seat for the hatch. I've never built my own hatches before, but aim to make the two in the cockpit seats water-tight. If I could have bought off-the-shelf hatches of the right size I would have done, but even if it takes some time it will probably be nicer to have them flush fitting and home-made. I'm also hoping to get at least one of the settee/berth seats rough-cut and dry-fitted too.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:34 pm
by mhd
The cleats are glued for the port cockpit seat and sole now and it just needs a final sanding over before primer and paint.

I've dry-fitted all the cleats for the cabin settee berths and the seats have been dry fitted also. They are angled very slightly inboard and forward so any drips of water won't move to the portion of the berth under the upper-locker. Glueing and taping those cleats in will be then next job. I was worried that the berths would be uncomfortably narrow but that isn't the case at all and I can easily imagine sleeping soundly. They are plenty wide/long enough (21-25" W and 78" L).

After that is all done I'll do the same for the forward v-berth.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 11:17 am
by mhd
I already wish I had a dollar for every time I've banged my head on the central beam in the cabin...

I doubt that is going to change so I'll fit something to soften the blow when the boat is on the water :-)

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 11:45 am
by Jeff
Nice progress Mick!! Be careful building!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 11:02 pm
by mhd
Well, I spent much of yesterday afternoon and evening getting closer to finishing an "inventory" of absolutely everything that will/may be on the boat when it is launched and one day actually ready sail on a cruise for two people for a week. The plan is I will do a quick calculation to get an estimate of final weight afloat. I will also be able to do a detailed calculation of the VCG. The boat will be heavier that designed due to the changes (e.g. skirt) I've made during the build, but I'm prepared for that. It would be nice to have a decent estimate of how much though.

(After making the list I was daunted by the amount of jobs that still remain, particularly the rigging, but one step at a time...)

When in Australia I had a go on my mate's full-size lathe. I made myself a small rudimentary fid for splicing three-strand rope - not a traditional design but it should come in at least a bit useful when the time comes to start with rope-work and preparing all the anchor lines, etc. The wood was a piece of grey gum (eucalyptus) I think - it is very hard - sanded and oiled. I've also aquired a piece of spotted gum and some brush box. Both are rock hard and heavy and I'm sure I can find a use for them on the boat somewhere.

I've a 12" piece of rebar that I aim to make a marlinspike to go with the fid next time I'm back on wtih metal work.

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:53 am
by Jaysen
My favorite tool for line work. If I was setting up a shop to make lines i would love a turned, hardwood marlinspike. But I found this thing worked very well for the price.

MYERCHIN SAILING KNIFE COMBO TOOL... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GQC5R78?re ... b_ap_share

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:42 pm
by Netpackrat
https://www.tinmantech.com/products/han ... -spike.php

A friend sells this one as a metalworking tool. But I bet it would be great for rope work, as well.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:37 am
by mhd
Netpackrat wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:42 pm https://www.tinmantech.com/products/han ... -spike.php

A friend sells this one as a metalworking tool. But I bet it would be great for rope work, as well.
Looks a nice tool. Might be a bit thick at the end but if so could be filed down as needed.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:04 pm
by mhd
Oh, hum....just wrote a long post and it vanished when I tried to submit...here we go again...

Today I carried on with glueing/taping on cleats for the starboard settee berth. All fine.

Over the past few weeks I've also been running through the complete stability calculations for the boat. From the lines I took off the boat I've been calculating the righting arm and moments at 10/20/30 degrees of heel, and from the latter today I finally got to the transverse and longitudinal moments of inertia (ITT and ILL). I also calculated the mast compression load and the forces on shrouds and stays. These are needed in order to specify the mast itself and the associated standing rigging. (All done using methodology in Skene, The Rigger's Apprentice, and the Westlawn courses, along with numerous other places). The reason for doing this, apart from my own curiosity, was that I wanted I wanted to see how close my own calculations were in comparison. Thankfully the numbers I calculated were similar enough to those Jacques provided although his values of ITT and ILL were somewhat lower than mine - unsurprising since the methodology given in Skene is (apparently) quite conservative. If I went with the larger numbers it would result in scaling up the rig (e.g. from 3/16" to 1/4" ).

Anyway, I'm now in a position to spec out a mast. In the meantime I'll carry on with the righting arm calculations all the way to 180 degrees. I want to produce a complete stability plot for a boat at least once, and it might as well by my onw. I'll certainly post that plot on here when I've finished. Maybe it will be useful if anyone else thinks of building the VG23.

Also, if anyone has recent experience purchasing a brand new mast and rig, I'd appreciate any comments on how the process went.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:22 pm
by mhd
Progress over the past week:

# Cabin settee berths cut and dry fitted. Inside two main lockers underneath each are glassed. One will be ~12 gallon water tank and one will be storage near midships for the heaviest gear, both port and starboard.

# V-berth dry fitted in the fore-cabin.

# Bulkhead A cut-down in height to match deck height and dry fitted. You can just see it on the photo.

# Made a start on the cockpit seat back to port, and the port cockpit seat locker lid.

# Front two pieces of deck dry-fitted.

The good news is that the forward parts of the deck have sufficient flexibility to bend to the slightly increased deck height there. My previous testing showed it should be okay further aft also, but the bend there is greater for sure. No deck beams are fitted yet, but that job is approaching fast also. The tops of the bulkheads need final planning for accuracy too.

The next jobs are

Glueing in cleats in the v-berth (temporary screws currently) and sanding inside each compartment.
Glassing in Bulkhead A
Fitting cleats for the anchor locker partition
Final sanding inside all lockers in the cabin and v-berth

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:23 am
by Jeff
Good progress Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:57 pm
by mhd
A couple of photos showing progress. Most of the major construction is done now - v-berth, cockpit seats, and main port/starboard berths are all ready to be final fitted. The lockers underneath all these will need sanding and priming/painting before that can happen though. The starboard cockpit lockers still need finalising with cleats/hatches and that will be next. Then I'll fit shelves in the v-berth and main cabin over the berths, as per the plans - the shelves provide further longitudinal stiffness. However, the boat is very rigid currently. There are only a few places in the hull now where I can press down hard with my foot and there is any appreciable flex.

Today I ordered stanchion/lifeline hardware - $$$ - it wasn't cheap just for all the fittings - I didn't even buy the stanchion tube yet!!

The last couple of days I worked on the anchor/chain locker and that will be fully ready to go in a few days. I've built it large enough to store 100' nylon 1/2 inch line, 100' of 1/4 inch chain, and hopefully one of the anchors too - these can be accessed from deck or via the top circular hatch. I glassed the compartment shelf bottom today and will cut drain holes through the hull before it is finally glassed in fully, along with bulkhead A. The bottom compartment, accessed via the bottom circular hatch, isn't very large but will probably contain extra line/chain. We plan on three anchors in total. A 33 lb claw anchor, a 22lb delta-type anchor, and a 10lb fluke kedge anchor - reading online it seems like eveyrone has their favourite that they defend to the death.. I've been tempted to get a Rocna/Manson type anchor but they seem inordinately expensive and I'm going to wait until if/when we do decide on serious passages before I'm prepared to justify the outlay.

At some point dry fitting the galley area and installing the base mount for the head (alredy dry-fitted) will also occur. Then the bulkhead beams cleaned up and the longitudinal deck beams fitted accurately. Overall, I think things are coming together well - I hope I'm not missing anything major? Lots of small little fiddley jobs but they all need doing and are getting ticked off one by one. Mostly I'm putting off a lot of the sanding/fairing until it all needs doing in one fell swoop. I'm not looking forward to it.

Things that I've been thinking about a lot and that keep me awake each night:

Buying a mast
Rigging the boat
Turning the boat over
Inhaling too much wood-flour/silica
Making the boat too heavy with stupid additions that I'll come to regret
Regretting not making my own addition at a time when it was trivial to do so.

At some stage I'll start on making my first water-tank. 2x 12 gal, 1x5 gal (heated) and 1x5 gal holding tank is the ultimate plan, with extra water being stored in jerry cans or similar. Has anyone any advice or comments or suggestions on that or anything else?!?!

Please let me know if I'm screwing up. Since starting the hull we've been going almost six months now, and although it has been a lot of manual labour, it has been good to see it coming together. The mental labour is equivalent to the manual, that's for sure.

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:22 pm
by rick berrey
I would look at buying a 5 gal rv hot water heater if you can make it fit and work .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:33 am
by Jaysen
mhd wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:57 pm
Buying a mast
Rigging the boat
Turning the boat over
Inhaling too much wood-flour/silica
Making the boat too heavy with stupid additions that I'll come to regret
Regretting not making my own addition at a time when it was trivial to do so.
Mast - Dwyer and don’t worry. They have a process.
Rigging - Dwyer can prep mast. Just use the tensioner properly.
Turning - prep prep and more prep. By the time you are ready to do that the only thing you’ll break is people or house.
Inhale - this is real. At some point you invest in PPE or say “I’m already going to die soon”.
Heavy - this is a boat killer.
Regret - waste of time. You’ll always have time to address later. And you don’t know what you don’t know. Get her built and on the water. Modify later.

Great progress. Keep at it!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:28 pm
by mhd
Jaysen wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:33 am Mast - Dwyer and don’t worry. They have a process.
Rigging - Dwyer can prep mast. Just use the tensioner properly.
Cheers Jaysen,

Dwyer website says the currently aren't doing one-off orders any more...

"Effective February 2023, we will no longer accept orders for custom work, including custom fabricated spars or custom rigging projects."

They appear to be back-logged with orders. I'll email to clarify.

Today I'm cleaning up in the garage, and getting rid of as much dust as I can :-)

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:22 pm
by Jaysen
Well now… that shows you how long it’s been since I’ve looked at that.

I thought Jacques indicated that the VG used standard profiles and included lengths. If so, a call to Dwyer could show that a Catalina 25 mast or other standard mast would get you what you need. That call may also give you an idea when they will entertain custom orders again.

I’ll see if anyone has more tips on mast suppliers.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:05 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:22 pm I would look at buying a 5 gal rv hot water heater if you can make it fit and work .
Hi Rick

My plan was to build a ~5 gal tank and fit a 12v heater element inside it. I did a test and it seemed to work fine. Connect that up direct to as small solar panel separate from the rest of the electrical system. It won't provide much heat, but it will be continuous and if the sun is shining the water will be at least lukewarm, especially if I insulate the tank somewhat. I'll test again before it is fitted permanently and if it doesn't work, I'll go for the RV heater as you suggest.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:48 pm
by rick berrey
RV heater delivered to your front porch , no build time . Use build time somewhere else and tweek your home design for a later install down the road . I think you are getting close to picking out paint .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:13 pm
by mhd
Done a decent amount this week. Nothing looks too different with the boat itself, but lots of little jobs so some progress all the while.

Glassed the starboard cockpit lockers and have started putting cleats in there for the cockpit seat on that side. It will be a mirror image of the port side with open locker, etc., and will take some days to finish.

Did some metalwork and more on the anchor/chain locker too. Drilled through the bow of the boat for a 316 stainless tow-rope attachment point from 1/4" plate. Plans suggest U-bolt but that's not possible due to the thickness of the internal stem I fitted. Plus I think this is a better option anyway as it will serve as an attachment point for the anchor chain/line at the same time. Also drilled/filled/re-drilled two drain holes in the chain locker. I'm happy with how it turned out. Will post photos when it's ready to fit.

I also got in contact with Dwyer and they were helpful and asked for more details of the mast requirements and specifications. Waiting to hear back from them.

That forced me to think more on the rigging and so I also spec'd out the rigging terminals, etc. Took hours to research and figure it all out, but I finally decided to go with Petersen Hi-Mod terminals (Hayn in the US). I like their design the most of the DIY swageless options, and I've asked my brother back in the UK to order them for me (cheaper from there) and I'll pick them up on my next visit. A weight off my mind to have that done (at least until it arrives and I have to fit it all!).

Bulkhead A is in permanently also.

I bought three anchors.

Jobs for the week ahead.

Finish starboard cockpit locker cleats
Sand compartments under v-berth
Sand compartments under cabin berths
Finish the port cockpit locker lid so it's (quasi) leak-proof

I'll post some new photos when there is something a bit interesting to show.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:21 am
by Jeff
Good progress Mick!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:18 pm
by mhd
Some photos of progress. Forecabin is almost ready for final sanding, including under the v-berth, and then paint/prlmer. I can't actually fit the berth until the boat has been turned over and the keel fitted but most other things can be finished off in preparation, including some shelves. They are marked on the plans so structural and will be useful for storage. Forecabin is a tight squeeze but functional - I laid the deck panels over to get a feel of how claustraphobic it is - better with a hatch I'm sure.

Also glued in the supports for the cockpit sole. It is more or less in the same state as the forecabin - ready for final sanding, primer, paint, and then cockpit sole can then be fitted. I want to get this done soon so at least one part of the boat is semi-finished and I can forget about it.

Also cut and dry-fitted the shelf for the anchor/chain locker that separates the forward compartment into two. I've included photos of the bow towing point I made. This also won't be final fitted until the boat has been flipped. I may drill out the drain-holes in the top compartment to a wider diameter - I think they are currently 3/8".

I've been thinking about the cabin interior and how to fit seat-backs and (structural) shelves above them for storage. I've sketched out some ideas but want to make sure that the tubes for bilge pump and water, etc., are in the best place before settling on anything final.

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:13 am
by OrangeQuest
Everything seems to be coming along nicely.

Nice work!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:04 am
by Jeff
Nice work Mick!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 10:25 am
by mhd
Two unexpected weeks away from the boat sadly.

Back on it yesterday with starboard cockpit seat cleats and cutting shelves to size for the main cabin. Will post pictures when things are moved on a little.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:38 am
by Jeff
Good to hear from you Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:41 am
by mhd
Dry-fitted the starboard cockpit seat cleats yesterday. Just about to start fitting them permanently today.

Also cut shelves for the cabin and dry fitted.

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2023 12:00 pm
by Jeff
Nice progress Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:47 am
by mhd
Thanks Jeff,

The past few days Ive spec'd out the kicking-strap/boom-vang and main-sheet purchase and ordered some parts. Also the main-sheet traveller slide and car. I'm going to use the purchases to assist when turning over the boat to fit the keel.

In the boat I've been dry-fitting shelves and the berth seat-backs in the cabin and glassing some other parts - lots of small jobs. Need to finish off the cockpit lockers this week and then get them final-sanded and the first bit of primer in there. I'll post some photos of progress in a day or two.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:44 pm
by mhd
Some photos of progress. Port and starboard cockpit lockers are more or less completed now, with symmetrical open fuel compartments. Main change to the plans was that I included a strengthening cleat of solid timber diagonally to the large lockers on each side. These larger lockers are much bigger than they appear in the pics and this was mainly to provide a solid attachment point to tie things down to (e.g. outboard/anchor, etc. etc.). In a blow I don't want large heavy things moving around in there and the 3/8" bulkheads just aren't enough to be certain of, in my opinion. Plus the hull in that region was the largest span of ply on the boat, so adding a strengthening "beam" across it will help keeping the hull ply rigid. I also included two/three similar attachment points on the hull bottom. Holes drilled, filled with putty, and redrilled, then rounded and attached wtih 6oz biax. Five (relieved) holes drilled in the port/starboard beams and two in the ones on the hull bottom. Strong solid attachment points that line can be safely anchored to, and I'm happy with them despite it taking some time to make and get them right.

I also cut two "shelves" that can be fitted at an angle above this main "beam" with 1/4" inch bolts (will use wingnuts). Smaller items can be stored on these shelves and covered over with elastic net/webbing. They can be removed if/when not needed.

You can see the starboard locker also has a small box-like compartment to store liquid (e.g. oil/cooker-alcohol) upright. I'll glass that in tomorrow.

Today I glued in cleats for the shelving in the main cabin (will remove temporary screws tomorrow). I also rough-cut the starboard shelf for the forecabin - photos for those to follow. Need to measure/cut/attach cleats for the forecabin shelves also.

The past week or so I've also had a production line of parts that have been glassed with 4oz cloth. These are mostly the shelves themselves (as they are likely to get plenty of use), but also the cockpit seat-backs (inside) and cabin seat-backs (inside). Would be difficult to fix/repair if they do get beat up wtih things moving around inside, so I took the view that it was worth the effort and the small weight addition, in terms of long-term maintenance.

Plenty still to do of course...

Some of the things I've ordered started arriving (anchors/chain/rode/blocks/etc/). The main traveller arrived today, in a 4' long box, that was bent at roughly 60 degrees. Understandably I refused delivery...I'll wait to hear what the supplier says - hopefully another will be on the way soon.

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:52 pm
by mhd
Interesting site showing construction of a 8.71m (~27') Serpentaire - designed by the original Serpentaire designer Bernard Veys.

https://serpentaire851.over-blog.com/

Ply on frame and certainly different to Jacques' VG26. Looks a really nice boat although I'd need a bigger garage to build anything larger than the current one :-)

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:21 pm
by mhd
Did more on the framing of the shelves and seatbacks in the main cabin. Dry fitted bottom shelf and looks okay. The three bottom vertical cleats aren't glued in yet. While the ply is bent, the horizontal cleats are bang-on level, even if they don't look it in the photo!

All shelves will be "fiddled".

Also cleats and dry-fitted a shelf in the forecabin. I'm trying to get most stuff cut and ready to go before I start on some truly miserable sanding.

Trying to get done what I can before a couple of weeks away for some pre-Christmas sunshine.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 4:05 pm
by mhd
Sailing dinghys in Jamaica is a lot more fun than building boats in New Mexico...

Nice to be back on the water again.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:20 am
by Jeff
Enjoy Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:46 am
by mhd
Sailing up and down the beach at Negril in a Hobie cat...decent 5-10 knot breeze.

Image

Further down the beach. Not sure what happened here, but doesn't look good!

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 11:20 am
by mhd
After catching up on long-delayed and overdue holidays due to pandemic, and letting our hair down a bit, I'm back on the build.

Six inches of snow outside, and borderline temperature for epoxy in the garage, but I'll put some heat in there so I can do some work. Yesterday I rounded over and sanded the port locker lid to a more accurate size and the dry fitted the parts where it will fit in the port cockpit seat. Today I'm glueing up the seat parts that will support the locker lid in order to test the fit before I cut the holes for the catches and also cut the drain channels. Will take a few days to get it done right I'm sure, but there are plenty of other jobs to be working too. I'll post a photo once things are moved on a bit and there is some progress.

Blocks for boom-vang/kicking strap, mainsheet purchase, and backstay adjuster all arrived, and lines for these are en route also. First test for some of these will be in helping turning over the boat when the time comes...

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:49 am
by rick berrey
I've been waiting for you to get back so i could ask a question on the forward berth . Looking at pictures of both the Super Serpentaire and the VG23 study plans the forward berth looks to be very open to the cabin , you look like you have only about 18" to crawl in , is this by plan design or your design change ? Thanks , Rick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:10 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:49 am I've been waiting for you to get back so i could ask a question on the forward berth . Looking at pictures of both the Super Serpentaire and the VG23 study plans the forward berth looks to be very open to the cabin , you look like you have only about 18" to crawl in , is this by plan design or your design change ? Thanks , Rick
Hi Rick,

Well spotted! My own change. The opening to the fore-cabin is 24" in width - narrow for sure, but not too difficult to access. Just crawl onto the foreberth (when fitted) to get in, and we'll be bent over already given the lack of standing headroom in the entire cabin. We don't intend to sleep in there and it will be primarily used for storage.

I had two reasons for the change:

Firstly, keeping the ply in that bulkhead, rather than cutting it out, means there will be hard-points to attach things to (cupboard behind the sink on the aft-side) and shelves + fuseboard on the fore-side, etc.

Secondly, that bulkhead (C), and the one aft of it (D), are the ones that support the mast and have to deal with the greatest vertical forces - they are just 18" apart. Various Serpentaire designs I've seen have installed metal-rod supports to prevent any depression in the cabin roof in this area. I've tried to achieve the same result by leaving more ply than designed on both bulkheads and keeping them full as possible. Time will tell as to whether this is successful or not.

There is a weight penalty of course - around 15 lbs on each bulkhead. But I judged it to be a price worth paying - and similar to having to install metal rods post-build. My estimate indicates that the boat, when finished, will be ~500 lbs heavier than designed. This is due to (a) my own design changes (~250 lbs) and (b) my sloppy and/or overbuilt work during the build (~250 lbs). I've exceeded Jacques' plans in variuos areas (wider taped seams, thicker fillets, over-use of epoxy, cloth/tape where it wasn't specified, extending the cabin aft, etc.) This boat could be build a lot faster with less weight if I'd stuck rigidly to the plans. But again, I've thought long and hard about all the changes I'm making, and although I'd prefer not to have the extra weight, I know I'll be happier as a result. The boat won't be as fast as it could be of course, but we're not racing. Cruising is the aim. Making a long-distance passage (e.g. to Hawaii or wherever) is the ultimate long-term goal.

I know I could build cleaner with less epoxy (and less weight) if I was more careful. But I know it would take me a lot longer to do that. And my time isn't infinite - other things to do too. I know I would lose patience like I generally do when fine finish work is needed (e.g. varnishing etc.). I don't want to risk the build dragging on for years - there must be endless numbers of unfinished boats - so I'm pushing myself to build as fast as I can and to get the boat in the water as quickly as possible. It won't be as pretty as it could be, or as fast, but it will actually get built, and we'll sail it, and that will be enough for me. Inside, I'm determined we'll do our best to become sailors who are proficient enough, and confident enough, to tackle an offshore passage. Time will tell on that too - we're hopefully smart enough to change our minds if for whatever reason we decide it isn't for us. And if we change our minds, well, there is always something else to do eh?

Thanks for the interest. I really need everyone's comments on everything I'm doing - never owned a boat before, but I'm doing everything I can to make it happen.

I'm back on the cockpit locker lids today. Each one will take some time waiting for the epoxy to dry between stages, but this is the one part of the boat where I realise I have to work extra careful if I want them to be as watertight as possible.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:33 pm
by Jeff
Nice Mick!! Hope holiday was great for you!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:43 pm
by mhd
Jeff wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:33 pm Nice Mick!! Hope holiday was great for you!! Jeff
Hi Jeff,

Yes, hard to have a bad time in Jamaica :-) Lovely place to viist and spend some time on (and in) the water. We'll be back there again before too long, I'm certain. Plenty of naval history there too, and watching the sun setting with a rum cocktail on hand has a lot to recommend it compared to snow and ice in New Mexico :-)

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 2:14 pm
by Jeff
Nice Mick!! Really glad you guys had fun!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2023 5:08 pm
by rick berrey
Building what you want is why you build your own boat . You can always cut some out later if you want , or add lightning holes to reduce weight .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:25 pm
by mhd
Port cockpit seat locker and lid...all edges rounded for glass.

Next need to glass the edges of the lid and cut/fit holes for the locker catches. Plus need to drill/fil/drilll drain holes and then glass the inside drain channel. Sore fingers from sanding out the corners.

I also glued in cleats and dry-fitted shelves in the fore-cabin - will show photos of that in future post.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:49 am
by Jeff
Looks cold outside!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:32 pm
by Fuzz
Must be living in one of the higher elevation places there. From my buddies place in New Mexico it can be70f and 30 minutes drive you can be riding a snowmachine. Pretty neat place.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:47 pm
by mhd
Yep, it/s pretty high here. We're not too far away from Colorado. We had six inches of snow a few days ago. It is melting slowly, but plenty more to come before winter is done with... Santa Fe ski area has opened already so looking like we're in for a good snow year!

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:11 pm
by mhd
More progress on the cockpit lockers. Still need to fill and round the edges of the inner lip and glass over. The port locker is slightly larger than starboard in order to fit the outboard.

Will be a few more bouts of fiddly glassing and sanding before they are completely finished.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:43 am
by pee wee
Nice looking work!

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 7:20 pm
by mhd
Back to it after the Christmas break. More work on the cockpit lockers and lids, plus other odd jobs in the cockpit. Making sure I have good fit and a watertight seal on the locker lids isn't easy, but I'm making progress. Also today I over-drilled and filled holes for the other hatches in the cockpit (manufactured circular hatches, 6 and 8 inches in diameter) plus holes to fit a step down into the cabin Tomorrow I'll re-drill the holes and they will be ready also.

Cockpit sole is almost ready to be fitted. Last thing to do before that is to fit a small holder for bottles (wine/rum/etc.) underneath made from 1/4" ply. Then a final bit of sanding and all should be ready to go.

The rest of the cockpit is coming together nicely and I'm happy with it. Most of the sanding is already done. Some minor jobs and then it too can be final-sanded, and under the cockpit seats can be primed and painted.

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:51 pm
by mhd
Sanding truly is a miserable task...

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2023 8:44 am
by rick berrey
Are you using air tools or electric ? I don't think I have ever seen pictures of anyone using an air file on the forum , not sure why paint and body tools are not standard on a boat build for finish work .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2023 10:02 am
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 8:44 am Are you using air tools or electric ? I don't think I have ever seen pictures of anyone using an air file on the forum , not sure why paint and body tools are not standard on a boat build for finish work .
Electric. Wired and battery. Mostly a Makita random orbital sander and a mouse sander. Occasionally a belt sander on the flat parts where there is a lot to remove and I'm sure I can be careful. Plus a lot of hand-sanding for the parts those won't reach.

Air tools would be really good but changing over would be $$$.

I've almost finished the cockpit and lockers now. Would be nice to get some paint on the boat before too long, but one step at a time. No point "spoiling the ship for a happeth o' tar" as the saying goes. I've one more week at it before some more travel gets in the way of boat-building again.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2023 10:18 am
by pee wee
I've used an air file before and they work great, but the amount of air required to run them means you need an industrial size compressor, ideally a rotary screw compressor (many of them require 3 phase electricity which isn't an option in most residential areas). Random orbit air sanders don't really have much of an advantage over the modern random orbital electrics, and they use a lot of air, too. I once tried running a random orbital sander on my home compressor and it ran constantly but the pressure dropped until I had to stop after just a couple of minutes. Adequate air compressors are just too expensive for the average builder to justify. I guess you could rent a portable diesel generator if you really wanted to go that route, but the sanding process is done over a long period of time and rentals would get expensive.

Spray equipment is more affordable and capable, and you do see some of these builds using spray equipment. I also recall one build that took their boat to a body shop and had it painted there.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2023 9:00 pm
by rick berrey
You do have to have a good compressor , or take breaks and let the air build back up sometimes . I think on the larger builds an air file would be more than justified in saving time , material , and a better finish . I used to do some paint and body work 40 or so years ago , hand sanding was a no go unless I was water sanding , and you cant shape curves near as fast or as good as you can with a body file . Jitterbug would be on my list as well . You are enjoying yourself Mick that's what counts , I can see paint by the time it warms up , and maybe a Fall sail .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:17 pm
by mhd
Well, you are certainly right about the hand-sanding. I've actually sanded my fingertips away since Christmas Eve, and now will have to have a few days recovery. I truly can't wait until the cockpit lockers are finished, primed, and painted, and the cockpit sole is glued down. That will seem like a huge step forward - maybe 20% of the way to completion. It is probably no more than five days work in total to get there, but that is going to end up being late Jan, sadly. I'm back on the road again next week.

Today I checked the port locker lid and tidied it up, and it is a good fit. I also gave an extra coat of epoxy to the underside of the port cockpit seat. Close. On the starboard side I sanded the lockers (again) and they are close to being ready. Not a boat-show finish - they are lockers after all - but no sharp bits to snag sails or fingers. That is the minimum requirement.

I also glued in a small divider to hold bottles under the cockpit sole, plus two small cleats that can be used to tie things down in the same area. I concious of all this as extra weight but again, I see no alternative. Can't have things moving anywhere when the boat is bouncing around.

My wife has been diligently learning celestial navigation (yes, seriously!) and planning the passage to Hawai'i. We've made it this far. Fingers crossed for 2024!

Happy New Year, one and all.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:12 am
by OrangeQuest
When it comes to sanding, I use as many power tools as possible to get the bulk of the sanding done in as short of time as possible. Mini belt sanders, round drum sanders, I used two sizes of belt sanders, 3 if you count the mini belt sander I wore out. Disc sanders that chuck up in a drill, which I used it with a cordless drill and an angled drill I bought for sanding and drilling in tight places- money well spent. Wore out a few orbital sander rubber pads. Invented a few sanding devices to reach and make sanding easier. Harbor Freight sells an assortment of mini drum sanders that work well in my 20,000rpm cordless router. They made quick work of smoothing out coves/fillets but must use the same lite touch you would use when using a belt sander. Wore out a cordless angle grinder with low grit sanding disks to help shape profiles of edges and take off bulk glass work before switching to a belt sander to smooth out the surfaces.

But there is nothing more satisfying than hand sanding and watching a rough surface turn smooth. I was lucky enough to be able to push my boat out in the parking lot to do a lot of wet sanding after the final cloth/epoxy was put on the hull bottom and again during painting. Even if most of it was done with a bucket of water and a sponge. When it comes to hand sanding, I prefer wet sanding over dry sanding due to no dust, sandpaper doesn't clog up and it is an incredibly quiet and relaxing exercise with almost instant results.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:28 am
by Jaysen
I hate myself for saying this.

3M sanding sponges. The ones with the hexagons on one side. 36-320. I buy enough to have 12 of each grit on hand for every job. I barely use power tools once fairing compound is down. Before that it’s 36, 60 or 80 on a pad or circular RO or a dremel drum. The SOB tool get used a bit to brutally butcher corners.

But those damn blocks. Overpriced but worth the pennies I have to pinch to pay for them.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 1:58 pm
by mhd
All good suggestions - thanks everyone.

Lockers I'm okay with not being perfect. But I do want a really nice decent finish in the cabin.

I've ordered a mini belt-sander...

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:45 pm
by mhd
Glassing is done on the locker drains. Trim off the excess tomorrow and sand drips off the bottomside. When each seat is permanently fitted I'll drill through so the drain channel drains into the bottom of the cockpit. Lids are glassed and almost finished too now.

Tested the fit of the oars I made a couple of years ago. They are 4" too long to fit, but I will cut them down or make another pair.

I've added in an extra bow-to-stern support beam along the centreline of the cockpit - not in the original plans.

Would be great to get the boat in the water in 2024, but I've got some periods when I'll be away from home and it is going to be tight. No problem if it takes a month or two longer though. At least I'm starting to accept it is going to happen one way or the other.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:28 pm
by mhd
Glued and taped on hardwood strengtheners to the bottom of the cockpit locker lids to try to make sure they don't bend if someone jumps on them.

Also glued in the port and starboard shelves for the open fuel lockers in the cockpit. Will tape and glass them tomorrow as I ran out of time.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:45 am
by Jeff
Nice progress Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 7:05 pm
by mhd
Glassed in the port and starboard open fuel locker shelves. 6 oz biax tape on edges then 6oz cloth over the top.

The wider mahogany piece of wood above the shelf towards the bow is there to support the main-sheet traveller once the seats are fitted.

That is the end of progress for three weeks while I'm away on travel. More when I get back.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 11:12 pm
by OrangeQuest
Safe travels.

Everything is looking good.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:22 am
by mhd
Back in the US at last. Spent yesterday thinking in detail about next steps on the boat and calculating how much time I'll have to work on it this year.

Next steps:
Glass in the cockpit sole.
Prime/paint inside cockpit lockers and glass in the cockpit seats.
Final-sand the fore-cabin.

Time on boat:
Maximum of 28 weeks to work on the boat in 2023. That will all be full time but the rest of the time I'll be away or busy with something else so no boat work possible at all. That is unlikely to be enough to completely finish everything, even working on it full time. Can't be helped though.

I also aquired standing rigging components, the mainsheet traveller, and an archaic speed log.

Starting from Monday I've got a full 7+ weeks full-time working on the boat before the next enforced break. I hope to get a lot done. We shall see! I'll post photos after the weekend.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:40 pm
by rick berrey
Looking at what you've already done I would think after 28 weeks of work you would have a finished boat . There are 7 days to a week , so 10 or 12 hour days and some weekends early on should help get you to the water this year . :)

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 2:43 pm
by Fuzz
It is amazing how the labor hours increase with the size of the build. Time is the one thing most builders underestimate the worst.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 2:53 pm
by Jaysen
And how much longer the small things at the end take to do than the giant things at the beginning. So much faster to get a stack of plywood to look like a boat then a “hull shaped thing” to be an actual sea worthy vessel.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 4:39 pm
by mhd
Yep, thanks all! I totally agree with the comments. I read that, for commercial boat builders, finishing the hull is considered to be roughly 1/3 of the total build time. I've been reasonably accurate with estimates up to now, based on experience of construction from my previous build. Any delays have been due to unforeseen "life" stuff that you can't predict. But as the "construction" phase ends and the "finishing" phase begins, my estimates of time taken are bound to become more inaccurte as I've never built a boat this big/intricate before. The cockpit hatches and lids already took x2 my time estimate. Still, if I had a full year to work I reckon I'd be ready to launch by the end of this year. But with only 28 weeks max this year, I'm thinking it is guaranteed to drag on into 2025. That will be fine. I intended retiring completely on 31st Jan this year. It is now going to be early July but not a day longer...

For the build up to now there have been plenty of hard weeks and 10-12 hour days when I can (and also some slacking off!). Plus I've been doing the Westlawn courses too, and they've taken plenty of time as well. As Rick suggests, there will be plenty more long days and weeks to come too. But whatever happens it is making me happy. I'm learning and building and I'm 100% confident we'll have a boat in the water as soon as is reasonably possible.

Thanks to everyone for taking an interest in the build :-)

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:56 pm
by Jaysen
The big shops do finishing way different. For example the gelcoat is often put into the mold before the glass. This means the hull is “faired and finished” the minute it’s popped with only touchups required. That 1/3 number is really just about working the rigging and other stuff that we think of as the last 1/5 of the build.

That’s not to scare you off, but to let you know that you should not be bothered if your numbers suddenly balloon over your estimates. You’re not a pro. You’re not using their methods. You’re doing this as a hobby.

That said, you are crushing this build timeline. It will be interesting to see how you do from here.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:06 pm
by mhd
Some fruits of my recent travel.

Main sheet traveller track (Barton)

Rigging screws/turnbuckles (Petersen/Hayn)

Log (Walker's Excelsior IV)

Toggles from Petersen (for attaching standing rigging to mast) were delivered incorrectly - they've fixed it now, but I'll have to collect on a future visit.

The log was picked up cheap from a second-hand shop, but it appears completely un-used. A letter in the box states it was bought in 1972 but returned as it wasn't suitable for the boat (?). I won't be selling it, but in writing this post I checked and see there is one currently on EBAY for $615 and another for $900. Bit of work with the brass polish is in order I think...

https://www.scarboroughsmaritimeheritag ... rticle=619

Time to get back to work now. The boat won't build itself (sadly).

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:12 pm
by Jeff
Nice Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 9:58 pm
by mhd
The missus is away for work this week, so time for a few of those long days mentioned previously. I've got the first primer on the boat in the port cockpit locker and the front compartment under the cockpit sole. Nothing shows up all the imperfections more than fresh paint, but regardless, I've made the decision to not excessively sand or fair any part of the boat that you can't normally see. So for these parts the rule is cursory sanding, System Three Primer, then paint, and that will be enough.

The open hatch won't be finished until the boat is turned over.

I'm only putting primer+paint on the first section under the cockpit sole. The other areas will be mostly inaccessible after the cockpit sole is on. Another coat of primer and two coats of paint and the sole itself can be fitted.

The port cockpit seat and hatch are practially finished and I'm working on the starboard seat now. These have been a real pain to get right but are almost done.

Mick

PS While away I read "Heavy Weather Sailing" by Adlard Coles. Decades old, but I understand why it is still in print. The sea doesn't change and some of the stories and tales in there are enough to make me take up croquet rather than sailing...

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2024 4:13 pm
by mhd
Got the other side done.

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 9:08 am
by Jeff
Nice Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 8:10 pm
by cape man
Looking good!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:13 pm
by mhd
Thanks Cape-Man. Thanks Jeff.

One more coat of paint tomorrow and should be ready to permanently glue on the cockpit sole and the seats. That will really feel like a big step forward.

System Three Pennant Primer
Interlux Brightside White (with 10% brushing liquid added)

The primer goes on easy and leaves a really good surface for paint. First time I've used the Interlux and I really like the finish. Garage is around 62F and at that temperature it does takes a long time to dry (24-48 hours).

Had to reduce the brightness in the photo as is so bright and shiny. Will need extra dark sunglasses for sure :-)

Mick

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 4:48 pm
by mhd
Glued down the cockpit sole - I'm happy with it. Tomorrow I'll fill and glass the edges.

Image

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 2:41 pm
by mhd
Glassed in the cockpit sole and primer inside the port side skirt compartment.

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:43 am
by pee wee
Looks good!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:40 pm
by fallguy1000
Starting to really see the thing now! Good luck!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:00 pm
by mhd
Thanks Hank and thanks Fallguy.

I'm happy with how it is all going. Occasionally it is daunting to consider all the work that still needs doing, but things are at least seeming to move fast now. For the next few weeks I will have some time and can hopefully crack on and make some good progress with the main cabin and fore-cabin.

I spend a LOT of time stood at the stern of the boat looking forward and simply thinking about what is coming next and what order to do things in.

I'll keep posting photos as the build progresses. Thanks for your interest.

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:40 pm
by fallguy1000
mhd wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:00 pm Thanks Hank and thanks Fallguy.

I'm happy with how it is all going. Occasionally it is daunting to consider all the work that still needs doing, but things are at least seeming to move fast now. For the next few weeks I will have some time and can hopefully crack on and make some good progress with the main cabin and fore-cabin.

I spend a LOT of time stood at the stern of the boat looking forward and simply thinking about what is coming next and what order to do things in.

I'll keep posting photos as the build progresses. Thanks for your interest.

Cheers,

Mick
Me, too. I made lists; lots of them.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:34 pm
by mhd
Good progress. Managed to get the port cockpit seat glued in today. I'll glass in the edges tomorrow. The front edge will need rounding over so that will take a little longer to finish.

I also finished sanding the cabin floor compartments on the port side and put the first coat of primer on. I've marked the compartment lids on this side too, so cutting those out will be another job to do in the near future.

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2024 5:31 am
by cape man
Looking good! One bite at a time. 8)

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:27 pm
by mhd
Well, another "bite" it is...

First coat of paint in the port cabin lockers and first coat of primer to starboard. I also glued on the starboard cockpit seat. I'll tape the edges tomorrow. Both seats still need trimming to size and rounding over on the inboard edge.

Apart from painting, the next tasks are fitting cabin seat backs, with associated lockers/pigeon-holes. I estimate I'm roughly eight weeks of actual work away from turn-over. However, we've got visitors coming to stay for two weeks in late March, and after that we are out of town for three weeks ourselves. So turn-over is estimated some time in May. Let's see how accurate that prediction turns out!

MIck

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:01 am
by mhd
Ah, two posts in one day - long one.

I just test-fitted the port berth top - looks good. Won't be long before it is in. Would be sooner if the paint dried a bit quicker.

I also cut tape for the starboard cockpit seat - that will be the main job tomorrow.

And just to prove that all progress isn't forward, I forgot to glue in attachment points to the bottom of one of the starboard cabin lockers before I primed it. These are so I can strap down the water tank securely. Oh well, That is what the sander is for. Won't take long to sand off some primer and get them in. Originally I was going to access the tank via a hatch, like those in the port berth, but I want to be able to remove it completely for repair/replacement and that would severely limit the size. So instead I've reluctantly decided to simply screw that section of the berth seat on, so it is completely removeable. I was going to build a matching tank on the port side, but have realised it is simply lighter/easier to use jerry-cans for the rest of the water and top up the single tank from those. The single tank will have a volume of around 8 gallons. I already have four 22 litre (~5 gallon) jerry-cans that we've used before when camping and they worked well so we will stick with those initially. To date I've been using them full as weights when gluing parts together...

Time for a cup of tea and then bed...back on the horse again tomorrow.

MIck

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:52 am
by pee wee
Your photos do a good job of depicting just how many parts there are to a boat like yours, and they're coming together!

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:10 pm
by mhd
Some more progress...testing out seat-back fittings in the cockpit and cabin. Some painting too. Preparing the starboard cabin berth seat. Also cut off the edge of the starboard cockpit seat - I'll do the other side tomorrow and round over prior to taping.

Under the sole there is a storage for oars, etc. Also a box storage area for wine to the right of the photo - four bottles fit in nicely. I've oiled a piece of leather that will fit over the bottles to secure them and will attach it when it has dried. With a bit of luck we'll still have something to drink, even if the boat capsizes :D

The white bits in the taped joint aren't air bubbles. They are 1/4" chopped fibreglass strands - I've added these to most joints on the boat with the intention to strengthen them: cf. straw added to clay for building a primitive house. Who knows whether it helps or not. My intuition says that in moderation, it can't hurt. I've looked through dozens of engineering journal articles and spent/wasted too much time trying to find definitive answers - more than necessary. Even a few structural engineering textbooks. I have found no agreed-upon "correct" mix with regard to wood-flour, epoxy, silica ratios, etc. to maximise either bond-strength, or flexibility, or impact hardness, or various other parameters. There are a *lot* of papers where mechanical properties are found for a series of test mixes, but the tests aren't standardised (and hence pretty much scientifically meaningless). Also enough papers disagree on the results that I've come to the conclusion that there are no agreed-upon standards in existence (in contrast to say, stainless steel bolt strength for a given diameter/size).

Oh-hum. Since there are no definitive standards, we can all argue about "correct' ratios to our heart's content. :D

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:22 pm
by OrangeQuest
Everything is looking incredibly good.

A good cordless collection is a must in boat building. Saves on the cords everywhere and easy to grab and go. BTW, I am a big fan of Ryobi. The 18V, 5-gallon canister wet/dry vac does the job of keeping boat debris under control. 4 amp battery lasts a good while.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:24 am
by mhd
OrangeQuest wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:22 pm Everything is looking incredibly good.

A good cordless collection is a must in boat building. Saves on the cords everywhere and easy to grab and go. BTW, I am a big fan of Ryobi. The 18V, 5-gallon canister wet/dry vac does the job of keeping boat debris under control. 4 amp battery lasts a good while.
Thanks OQ! I'm happy things are progressing too! I thought long and hard about starting the boat, as I didn't want to be stuck with a shell that wasn't ever finished (seems a few builds end up that way), or that was a completely unenjoyable chore. It is easy to burn cash on boats, and I wanted to be sure I ended up with something in the water at the end. Or otherwise I might as well have just bought a boat second-hand. Cheaper and easier. But it would never be exactly what I wanted. Seems like I'm more or less on track but still a long way to go. I hope I can last the course. I've been mixing up the build with finishing off work projects, and the Westlawn stuff, and also work/personal travel so things have never got too repetative. Hard work for a few months, then a pause for something else. It has been a good mix up to now and should be the same for the rest of the year. I don't regret starting the build - well not yet at any rate :-)

Yep, Ryobi for cordless and Makita for corded. I've been happy with both.

Today I worked on the berth locker lids. They are mostly done now and will just need primer/paint, once they are fitted. I'm looking forward to that being done so me and the missus can spend a night in the garage, in the boat, testing the berths out for comfort...

Thanks for your interest! Please comment if you see me screwing anything up, or if you think of a better way to do things. I'm still learning and reading and doing what I can to make sure I don't mess something major up.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:08 pm
by rick berrey
When you camp out in the garage make sure you have the grill mounted , thick rib eyes , and big bottle of good wine in your rack to help get a high comfort score from your missus .

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:03 pm
by mhd
rick berrey wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:08 pm When you camp out in the garage make sure you have the grill mounted , thick rib eyes , and big bottle of good wine in your rack to help get a high comfort score from your missus .
Will do! :D

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 11:05 am
by Jeff
Nice work Mick!!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:36 pm
by mhd
Thanks Jeff,

I glued in both cockpit seats now - rounded over and taped in, they look good. Looks a lot more finished. And at least I have more space to put all the tools :D One thing that Jaysen mentioned a while ago, is that the cockpit sides as shown, are high. Too high. I left them high when originally cut so I had the option to choose how high they should be, and I think this must happen now. I'm not too worried about the windage, as the entire boat doesn't have huge freeboard, but the cockpit volume looks too much like a bucket. This is in contrast to Jacques original design for an open transom, and even the "offshore" design with transom moved inboard. The angle of the photo actually makes it look much worse than it is, but still, a wave breaking in there would be dangerous, no matter how big the transom drains are. So I've marked on dashed lines as the locations where I'm considering cutting down the cockpit seat backs. This will be a first step and gets back closer to Jacques original design in appearance. I'll see how it looks and can always decrease the size still further if needed. Easy to cut off. Harder to cut back on again...

I'll also take a photo from the side next time, to show that things aren't quite as extreme as they appear.

There will also be a large chunk cut out of the transom (rough marking in green), where the tiller will go, plus some other drains lower down. Plans call for two three inch drains and I'll exceed this substantially.

I also glued in both berth tops. Port is rounded over and taped in. I'll finish starboard tomorrow. Next job after that is roughly sanding out the anchor locker, fitting the shelf inside, and painting. I've also started making an ice box. I never got the Peltier cooling working to my satisfaction, so it will just be a very well insulated box that will provide 3/4 ft^3 of chilled storage space.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:57 am
by mhd
Lines show the planned cut in the cockpit seatbacks and hull sides from outside/inside the boat. I think the main reason the seatbacks look so high from inside the boat is that the seats themselves are so low (~13 inches). The plan is to cut the seat-backs (to ~16 inches in vertical height) to reduce cockpit volume somewhat. As you can see, making this cut will make little difference to windage, (less than 3 ft^2 removed on each side) but that part of the boat has the potential to retain a fair amount of water.

I've also included a photo of progress as of one hour ago. Today I taped in the starboard berth, apart from the portion that will contain the water-tank. Also started on making the port berth locker framing. Tomorrow I'm aiming to start putting 6oz cloth on the cockpit seats. Berth seats will have 4oz cloth. I've decided to cover any horizontal surfaces in the cabin with 4oz cloth and just epoxy the rest.

MIck

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:27 am
by Jaysen
That extra height might be welcome in rough seas to secure “bodies” in the cockpit. As far as water removal, that should be a set of large, through transom scuppers. In a number of small offshore designs the transom resembles Swiss cheese to ensure water vacates quickly. That would be my approach to addressing water in the cockpit.

The build looks good.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:54 pm
by mhd
Thanks Jaysen,

I've dithered on cutting down the cockpit sides slightly. I decided to reduce height by a couple of inches. This will (a) make the cockpit-coaming-to-deck transition easier and (b) will make the sheer-line look better (in my subjective opinion). I'll make the cut tomorrow on the starboard side. Very large drains in the transom are indeed planned.

Some more progress attached. Cockpit seat rounded over and glassed. Cabin seats rounded over and glassed in. First coat of paint on the seat locker lids. I've been preparing to fit the shelves in the cabin too and have prepared the framing for this. Need to get some more 1"x1" to finish it. Also preparing to fit cockpit coaming on the starboard side. Storage will be for light stuff, mooring lines, etc. There will be a manual bilge pump on this side too. Two 24"x12" hatches on each side of the boat.

I've practically finished all the stability calcluations for this VG23 now. I didn't have Jacques' actual lines for the boat, so measured my own. Jacques commented on stability: "Build as designed, the VG23 has positive stability up to 130 degrees with CB keel, 145 degrees with the deep keel. With the various changes I've made (e.g. increasing cabin roof height slightly, etc.) my calculations show vanishing stability at ~142 degrees. The VG23 is an excellent safe, stable design. I have absolutely no regrets we decided to build the boat.

I do want to emphasise that this is my calculation only, based on measurement from my own build. No responsibilty will be accepted for those of you who build a VG23 and find it acually rolls at 135.78 degrees :-)

Jacques never published (as far as I've been able to figure out) a full stability curve for the VG23. I've plotted up my own and it is similar to that for the VG26. I'll stick it on here in a future post as it may be of interest to some of you, and potential future builders. Based on the lines, I've also my own spreadsheet of dozens of parameters that any boat designer would calculate for their designs. Maybe I'll share in a future post. The one thing I haven't calculated yet is VCG - I used a value Jacques gave in a previous post. I intend to finish that calculation at some point also.

Cheers,

Mick

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:45 pm
by mhd
Stability curve for VG26 from the study plans...

Image

My calculated stability curve from the lines of my own build of the VG23.

Image

The stability "curve" was drawn freehand. Manual planimeter and scale ruler and everything worked out pencil and paper as it might have been 50 years ago or more. Of course, these days I could do some nice polynomial or cubic-spline curve-fitting to cover up any of my own points that don't lie on a smooth line. Probably due to inaccurate measurements on my part, or bad data entry with the calculator. But, even with the inaccuracies that might remain, it is "good enough" for me.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 4:34 am
by OlivierP
An AVS above 140° for a small boat with a short keel is impressive ! Is that for the hull alone, or the fully rigged boat, with mast etc ?

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:59 am
by mhd
OlivierP wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 4:34 am An AVS above 140° for a small boat with a short keel is impressive ! Is that for the hull alone, or the fully rigged boat, with mast etc ?
Hi,

Yep, bare hull alone with boat at the DWL as designed - as per the normally quoted static stability curves.

My main aim was to try and get somewhere near the value Jacques quoted "Build as designed, the VG23 has positive stability up to 130 degrees with CB keel, 145 degrees with the deep keel". I agree that for a small boat, anything above 130 is great and "good enough" at least for me. The rig and ultimate weight distribution on board will change everything of course, but that is true of any boat. I read somewhere that calculations showed some off-the-shelf design reduced their stability from >120 degrees to something like 98 degrees simply by adding a roller-furling jib...

My own values probably should be interpreted with (at least) an error of ±10 degrees given hand measurement and calculation and hand-sketching the curve. Doing a full error analysis would be possible of course but more work :-) To reduce error I could calculate every 5 degrees (or every 1 degree!). Or, more sensibly get the lines in a proper design program and get the computer to do the work. But regardless of that, there are approximations in all such calculations, even if the numbers are done by computer 100% accurately and nicely presented. The entire methodology has assumptions.

I was simply looking to demonstrate to myself that I could do the calcs and confirm to myself Jacques quote. The "stability" quoted for boats is always 'static stability" so just a starting point. No account of rig, or weight distribution. It is a guide - nothing more. But I'd rather have static stability as high as possible, and for a small boat, as you say, the numbers look decent. I'm happy enough with that!

Cheers,

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:43 pm
by OlivierP
Ok, thanks for the information, I was not aware that stability curves were published for bare hulls without rigging, I'm curious to know what the "real" AVS would be with a fully rigged boat.

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:11 pm
by mhd
OlivierP wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:43 pm Ok, thanks for the information, I was not aware that stability curves were published for bare hulls without rigging, I'm curious to know what the "real" AVS would be with a fully rigged boat.
Sorry for not being clear - my fault. When I say "bare hull" I should have said "as designed". Meaning with the rig and stores onboard as specified by the designer. I used Jacques VCG which takes everything he envisaged onboard into account. So, included the designed rig, but not any changes I've made on my own build - and there are a few. The one calculation I've not done yet is to calculate my own build VCG (via moments) to see how much difference it will make. I'm estimating my build will be ~500 lbs heavier than designed with some change in VCG that will alter the stability curve to some degree.

Sorry for the confusion. Hope that makes sense.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 6:35 pm
by mhd
Progress over the last few days. More work on the seatbacks in the cabin, port and starboard. Rounded the cut-outs and seatback locker lids. Also dry-fitted the starboard seatback in the cockpit, the narrow deck portion on top, and cut the holes for the hatches. Glassed on the port skirt top too.

Mick.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:05 pm
by rick berrey
Looking very much like a boat now

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:01 am
by Jeff
Nice work Mick!! Jeff

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:51 am
by mhd
Lots of little tasks. Lots of sandingsandingsanding over the past week.

Steel tube arrived for stanchions so today I'm cutting those to get at least one that I can use to see/measure/estimate how they will work out in terms of size. The last thing I want is the stanchions placed in the way or where I want/need something else.

Will post some more pics when I have something interesting to show. But things are happening - one step at a time.

Mick

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:58 pm
by mhd
Made the first stanchion - took less time than I thought. 316L steel tube in 60 inch lengths cut in half so 30 inches in height for each one. Bases and other attachments were from SeaDog, which also claim to be investment-cast 316.

I cleaned up the burrs on the tube then drilled out a hole for the top life-line (which will be 7x7 wire rope), and finally tapped out threads for the 1/4"-28 set-screws. Did all that with the hand-drill as the workbench is full upstairs but it went quickly. For the base attachment I just had to drill small dimples in the tube in the right place for the set-screws.

The tube steel (US manufacture) is completely dis-interested in a magnet. In contrast, a magnet is quite strongly attracted to the SeaDog parts (and also the cleats I bought from Suncor). Possibly this is due to the parts having some welding (e.g. stanchion base, cleat and base) and the entire thing becoming more strongly para-magnetic. Or just maybe it isn't 316 :-) Time will tell in how they hold up over the years. Ironically, I was initially more worried in the steel tube quality as I used a new supplier and it was *much* cheaper than any boat supplier, or even just regular online metal places I've used previously. I can only recommend.

https://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Sh ... 5-5-length

I have the parts to put a second lifeline half-way from base to top on each one. But haven't decided whether I want the extra weight or windage. I'll have a think on that.

Once I've done the stanchions I need to come up with a workable plan for where (and how) to put a rail across the back of the cockpit (on which to mount a solar-panel). Probably the spare tube I have joined across the back of the cockpit from the aft stanchions.

Other work for the day included a bit more on the ice-box and glassing on the top of the cockpit coaming on the starboard side.

Mick

Image

Image

Re: VG23 New Build

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:16 pm
by mhd
Finished the stanchions. I'm really glad I went to the effort, rather than buying them pre-built. I've done as much of them as I want to do for now. Eight of them in total and I forgot to mention in the previous post that they are 1" OD with 0.065" walls. There are sure to be some changes to the stanchions during installation. That's fine. Practice makes perfect.

Also finished as much of the starboard cockpit as I can for now - it is now ready for turn over and fitting backing plates under the coaming for deck hardware, etc. The seat-back and hatches are only dry fitted, but all else is ready - bilge pump and plumbing, shelves, etc. all done. So I moved everything over to the other side and sanded down the port seat, prior to 6oz cloth over tomorrow. The next few days will be getting that side of the cockpit symmetrical wtih the starboard side.

Mick

Image

Image