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Pamet FS14

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:21 pm
by PametBW
After a visit to Cape Cod I have made some progress.
The panels are on the frame and I just pulled them together with zip ties.
It is my first time doing this so I have tried to use some strategies described in previous build threads.
Those strategies included using 16d nails as spacers and gently attaching the side panels to the transom.
As this is my first time, I am fairly insecure about appropriate tolerances.
To my eye, all the seams appear okay.
Where all the panels come together at the bow is the sketchiest part so I would ask for advice from more experienced eyes please?
My hope is that it will pass inspection and that I will begin spot welding.
I intend to use EZ Fillet for the spot welding.
I think that I will crawl underneath and apply some masking tape to the inside to thwart dripping...
Please feel invited to comment and advise. Thanks, in advance.
Here are some pics:
a bow zipped.jpeg
b port forward zipped.jpeg
c starbrd forward zipped.jpg
c starbrd forward zipped.jpg (95.18 KiB) Viewed 1569 times
d port aft zipped.jpeg
d port aft zipped.jpeg (82.19 KiB) Viewed 1569 times
f starbrd aft zipped.jpg
f starbrd aft zipped.jpg (95.17 KiB) Viewed 1569 times
g transom view zipped.jpg
g transom view zipped.jpg (108.6 KiB) Viewed 1569 times

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:34 pm
by Fuzz
To my eyes it looks like you have the front 1/4 of the side panels pulled in too much. You might try cutting a few zip ties and putting a larger spacer in where the bow panels come together. Do not worry if the gap looks really big. It is no big deal to fill a fair sized gap. Just make sure the side panels are fair. Other than that your work looks good. In truth it looks good enough now to glue it together and then clean up the bow area with a sander.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:21 pm
by OrangeQuest
A lot of builders have used 3/4" pvc pipe, cut no more than an inch or so, to use as a clamp to help align the sides with the bottom pieces. It goes between the zip tie and wood so as you tighten the zip tie it forces the two ends to align with no overhang. Other than where the 4 pieces meet, the boat looks good!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:51 am
by PametBW
Thanks to you both Fuzz and OrangeQuest.
As much as the seams look okay to my eye, the panels do feel like there is uneven pressure on them. I fussed around with the zip ties for a long time and it is easy to feel like I should just let go and move on to the next step. I am going to resist that urge and try using some 3/4" pvc. I am hoping that this is the first in a long line of boats so I would like to grow beyond cobbling things together (of which I have done a lot in my life...).
Learning what it looks like when the panels are fair is a little elusive to my eye.
Hope this is not too many details but I want to get to a point where I feel that I know what I am doing and to be able to contribute to this forum.
So... off to get some plastic and try to pull this together at a higher level.
Thanks again!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:25 am
by Fuzz
This is a case where being a really good wood worker is almost a bad thing. Do not try for a perfect fit. Gaps are GOOD! You need room to get the epoxy glue in the gap. No two pieces of plywood will bend the same so two pieces might feel very different. The big thing you are looking for at this point is fairness. To get the bow panels right you might end up with a large gap at the bow. That is ok we can work with that.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:52 am
by PametBW
After reading the two replies, it really made sense to follow the advice.
I picked up some 3/4" pvc (available in 5' lengths at local home center) and cut it into 1-3" pieces.
At first zip-tying them in felt awkward and frustrating, so I cut a few more zips and things started to come together much better.
It was especially reassuring to read Fuzz's last post about gaps being a good thing; without that I would never have had the confidence that things were getting better instead of worse.
The panels now feel much less wracked by the pressure of the zips, it feels more evenly distributed in different directions.
I think they are fair.
More than anything, I felt like I was having fun out there alone (with the pups) in the shop.
I feel grateful for this folks in this forum for the gifts advice and confidence.
fwd star zip2.jpeg
fwd star zip2.jpeg (112.11 KiB) Viewed 1496 times
fwd port zip2.jpeg
fwd port zip2.jpeg (105.06 KiB) Viewed 1496 times
bow zip2.jpeg
bow zip2.jpeg (116.26 KiB) Viewed 1496 times

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:47 am
by pee wee
That looks good! I like your workspace, too.

Don't mess up that wood floor with drips!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:32 pm
by Fuzz
Now that looks good :D You are ready to pre-wet the gaps and start glueing it together. If any gaps are too big to fill without the glue falling through just put some on it and let it firm up. Then you can go back and finish filling the gap. Putting packing tape on the back side would be better but it might be a real bear getting under the hull. I tend to over fill the gaps at this point as I would rather have to sand a little more than needing to go back and fill low spots.
Hank is right you need to protect that floor as you are going to get drips on it at every step along the way.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:46 pm
by TomW1
Looks great agree get some protection on that wood floor. Your boat looks very good now. Tom

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:49 pm
by PametBW
Thank you Pee Wee, Fuzz, and TomW1 - I really appreciate the observations and advice. I just made a quick trip to Chicago and came home planning to spot weld the seams tomorrow. It was really fun to turn on the computer and look at the responses in the forum. Your advice has me planning to:
1. Crawl under there and cover the seams between the zip ties with packing tape.
2.Spot weld using EZ Fillet. As I have never done it, I don't really know how to gauge the gap size; I don't see anywhere that I would consider "big" but I guess I will find out...
3.Figure out a way to protect the floor. I put high value on the shop, in part because I just finished building it this spring. An obvious solution would be tarps or thick plastic, but I am thinking about trying to find some old rugs. It might sound frivolous, but I very much enjoy the way it feels to be out in the shop. I also have two dogs who don't like slippery floors.
Is there anything I should know about EZ Fillet before I start mixing and applying it?
Does anyone have any recommendations for covering the floors?
Thanks Again!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:18 am
by Fuzz
I would put plastic down that covers maybe a foot under and two feet out from the hull. Make sure to tape the plastic down so it does not become a trip hazard. As for gap size I would not worry about it being too big. With backing tape I have seen gaps two inches big filled. Remember there will several layers of glass on both sides of the joint. You are doing good posting pictures. We all love watching new builds with pictures. :D

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:15 am
by BarraMan
Fuzz wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:18 am I would put plastic down that covers maybe a foot under and two feet out from the hull. Make sure to tape the plastic down so it does not become a trip hazard. As for gap size I would not worry about it being too big. With backing tape I have seen gaps two inches big filled. Remember there will several layers of glass on both sides of the joint. You are doing good posting pictures. We all love watching new builds with pictures. :D
Indeed! I covered my whole garage floor with heavy black plastic, what is called 'visqueen' here, carefully taped down.
I also climbed under my hull and taped between ties.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:59 am
by pee wee
If you don't like the plastic idea for floor covering, try something like red rosin paper. It's a heavy paper that I've seen some home builders use to protect new hardwood floors during construction; it will feel better than plastic and won't be slippery. It comes in a roll three feet wide, so you'd have to overlap and tape all around.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TRIMACO-Eas ... /202040752

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:14 pm
by PametBW
pee wee wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:59 am If you don't like the plastic idea for floor covering, try something like red rosin paper. It's a heavy paper that I've seen some home builders use to protect new hardwood floors during construction; it will feel better than plastic and won't be slippery. It comes in a roll three feet wide, so you'd have to overlap and tape all around.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TRIMACO-Eas ... /202040752
Thank you Pee Wee - this is a great idea! (I perused rugs and realized I had dramatically underestimated the cost...).

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:53 pm
by PametBW
Fuzz wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:32 pm Now that looks good :D You are ready to pre-wet the gaps and start glueing it together. If any gaps are too big to fill without the glue falling through just put some on it and let it firm up. Then you can go back and finish filling the gap. Putting packing tape on the back side would be better but it might be a real bear getting under the hull. I tend to over fill the gaps at this point as I would rather have to sand a little more than needing to go back and fill low spots.
Hank is right you need to protect that floor as you are going to get drips on it at every step along the way.
Fuzz - Thank you for the directions described in specific steps. I had read somewhere that it was good to pre-wet the gaps before beginning to fill them in. Today I was able to crawl underneath and tape the inside of the seams. Tomorrow I will pre-wet the with epoxy and then fill them with EZ Fillet. It is starting to look more and more like a boat.
Thanks again for the help.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:01 pm
by PametBW
The spot welding seemed to go pretty well. I learned several things after struggling with the mix heating up and stiffening during the application process. Moving forward I will measure the volumes in cups but dump then onto a board (is this called a hawk?) for mixing to slow down the reaction. I thought using plastic bags for the application process was okay for the spot welding. I used the mixing sticks to move the putty around once it was in place.
Spot welding is not the perfect name because the process ultimately filled in most of the seams.
Spot Welds Stern.jpg
Spot Welds Stern.jpg (108.56 KiB) Viewed 646 times
Spot Welds Starboard.jpg
Spot Welds Starboard.jpg (94.09 KiB) Viewed 646 times
Spot Welds Port.jpg
Spot Welds Port.jpg (104.83 KiB) Viewed 646 times
Spot Welds Bow ish.jpg
Spot Welds Bow ish.jpg (103.36 KiB) Viewed 646 times
The gaps that are left are either where the stitches were or places that I had blue masking tape warning me about stringers or frames below. The next task is to fill in these gaps.
Unless someone has advice or other ideas I feel confident to take the next steps.
I see the steps for this process as:
1. Put tape below the stitch gaps (where I could not put tape earlier because the stitches were there) to support the wet putty.
2. Slide some plastic in places above the stringers/frames and below the gaps to prevent inadvertently gluing the panels to the frame.
3. Fill in the gaps with EZ Fillet (which I now know how to pronounce...)

Looking down the road, I expect to be preparing to tape the outside edges. I understand this to mean using putty to round the outside edges to a 1/2" radius. I am currently trying to visualize the steps, tools, and techniques that I will need...?
Thanks to all of you, I am very grateful for this forum.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:28 pm
by OrangeQuest
When you fill in the gaps, use enough putty to bring everything up enough to sand and round over for the tape.
Now you know how fast the epoxy mix (putty) takes to kick, mix only enough for you to handle before you run out of time. Fill in the gaps and low spots quickly and come back to make it look neat once you get all the putty where it needs to be.

Really looking good and coming along nicely.

I put two coats of primer on my FS14 hull today.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:45 pm
by Fuzz
The sides and bottom angles are not sharp enough to need a lot of rounding over. The sanding should round it over enough for the glass to lay well. Take a piece of glass tape and do a test. If it lays down well dry it will do the same when wet out. The transom area is pretty much a 90 degree bend and will need to be rounded over. You can sand it or use a router either way works just fine.
Things are starting to look a lot like a boat :D

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:46 pm
by OrangeQuest
Hmm? Are your reading glasses multiplying? One pair in one picture, 2 pair in another and then maybe 3 pair? You going to run out of sandpaper before you run out of reading glasses! :lol:

May want to stick with just one pair, before you are done, they will have epoxy on them.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:57 pm
by PametBW
OrangeQuest wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:46 pm Hmm? Are your reading glasses multiplying? One pair in one picture, 2 pair in another and then maybe 3 pair? You going to run out of sandpaper before you run out of reading glasses! :lol:

May want to stick with just one pair, before you are done, they will have epoxy on them.
Ah OrangeQuest, you're killing me. Of all my insecurities, not being able to see is the only one that I can afford to address. After reading your message, I counted 8 pairs scattered around my shop - not including the pair perched on the visor of my cap. Thanks for noticing, it is always nice to know that there is somebody looking out for me - even if it is for the purpose of abusing me...

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:02 pm
by Fuzz
If it makes you feel any better the kids here will take a shot at just about anyone. :roll: The good news is it is all in fun, we try very hard to keep it friendly and run off the butt-heads :wink:

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:43 pm
by PametBW
Fuzz wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:02 pm If it makes you feel any better the kids here will take a shot at just about anyone. :roll: The good news is it is all in fun, we try very hard to keep it friendly and run off the butt-heads :wink:
Thanks Fuzz! Everything about this effort to learn to build boats has been fun, fulfilling, and rewarding so far, especially this forum. My only concern is that my bad sense of humor will get me kicked out!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:19 pm
by OrangeQuest
PametBW wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:57 pm
OrangeQuest wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:46 pm Hmm? Are your reading glasses multiplying? One pair in one picture, 2 pair in another and then maybe 3 pair? You going to run out of sandpaper before you run out of reading glasses! :lol:

May want to stick with just one pair, before you are done, they will have epoxy on them.
Ah OrangeQuest, you're killing me. Of all my insecurities, not being able to see is the only one that I can afford to address. After reading your message, I counted 8 pairs scattered around my shop - not including the pair perched on the visor of my cap. Thanks for noticing, it is always nice to know that there is somebody looking out for me - even if it is for the purpose of abusing me...
Sorry, I was just ribbing you a little about your glasses being everywhere. I lose my on my head till I bump my head and they break. I have to wear glasses because I am far sighted in one eye and near sighted in the other and then have bifocals to read. But for boat building I use cheap reader glasses and buy them in different powers and even have a lighted magnify glass on an arm to see when I get splinters in my hands and fingers from the fine grain marine plywood.

Wait till your school age employees come to work and ask why you have a pair of glasses on top your head and wearing another pair. Hard to tell them because I lost one pair. :doh:

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:45 pm
by PametBW
It sounds like we are cut from the same cloth.
Don't worry about hurting my feelings, that requires a serious effort. My reply was a clear example of my twisted sense of humor - I buy cheap readers in packs of three for $9 a pack. I scatter them as Hansel and Gretel spread breadcrumbs and give them away freely to the bank, post office, and any wayward soul who visits the shop...

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:32 pm
by Jaysen
PametBW wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:45 pm Don't worry about hurting my feelings, that requires a serious effort.
Challenge accepted!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:40 pm
by Fuzz
Proof they are pretty easy going around here is they have failed to run me off in ten years.
Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:32 pm
PametBW wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:45 pm Don't worry about hurting my feelings, that requires a serious effort.
Challenge accepted!
And with this I rest my case :D

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am
by PametBW
OrangeQuest wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:28 pm When you fill in the gaps, use enough putty to bring everything up enough to sand and round over for the tape.
Now you know how fast the epoxy mix (putty) takes to kick, mix only enough for you to handle before you run out of time. Fill in the gaps and low spots quickly and come back to make it look neat once you get all the putty where it needs to be.

Really looking good and coming along nicely.

I put two coats of primer on my FS14 hull today.
Thanks OrangeQuest. I hope that your two coats of primer went well. Is this a boat you are building now and do you have a build thread?

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:05 am
by PametBW
PametBW wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:01 pm The spot welding seemed to go pretty well. I learned several things after struggling with the mix heating up and stiffening during the application process. Moving forward I will measure the volumes in cups but dump then onto a board (is this called a hawk?) for mixing to slow down the reaction. I thought using plastic bags for the application process was okay for the spot welding. I used the mixing sticks to move the putty around once it was in place.
Spot welding is not the perfect name because the process ultimately filled in most of the seams.
Spot Welds Stern.jpg
Spot Welds Starboard.jpg
Spot Welds Port.jpg
Spot Welds Bow ish.jpg
The gaps that are left are either where the stitches were or places that I had blue masking tape warning me about stringers or frames below. The next task is to fill in these gaps.
Unless someone has advice or other ideas I feel confident to take the next steps.
I see the steps for this process as:
1. Put tape below the stitch gaps (where I could not put tape earlier because the stitches were there) to support the wet putty.
2. Slide some plastic in places above the stringers/frames and below the gaps to prevent inadvertently gluing the panels to the frame.
3. Fill in the gaps with EZ Fillet (which I now know how to pronounce...)

Looking down the road, I expect to be preparing to tape the outside edges. I understand this to mean using putty to round the outside edges to a 1/2" radius. I am currently trying to visualize the steps, tools, and techniques that I will need...?
Thanks to all of you, I am very grateful for this forum.
Filling the gaps seemed to go pretty well, up to a point...
The lesson that I learned is to begin at the keel and work outward and down. Another lesson learned the hard way, which seems to be my specialty.
I started with the bottom/side seams and the transom. Then I moved to the bow to work my way aft along the centerline. Of course reaching across the wet putty was pretty rough on the shirt that I was wearing. I don't have a good stool or platform to stand on and the putty was starting to harden by that time.
I decided to let it all harden overnight.
In the morning, I'll fill the gaps in the keel and build up the edges that are too square for the tape to lay smoothly.
On second thought, following the advice of this forum has given me evidence that I might be learning to do things the easy way. I have always wanted to learn from the mistakes of others instead of simply repeating them.
Thanks again!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:48 am
by pee wee
PametBW wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:05 am In the morning, I'll fill the gaps in the keel and build up the edges that are too square for the tape to lay smoothly.
It may just be the way I'm reading what you are saying, but just in case . . . the way to achieve a rounded intersection that tape can lay over smoothly is to round the wood by whatever means you choose- sanding, rasping, routing. You are removing material, not building it up.

Your work is very neat and the fit of the panels is excellent. I'd assume you are going to get it right, but the above comment sounded odd! :help: :lol:

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:45 pm
by Fuzz
pee wee wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:48 am
PametBW wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:05 am In the morning, I'll fill the gaps in the keel and build up the edges that are too square for the tape to lay smoothly.
It may just be the way I'm reading what you are saying, but just in case . . . the way to achieve a rounded intersection that tape can lay over smoothly is to round the wood by whatever means you choose- sanding, rasping, routing. You are removing material, not building it up.

Your work is very neat and the fit of the panels is excellent. I'd assume you are going to get it right, but the above comment sounded odd! :help: :lol:
X2 :wink:

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:19 pm
by OrangeQuest
PametBW wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am
Thanks OrangeQuest. I hope that your two coats of primer went well. Is this a boat you are building now and do you have a build thread?
The primer seems to have stuck!! Lite sanding today, wash down and tucked away waiting for the morning to cast new hope on her. I do have a build thread but you should wait till you finish your boat to check it out. Mine will give you bad ideas!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:55 pm
by PametBW
OrangeQuest wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:19 pm
PametBW wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am
Thanks OrangeQuest. I hope that your two coats of primer went well. Is this a boat you are building now and do you have a build thread?
The primer seems to have stuck!! Lite sanding today, wash down and tucked away waiting for the morning to cast new hope on her. I do have a build thread but you should wait till you finish your boat to check it out. Mine will give you bad ideas!
Glad that the primer stuck.
Waiting to see your thread is probably wise. I find that I get lost in these threads, in more ways than one. There are so many tactics that seem like great ideas it makes my head spin a little, added to the volume of threads and posts that make it difficult to find my way back to a great idea that fleetingly captured my fancy... Posting pics along with plans for the next step... and listening to the words of wisdom from the forum seems like the simplest and wisest approach.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:34 pm
by PametBW
Filling in the gaps and adding fillets to the outside seams ended up being a multi-step process.
The first step, filling in the gaps, went pretty smoothly
Adding fillets for the purpose of having a wider angle for the cloth to lay on was my first target. With this as the target, I applied two layers.
In the rear-view mirror, that was ill conceived (NOT Ill-advised because what I did was in conflict with what was advised).
The advice of Pee Wee and Fuzz are both evidence of that. The advice was basically that I should be removing material to achieve more rounded angles, NOT adding material. Sorry about the failure to follow advice. It was not pig-headedness. Somehow I had a vision that prevented me from absorbing the recommendations. Another lesson learned the hard way (although not too hard).
Ultimately, working with a rasp I removed almost all the material that I had added (along with some wood that I gouged out).
The rasp worked better than the ROSander for me. It removed a lot of material in a fairly organized way. I like using hand tools. After doing most of the work with the rasp, I did put some 80 grit on the sander and smooth it all out a bit more.
I did go out and buy a respirator, which I used diligently.
In the future, I would like to try a router for this step. I have only used one to put shiplap edges on boards - so a lot to learn before I let a router anywhere near a boat.
Here are some pics of the boat as it sits this evening.
rasped fillets centerline.jpg
rasped fillets centerline.jpg (101.02 KiB) Viewed 593 times
Fwd starboard.jpg
Fwd starboard.jpg (98.87 KiB) Viewed 593 times
Fwd port.jpg
Fwd port.jpg (99.75 KiB) Viewed 593 times
Aft starboard.jpg
Aft starboard.jpg (89.83 KiB) Viewed 593 times
Aft port.jpg
Aft port.jpg (91.3 KiB) Viewed 593 times
My plan is to put fiberglass tape on the seams later in the week - after I head down to Cape Cod to take apart some windows and replace broken balances.
bad sense of humor.jpg
bad sense of humor.jpg (112.09 KiB) Viewed 593 times

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:07 pm
by Fuzz
Boat is looking good. If it were me I would try to round over those edges a little more before trying to lay glass over them. At this point you want the glass to lay down and around easily. Later on after all the glass is on you can sharpen up the edges if you want to do so.
That is some funny stuff right there with the glasses. Me thinks you are going to do just fine here :D

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:02 pm
by PametBW
Thanks Fuzz.
The edges do seem sharp, but I was reluctant to keep going after them because it will require removing some wood.
Your advice makes perfect sense and gives me the confidence to keep going.
From other threads it seems like I need to take to heart the idea that this will be a wood core boat as opposed to a wooden boat.
Now my plan is to continue with the rasp and sander, unless someone points out a flaw in this idea.
I will post pics again before I start taping the seams.
This process is both challenging and interesting and I really enjoy the support from you guys.
Thanks again!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:51 pm
by OrangeQuest
Everywhere that is dark in your epoxy filler needs to be the matching lite because when you tape those low dark areas will have air pockets trapped below the tape.
Also, remember to find all those glasses before laying the cloth because they will cause very big air pockets. And you will need the glasses to see the air pockets! :lol:

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:17 am
by PametBW
Thanks OrangeQuest. That is a really clear target that is easy to visualize. I really appreciate the concrete advice; it makes it easy to look forward to getting out in the shop.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:49 pm
by PametBW
After a trip to repair some window balance ropes in a cottage on Cape Cod, I got a chance to re-examine the hull of the FS-14.
My inclination was to think it was previously ready for tape along the seams.
The advice about what needed to be done beforehand really set me straight and I am grateful.
There are several things that I learned along the way:
-It is helpful for me to think of the boat as a wood-core fiberglass boat.
-Getting the edges rounded for tape requires removing material, as opposed to adding more putty and shaping it. This was counterintuitive to me and I am very grateful to have been set straight.
-A rasp is no longer my favorite tool for removing material. A random orbital sander with 60 grit discs is my favorite tool with a couple of 40 grit discs used judiciously...
Here are a few pics to show what it looks like; I believe that it is now ready for tape.
Tape now bow.jpg
Tape now bow.jpg (97.72 KiB) Viewed 499 times
To my eye, the bow has come together nicely. The tip regarding the darker (low) spots turning into air bubbles struck fear into my heart and gave me the confidence to be much more agressive than I had been earlier.
tape now starboard.jpg
tape now starboard.jpg (99.72 KiB) Viewed 499 times
tape now port.jpg
tape now port.jpg (90.81 KiB) Viewed 499 times
Those pics give a reasonably clear view of what the seams look like now, but I have three questions:
Along the seams there are some very small voids, I see them as little "pinhole" areas. I am inclined to think they will be filled in with epoxy during the next step, which would mean that I don't need to worry about them. Should I fill them with putty and grind it down again before taping the seams?
Obviously, the holes for the "stitches" are empty, should I fill them with putty before proceding?
tape now pinholes.jpg
tape now pinholes.jpg (102.52 KiB) Viewed 499 times
The chine (angle between the transom and the bottom) appears to be a right angle. I have tried to round the edge, but wonder - Is there anything else that I need to do in this area?
tape now stern.jpg
tape now stern.jpg (72.36 KiB) Viewed 499 times
My next step will be to follow advice from this forum, whether that is one step forward or two steps back...
Thanks!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:54 pm
by joe2700
PametBW wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:49 pm
Those pics give a reasonably clear view of what the seams look like now, but I have three questions:
Along the seams there are some very small voids, I see them as little "pinhole" areas. I am inclined to think they will be filled in with epoxy during the next step, which would mean that I don't need to worry about them. Should I fill them with putty and grind it down again before taping the seams?
Obviously, the holes for the "stitches" are empty, should I fill them with putty before proceding?
The chine (angle between the transom and the bottom) appears to be a right angle. I have tried to round the edge, but wonder - Is there anything else that I need to do in this area?
Thanks!
I would fill both those pinholes and the holes for the stitches. You can save yourself grinding down again though. As long as your putty is from the same system as your laminating epoxy then just put some putty on them right before you apply your tapes. The tapes will flatten the putty right out but you won't have a void. Whenever I'm about to do a fiberglass layup if there are some minor holes or low spots on the surface I just put a dab of putty on them right before I start.

This is one example of when working wet on wet save you time. When you get to doing the inside tapes you will need to make an epoxy fillet first to radius the inside corners the same way you are sanding to radius the outside corners. Those fillets can be a total pain to sand, so I like to wait until they just get firm then immediately apply the tapes on top. No sanding in between, and you don't even have to worry about making the fillets perfect since you can massage them a little though the glass. It's a tiny bit higher pressure since you are trying to do more steps at once, but once you get comfortable I feel like you save days when you can work wet on wet instead of waiting for cure then sanding. Note I do pre wet out my tapes on a bench before applying them to the boat which makes this easy, many people like to wet out the glass in place.

I think the edge between the bottom and transom looks rounded enough, can check by just seeing how easily some glass makes the bend. Might help to just hand sand that small ridge on the corner where the 3 edges come together, the corners can be tricky because so many layers come together there.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:32 pm
by PametBW
Thanks Joe2700!
I would fill both those pinholes and the holes for the stitches. You can save yourself grinding down again though. As long as your putty is from the same system as your laminating epoxy then just put some putty on them right before you apply your tapes. The tapes will flatten the putty right out but you won't have a void. Whenever I'm about to do a fiberglass layup if there are some minor holes or low spots on the surface I just put a dab of putty on them right before I start.

This tip about filling the pinholes is perfect, psyched that I am using all System Three materials. I will definitely follow this guidance!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:37 pm
by PametBW
Thanks Joe2700!
I would fill both those pinholes and the holes for the stitches. You can save yourself grinding down again though. As long as your putty is from the same system as your laminating epoxy then just put some putty on them right before you apply your tapes. The tapes will flatten the putty right out but you won't have a void. Whenever I'm about to do a fiberglass layup if there are some minor holes or low spots on the surface I just put a dab of putty on them right before I start.

This tip about filling the pinholes is perfect, psyched that I am using all System Three materials. I will definitely follow this guidance!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:50 pm
by PametBW
Thanks again Joe2700!
This is one example of when working wet on wet save you time.

This being my first time, it has been interesting to see all the build threads where "wet on wet" is mentioned. My sense is that it is a newer way to put on the tape, as opposed to laying down the tape, pouring a line of epoxy down it, and spreading the epoxy with a spreader/roller.
The idea of wetting the tape on plastic on a workbench (although the tape will be longer than my 8' bench...), rolling up the plastic, and rolling it out in place is attractive. It does seem efficient and that it would probably at least as easy to learn - so I think that I will move in that direction.

My list of tasks (hoping to get out there tomorrow) is:
- hand-sand the corners of the transom (where the tapes will all meet)
- cut the pieces of tape for the six seams (3 that run the length of the boat + 2 from chine to sheer on transom corners + one atop the transom)
-lay out the tapes to see that they lay smoothly in place
- fill in the pinholes and the stitch holes
- paint one seam with epoxy before soaking the matching tape on plastic on the workbench then rolling that tape up and moving it to the boat where it will be unrolled. Use a roller to get it flattened and fixed in place
- repeat the previous step until the tapes are all on the hull
I hope that anyone with questions or advice will let me know.
This vision makes me feel pretty excited. Thanks again for the advice Joe2700!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:10 am
by Fuzz
Working wet on wet does not mean wetting the glass out on a table and moving it to the boat. Wet on wet is laying another layer of glass over one that has not fully kicked. If you are using glass with mat stiched to it like 1708 then wetting it out on a table first works well. If not wetting the glass right in place works better for me. The no mat glass will tend to lose its shape or fall apart if you try to move it.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:24 am
by PametBW
Fuzz!
You are awesome, I really appreciate the way you're looking out for me. This is all uncharted waters for me, with a lot of opportunity for my ignorance to get me in trouble over my head...
When I got up this morning, I took a sip of coffee and opened up this forum - trying to build the first boat is an entirely new process - challenging and interesting.
Guess the first step is going to be open up the tape and see if it is matted
Thanks!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:22 am
by joe2700
Yea wet on wet just refers to applying the next epoxy layer over a previous one that has not fully cured. You get a chemical bond, so you don't need to sand the previous layer to make the surface rough for a mechanical bond. Each epoxy will specify how many hours this window lasts before you have to sand for a mechanical bond.

Whether you are working wet on wet or not you can wet out your tapes in place or on a table and move them. I prefer on a table even for thin 6oz tape, Fuzz prefers wetting tape like that in place. Just personal preference have to see what works better for you.

Note I am talking about premade 6" wide fiberglass tape for the seams. I wet out the full width fiberglass cloth in place as I'd never be able to move it around prewet and it would start to cure before I had a chance.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:56 pm
by Fuzz
Joe and Dan are both correct. There is always more than one way to skin the cat. You just need to find the way that works best for you.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:27 pm
by Dan_Smullen
FWIW, I found that laying wetted FG on tacky, pre-wetted surfaces was incredibly effective on vertical surfaces. This drastically reduced my tabbing time on my stringers, even though I was half way through it when I figured it out. This might be the only way to do overhead work too. For flat surfaces, you might as well saturate the cloth in place.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:12 pm
by PametBW
Thanks for all the information and support Fuzz, Joe, and Dan. It gave me the confidence to apply tape to the seams today.

I used a half of Dan's idea about using a wet surface to hold the fiberglass tape in place and then coating it.

It is probably routine for you, but using that to spot tack the tape in place was really helpful.

I found that my tendency was to use the brush too much in all phases of the game. In retrospect, I think it would have gone quicker and smoother if I had done more pouring (as opposed to using the brush to move the glue from the cup to the boat). I also used the brush too much in the spreading process. It went better with the plastic spreader - but I kept going back to the brush and smearing stuff around. Hopefully I re-learned that lesson enough times to let it actually stick.
Another mistake that I made (I think) was putting on too much glue. It looked okay when I walked out of the shop.

After going into the house, I realized that I didn't have any pics of the progress. After a bit I headed back out, hoping to get interesting enough pics to get someone to offer advice on how to proceed.

When I returned a while later there had been quite a bit of downward dripping/running...
Fortunately I was able to spread out the most intense "rivers."
Unfortunately I was not able to rescue the little bird that provided constant disruption in the shop today. I forgot to flush him out of the shop before I left and he was stuck in the glue like a fly in flypaper. I did my best to help release him - but prospects of his seeing another sunrise are slim.
Bow taped.jpg
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Forward Starboard and Keel taped.jpg
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Forward Port and Keel taped.jpg
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Aft Port taped.jpg
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Starboard transom taped.jpg
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Unintended carnage...
Keel Carnage taped.jpg
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Either tomorrow or Sunday I hope to make some progress covering the hull with cloth.
My vision is to start at the transom and work forward.
I will be working alone, so I think I will try to cut two or three pieces and do it in sections with 4-6 inches overlap.
Thanks in advance for any advice or guidance.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:34 pm
by OrangeQuest
Looks good other than the feathers!

I like to use a 3" roller with a 1/4" nap to roll epoxy on tape and 6" roller for cloth. You get a more even coat, faster spread. I found some containers that are about 4" wide and about 8" long that work great as a rolling pan for both size rollers. Because you are "rolling" the epoxy around, it doesn't kick as fast in the pan so more time to get it where you need it. No runs or drips. The rollers are small diameter so when you are laying tape on inside corners with wet fillets, the roll helps squeeze the tape into the fillet and form prefect fillets at the same time.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:05 pm
by PametBW
Thanks OrangeQuest!
Rollers are a great idea and make perfect sense to me.
My vision had been pouring to pour the epoxy onto the cloth and spread it around with brushes/spreaders; a roller is definitely a better tool.
I have painted floors by pouring straight out of a can and spreading with a roller and am wondering about pouring epoxy and spreading it with a roller - especially because I don't have a clear picture of a 4"x8" container that I could use...
Another thing that I have trouble picturing clearly is how the sheet of FB will fit around the corners (especially at the transom) without needing to be folded or having cuts and overlaps (darts?).
I am looking forward to the next step.
Thanks again OrangeQuest.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:36 am
by Fuzz
At some corners you have no choice except to cut darts in the cloth. Lay the glass down dry and see if it will lay down good for you. If not it is not going to lay down and stay there when wet. As for laying large pieces of glass you can do it alone with a little pre-planning. It helps to have your epoxy measured and ready to go. Some folks will use two different colored cups and put hardner in one color and resin in the other. Make sure you put the correct ratio in each cup! Then you can grab one of each color, mix them, and go. After you mix the epoxy pour it out on the glass and use the roller to spread it around. It will take a little time for the glass to wet out and you can use the roller to move it around to the dry spots. Start at one end and move to the other end in steps. This way you can keep a wet edge. Where you started might be kicked before you get to the other end but it does not matter.
If you have questions please ask and the guys will help. :wink:

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:58 am
by OrangeQuest
Something like this, that the rollers can fit in to get epoxy on the roller. 3" fits one direction and the 6" fits the other. I use them just like you would use as a paint tray but use the sides to make sure the roller gets "loaded" with epoxy. And because they are flexible, after the left-over epoxy is dry, I twist them a little and hit them with compressed air and the cured epoxy pops right out.... Most the time. It is more useful for vertical epoxy/FG laying and taping verses straight out of the mixing cup/pot and pour.
Image

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:08 pm
by Dan_Smullen
It feels good to do something better than you did it last time, for sure. Glad to offer something.

The plastic spreader is you friend! It does a great job of pushing the epoxy down into the glass. Enjoy the fun!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:19 am
by PametBW
The temperature today here in southern Vermont will not get out of the 50's and the extended forecast has most nights dipping into the 30's, so I am starting to strategize what I can get done before I have to shut down progress on the FS-14.
Dan - Thank You for the reminder about the pleasure that comes with learning and growing. Building the shop, working on this boat, and getting to be part of this forum are all great fun. Thanks to all of you!
Thanks Fuzz for the advice on the corners and assembling multiple cups to support covering large areas of cloth. It is really helpful to have tips like that; it is also easier to be confident and have fun when being advised by folks who know how it feels and what is coming next...
I thought of a couple of ways to make this first effort at covering a hull with cloth easier, if not more streamlined.
The SilverTip Epoxy "Wet" stage lasts 72 hours. After putting the tape on the seams, it took me 36 hours to get back in the shop. The epoxy was not at all sticky, but I still had some trouble getting the cloth on the hull, so I used a piece of black pipe as an axle to let me unroll the cloth and pull it out above the hull and lay it down. It made me feel clever, so I am including a pic of it.
Black Pipe Axle.jpg
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A strategy that makes me feel more secure by keeping the steps small occurred to me. It will slow me down in the long run, but keeps layers inside the 72 hour windows. I covered the entire bottom of the hull with a layer of cloth and cut it. Then I picked up the transom end and folded it back over itself to expose half the bottom to be "painted" with epoxy thinking that opens a fresh 72 hour window.
Half and half.jpg
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When the epoxy is hardened or tacky, I will lift the cloth back into place. I can tell that I will need to cut darts and make folds to get it to lay flat, but will worry about that when I get there. I will then fold back the forward half of the cloth and "paint" the rest of the bottom. I expect to do this either this evening or tomorrow morning. Then I will coat the entire bottom using multiple cups (Thanks Fuzz) and rollers (Thanks OrangeQuest). I can then cover the sides from the chines to the sheers, still within the original 72 hours.
I am considering putting a small electric heater out in the shop under the hull.
I am including a pic of The Faire Eve, who ventured out into the shop this morning...
The Faire Eve.jpg
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Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:05 pm
by OrangeQuest
Caution on heating under the boat and epoxy on the top. As the wood hull warms it can cause bubbles to form under the cloth if the air above the hull is colder. Some of the colder weather guys can advise better. Here in Houston, I am dealing with temps still in the upper 80s and low 90s. But stop all epoxy operations if my temps will get below 60s at night.

Looking really good!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:17 pm
by Fuzz
OrangeQuest is correct that warming wood will release air and cause bubbles in your glass work. In this case it should not be a problem as you have already sealed the wood with a layer of set up epoxy. I would put the heater under the hull a few hours early so the whole thing has warmed up. And leave it there until the epoxy has set if the shop temperature will be below 50f. You want the epoxy to set in a reasonable time so you do not have a lot of drain out.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:27 pm
by Jaysen
I put the heater under the hull at sun up and typically work at end of my day (4p). Leave heater on until next morning (or I’m done with glass). I never noticed bubbles but to Fuzz’s point I coat all my wood with epoxy long before the glass. I’m just using the heated wood to encourage the epoxy.

The concern I’ve started to have is the condensation potential when you remove heat but the epoxy isn’t fully cured. I’ll probably start leaving the heat on until full cure.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:57 pm
by joe2700
I find if you glass over wood at a steady temp or slightly falling temp you get no bubbles, but don't glass while the temp is rising or you get air coming out of the wood making bubbles. So if you are heating the space then heat it early. I actually prefer to do falling temps so would overheat before glassing then turn down the heat a little while doing the work.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:24 am
by VT_Jeff
Hi Pamet,

I've been away from the board for a bit and missed your thread, welcome! I'm down, up, down and then up the road from you in Readsboro VT. Looks like you're well underway and the members have been taking good care of you. I'm jealous of your shop! I build in my basement which I can heat in the winter, but it's a bit of a dungeon.

Keep up the great work!

Jeff

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:24 pm
by PametBW
Hi Jeff! -

Thanks for the welcome (and especially for complimenting my shop). Readsboro truly is one hilly and beautiful part of Vermont - not to mention one of the snowiest ridges in New England!
This forum is an amazing community and it has added great fun to the boatbuilding process. Pretty much every step of the way has been preceded by advice and support from these guys which gives me the confidence to go on. That being said, the processof wetting out the fiberglass cloth today did spiral a little out of control. The results seem okay, but certainly not perfect.
The temperature last night stayed in the 40's, but I placed a small space heater under the hull and turned it on low just about sunrise (per Fuzz's recommendation). It was not until about noon that I was able to get out to the shop.
The cloth was already laying on the hull in a way that seemed smooth enough to get to work so I started mixing the epoxy, pouring it on the cloth, and spreading it with a 6" roller. When I got to the vertical parts I used my brand new 4" x 8" plastic tub, as advised by OrangeQuest.

One decision that I made (and now question) was to start out with one length of cloth running the length of the boat from bow to transom. It was not until I started the wetting process that I noticed the first foot or so of the cloth was sort of a tangled mess. This was the part that would match up with the sheer of the transom. I ended cutting it off and making a little bit of a mess back there. I did cut little dart-slits in the cloth so some of the cloth folded from the sides back around the corner (visible in the first pic) and made a second layer of cloth on the transom:
wetted cloth transom.jpg
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The other place that came together a little roughly was the bow. I tried to cut the cloth so that the cloth on the starboard side lined up with the bow and the port side overlapped that by a couple of inches. There are definitely a couple of little bubbles, but it looked far worse at times of the process:
wet cloth starboard side of bow.jpg
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wet cloth portside of bow.jpg
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The sides and the keel are not perfect, but look less problematic than the ends of the boat. The pics do show the imperfect shape of the 50" cloth that leaves much of the sides uncovered. It would not have been possible to get the cloth cut and installed - even if I knew the answers to the questions (below):
wet cloth keel.jpg
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wet cloth fwd port.jpg
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The temps tonight are forecast to bottom out in the upper 40's, so I plan to repeat the Fuzz method of start the heater at sunrise and let it warm the boat and shop for a couple of hours. Then I plan to cut pieces of cloth to match the sides (which I wetted today with the roller) and complete the general process of covering the outside of the hull with cloth. I do have a couple of questions that I would love to ask:
When I put cloth on the sides, should the cloth stop at the chine or cover the seam and some of the bottom of the hull?
It seems clear to me that I will not be able to run the cloth over the sheer so it folds into the inside of the hull because gravity will pull it into a hanging position. Is that thinking correct, that I should just run the cloth to the sheer?
The third question is about what to do with the air bubbles after everything sets up, but I think I might be better off emotionally if I reserve that question for later (that is just me thinking I am funny...).
Thank You all for your help!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:04 am
by Fuzz
From what I can see you did pretty good getting the glass down. That was a lot of glass for a new builder. You will get better as you go along. Everyone who has built more than one boat will tell you things get better with practice.. It is hard to see the bubbles you are speaking about so maybe post some pictures of those spots. Most folks will cut a piece to fill in the missing areas. Do not try to wrap it over and back up, all you will get is a mess. You can let the edge run long and either trim it while still green with a razor knife or let it go off and then trim it. The places that look rough to you now will clean up pretty quickly with the sander.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:59 pm
by Dan_Smullen
That glass doesn't look too bad. You're fine...

You can drill holes in bubbles, one for entry, and one for relief, and inject thickened epoxy into the void. It is really rather satisfying, and much more fun than grinding them down and covering.

Looking at the sides, I would perhaps sand the edges of the glass on the sides, and lay a new sheet over the side dry. Pin it or hold it in place overlapping the chine, and then mark it with a sharpie where you would like to cut it. Overlap at the chine is good, and some margin of overlap, 3"-4", at the existing glass is good too. A squeegee applied layer of thickened epoxy on the cured edges of existing glass will fill any small voids that would otherwise turn into air pockets under the glass you will lay on the sides. Let hang over the chine, and as Fuzz said, trim it when it is still green, or even cured.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:18 am
by PametBW
Covering the sides of the hull took longer than I had predicted, but I had a lovely day to do it (75 degrees). It was also much messier than I thought. The dripline of epoxy on the floor made me feel like a toddler but very grateful to Pee Wee for advising me to put down some resin paper to protect the shop floor!
cloth down port side looking aft.jpg
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Before I started the process of putting cloth on the sides I had a chance to survey the previous work in the cold, cruel light of day and was surprised by how good it looked. That Fuzz couldn't see all the bubbles I had imagined was accurate. The lighter (white) spots that I thought were bubbles did not seem like air pockets or voids, they did not move when I pushed them with a screwdriver. That made me feel pretty good, so I started mixing epoxy and trying to get it on the sides - despite appearances I was not just pouring it on the floor... Actually, I started the process by following Dan's advice and mixing up some putty to smooth the surface at the edges of the cloth that I had just put on the bottom. That was really great advice, when I went around the boat it was easy to see that it would have been impossible to get a layer of cloth to have good contact in some places. The darker putty is visible under the fresh cloth in this pic.
starboard side looking forward.jpg
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Overlapping the chine by 3-4 inches was another great piece of advice from Dan. As most of you know, it is much easier to get the cloth to stay in place if it is not all vertical; the horizontal edge really helps hold it in place. I am sure that it will also make the boat stronger but honestly, right now my focus is on one simple task at a time. It will be nice to be able to appreciate the big picture, but that is somewhere down the line...
One thing that I did that will save me some time and meterials was to measure the liquids in cups but pour them into a plastic tub, the kind that OrangeQuest recommended and mix them in the tub. That let me use just one pair of cups for hours of work. I know that didn't save me much, but it definitely reduced the number of cylindrical epoxy castings that would have been sitting around the shop. The plastic tub with the rollers is a really good match for me. One work pattern that I used was to use the roller to transport the liquid to the cloth and to smooth it out while holding the tub immediately beneath the shear edge to catch the liquid draining off the side.
I do have a question about the use of rollers. I think they are a great tool but, by the time I get finished applying epoxy the early batches seem to have welded the roller to the handle. I have used both my roller handles twice and ended up with the roller permanently attached to the handle both times. This time I had to use my 12" handle with the 9" roller. I remembered to try to pull it off immediately when the work session was finished (admittedly, last time I left it on overnight which was obviously unwise). Please let me know.
1. How do you get the rollers off the handles?

The other question that I have is about Dan's suggestion about drilling holes (the two holes makes sense to me) and injecting putty into any voids. I am wondering:
2. What tool do you use to inject the putty?

I am going to post the other pics that I took of this work session below, but really want to say THANK YOU! Getting out in the shop and trying to learn to build boats has really made my life richer. It does add some level of stress to life, but it is kind of a creative stress (in reality the stakes are pretty low) which I think makes life more interesting. I also really appreciate the sense of community that you all have created in this forum. The support and advice make my life better every single day. Thanks again.
starboard side of bow.jpg
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port side of bow.jpg
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port side mid to stern.jpg
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Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:32 am
by Dougster
Sure looks good to me. Re getting the rollers off the handles, I just grab the roller with my gloved hand when finished, well before the epoxy kicks off and pull. Dito on this comunity and the creative stress enriching life.

Dougster

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:58 pm
by Dan_Smullen
PametBW wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:18 am

The other question that I have is about Dan's suggestion about drilling holes (the two holes makes sense to me) and injecting putty into any voids. I am wondering:
2. What tool do you use to inject the putty?
Last ordered by me, March 2021, and I still have a few left in the drawer.
https://www.amazon.com/Frienda-Measurem ... _d_rp_15_t

Progress looks great. 3 Years ago this was all new to me too. To be able to give good advice based on my experience makes me feel good to. We are all glad to help. When I started on this forum, the objective advice from the core group on here was indeed notable.

In the midst of the project, therapy came to me within the need to focus on the micro detail. One could go mad looking at every minute step of this boat building process, but in focusing o the simplest of tasks, drilling a hole in a bubble, we can usually enjoy some success. This process also teaches us new techniques to be used in other building and thinking exercises.

You are in good company! Keep it up, and enjoy that you are almost 1/8 of the way to completion!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm
by PametBW
Thanks Dan! It feels like very good company indeed.
I've been away for a few days and hope to get the rub rail built up and in place before the low temperatures move me on to other projects for the winter.
The steps, as I see them include:
1. Remove the fiberglass that dripped beyond the sheer to the edge of the sheer. My first choice of a tool is a Sander with a gritty (80 or 60) disk.
2. Sand the side of the boat on which the rub rail will be glued because the epoxy below has been curing for a week.
3. Glue and clamp the first of three layers of 1/4" plywood using straight epoxy starting from the bow. (I do wonder if it would be wise to use putty where the surface is not perfectly flat...???). Starting at the bow lets me control the overlap without precise measuring.
4. Obviously I don't have strips that match the length of the boat. The longest strips I will have to work with are 8'. I plan to make simple butt-joints where the strips meet.
5. Offset the joints so there are no joints immediately on top of the one below.
6. I won't worry about the length of the rail during the process. I believe it is okay to simply run them long and cut them later.
7. Continue the process for the 2nd and 3rd layers of plywood
8. After researching this step, as managed on other build threads, maybe I should start by going out and buying 60 spring clamps...

Questions:
Should I use some putty under the first layer of plywood?
Is it best to cut an angle into the bow-end of the strip before gluing it in place or is it best to glue it on and cut it later?
Please do give me any advice on this process, especially regarding how to handle the spot on the bow where the rails meet.
Thank You!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:16 pm
by VT_Jeff
Hi Pamet,

Here are some of my thoughts for you, worth every bit of the bytes they are printed on.
PametBW wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm 1. Remove the fiberglass that dripped beyond the sheer to the edge of the sheer. My first choice of a tool is a Sander with a gritty (80 or 60) disk.
Fully-cured epoxy is much easier(and healthier) to sand/grind than epoxy that is at all green. Keep this in mind.
PametBW wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm 2. Sand the side of the boat on which the rub rail will be glued because the epoxy below has been curing for a week.
Yeah, just need to take the shine off it and key it with some 60. For future reference, not a bad idea to mask this area before glassing so you're bonding wood to wood, if you prefer that type of bond.
PametBW wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm 3. Glue and clamp the first of three layers of 1/4" plywood using straight epoxy starting from the bow. (I do wonder if it would be wise to use putty where the surface is not perfectly flat...???). Starting at the bow lets me control the overlap without precise measuring.
I would not use raw epoxy for this, I would use a thickened mixture. I used gel-magic for this type of bonding work, but you can just thicken some epoxy with wood flour, keep it pretty wet. Ideally you would pre-coat the raw wood surfaces with un-thickened epoxy to avoid dry-suck.
PametBW wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm 4. Obviously I don't have strips that match the length of the boat. The longest strips I will have to work with are 8'. I plan to make simple butt-joints where the strips meet.
45 degrees will work here.
PametBW wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm 5. Offset the joints so there are no joints immediately on top of the one below.
6. I won't worry about the length of the rail during the process. I believe it is okay to simply run them long and cut them later.
7. Continue the process for the 2nd and 3rd layers of plywood
8. After researching this step, as managed on other build threads, maybe I should start by going out and buying 60 spring clamps...

Questions:

Should I use some putty under the first layer of plywood?
If you use a thickened mixture, it won't matter.
PametBW wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:13 pm Is it best to cut an angle into the bow-end of the strip before gluing it in place or is it best to glue it on and cut it later?
Please do give me any advice on this process, especially regarding how to handle the spot on the bow where the rails meet.
Alternate the strips at the bow: port long/starboard nested, then starboard long/port nested, then port long/starboard nested. Cut the long piece to length before the next layer. Pilot this method with some scrap, it's simpler in practice than in explanation.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:29 pm
by VT_Jeff
Btw, I would only do one layer at a time, let it partially cure to where you can safely remove clamos, then start the next. I would def not attempt 3 or even 2 layers in one session. Maybe the pros would, but I would not.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:01 am
by PametBW
Wow Jeff! Thanks, you made my day already.
All of your suggestions make perfect sense to me, especially nesting and alternating long/short layers... actually especially practicing the process makes the most sense of all to me.
I think that Reid recommended/sent me some gel-magic that I put on a shelf and forgot about because I didn't know what it was or what to do with it... psyched to look in the shop and see.
Your reply is exactly what I needed to get started; I got kind of bogged down yesterday trying to visualize what to do next but now I am looking forward to the next steps.
Thanks again!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:02 am
by cape man
60 is a lot, but impossible to have too many clamps in the shop! Have missed this build till now but your work looks fantastic, your attitude is perfect, and yes...this forum is the bomb! Keep on building!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:48 am
by OrangeQuest
That many spring clamps I would recommend a cheap plastic box to keep them all in. Then you just grab the box and go to where you need them.

If you put one every 6" on a 14' boat that is 26 to 28 clamps per side. If you do both sides at a time, one layer, then it isn't to many. But I don't think you will need that many either. But having more than you need is not as bad as not having enough when you do need them. And to keep the hand grip sides clean have a helper do the clamps. Somehow you will always grab a few with wet epoxy on your gloves that will transfer to the clamp. A little tape wrapped around the tips help with keeping that end clean but putting tape on 60 clamps is very time consuming and sometimes you have to dig tape out of your mix. My opinion is the more stuff from past projects that are on your clamps the more experience they have. :lol:

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:11 am
by VT_Jeff
Regarding clamps. If you actually want to buy 60 spring clamps, power to ya, But I think it's way overkill for this. You can make simple U-clamps/wedges out of scrap plywood for this purpose, you don't need a ton of tension. You can also just use screws and fill the holes afterwards. Just food for thought.

To use screws, make some big washers. start with,say, a 3 foot long strip of scrap plywood or solid wood about the same width as your rail. Cover one side and edges with packing tape. Drill a hole every 2 inches or so through the tape side. hole should be just smaller than the head of your screws. Cut the strip into pieces. Now you have a bunch of "washers" you can use to clamp the rail to the boat.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:36 am
by cape man
and then there's this...

Image

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:21 pm
by VT_Jeff
cape man wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:36 am and then there's this...

Image
YES!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:35 pm
by PametBW
Wow!
Thanks for all the clamp ideas and examples and for the welcome Cape Man.
Improvising is something I truly admire and love to dabble in when I have confidence. Both the pvc clamp idea from OrangeQuest and screw/fender washer idea from Jeff are like genius ideas - and I already have the perfect box for holding small clamps (from the 6 pack of boxes for spreading epoxy with a roller)
Before I read the build thread, my day started with a trip to the store to buy a pile of clamps.
By the time I got into the shop and sanded away the dangling fiberglass from the top of the sheer, the echoes of something Jeff wrote sounded more and more like wisdom. At this age, I am hoping to acquire the trait of learning from other people's mistakes (and experiences) instead of learning by repeating their mistakes...
Bottom line, the strips that I cut for the purpose of making rails looked very dry. Although I don't have personal experience with epoxy "dry suck", I don't want to take this apart to reassemble it because I skipped an important step.
As much as I wanted to get started with gluing the strips on the boat, I decided to mix up a batch of epoxy and paint the strips so they will be dry (to the touch) and wet (for reacting with the gel-magic) all at the same time. I swear I have learned more vocabulary trying to build a boat than most kids learn in their first year of studying a foreign language...
Thanks again for all the help!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:23 am
by cape man
Precoating all wood with epoxy is a must for this build method. Takes an extra step and if you wait more than a day to glue or lay down glass it takes another step of sanding to get a mechanical bond but the strength and comfort you achieve is worth it. You can visualize the issue by seeing how much neat epoxy the wood soaks up.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:50 am
by PametBW
Thanks Cape Man - learning is always fun and the teaching done on this forum is the best kind of learning.
To my mind it reveals aspects of the world that make perfect sense, but is mostly stuff I could never have thought of on my own.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:15 am
by VT_Jeff
At the risk of over-analyzing, I do want to point out that Gel-magic does not require pre-coating according to their instructions, and also that gel-magic, per my understanding, is not compatible with MarinEpoxy.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:22 am
by Dan_Smullen
VT_Jeff wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:15 am At the risk of over-analyzing, I do want to point out that Gel-magic does not require pre-coating according to their instructions, and also that gel-magic, per my understanding, is not compatible with MarinEpoxy.
Definitely some benefits to using the out of the can solution.

If you mix epoxy and wood flour, I recommend thickening until "almost not soupy anymore" with wood flour, then thickening further to peanut butter with cabosil. It sounds more tedious than it is, and with some practice you will recognize how too much wood flour will make the mix too dry, but the silica adds thickness without adding dryness. :lol:

Take a minute too to clamp a run of rub rail in place, and then back up and take a look to get an idea of what the shear line will look like. This is a good time to make any adjustments if you care. It doesn't necessarily need to be flush with the edge of the side panel. That's all going to get filled in and planed fair later.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:16 am
by PametBW
Trying to be well-set-up before attaching the first layer of the rub rail gave me some confidence, but there were still a lot of unknowns. It was a little unnerving to see Gel Magic for the first time and be using it to permanently (I hope) attach a piece of rub rail to the boat.
Dan's recommendation of clamping the rail in place and really looking at it was a really good insight and a useful step for me. His suggestion to see how it looks and to move it according to my preference was a novel idea to me; I have simply been trying to be like an assembly-line worker and not mess anything up.
At any rate, I decided that it would go best if I ran the rail below the sheer-line at the bow and make it flush further aft.
r rail layer 1 strbrd side bow.jpg
r rail layer 1 strbrd side bow.jpg (121.97 KiB) Viewed 690 times
r rail layer 1 port side bow.jpg
r rail layer 1 port side bow.jpg (130.95 KiB) Viewed 690 times
The camera angle shows this less well (it also might not line up perfectly with the starboard side...).
While the first layer seemed to go pretty well, I definitely had some concerns:
- After initially clamping it pretty tightly at the bow I worried that I might have squeezed out too much gel magic; I had read about the dangers of starving it for epoxy, but don't know how to gauge and find the sweet spot.
- The temperature in the yard dipped into the mid 30's overnight so I ran the space heater under the hull but it felt very cold in the boat shop this morning when I went out to take pics. I left the doors open to let in sunlight - but the actual temperatures and how they will impact the gel magic are big unknowns to me.
- After finishing up yesterday I realized that I had sanded the surface to get it prep it for the adhesive but had failed to wipe it down well. If I could go back, I would probably wipe it with a light rag dampened with 98% alcohol. I don't really know what solvent would have been recommend and I don't think there was a lot of residue left over from the sanding, but am definitely kicking myself for neglecting this step.
Although I have never done this before and am not really sure what other mistakes I made, overall, I like the way the rail looks:
r rail layer 1 strbrd mid.jpg
r rail layer 1 strbrd mid.jpg (112.96 KiB) Viewed 690 times
r rail layer 1 port mid.jpg
r rail layer 1 port mid.jpg (116.2 KiB) Viewed 690 times
rub rail layer 1 rear strbrd .jpg
rub rail layer 1 rear strbrd .jpg (132.59 KiB) Viewed 690 times
rub rail layer 1 rear port.jpg
rub rail layer 1 rear port.jpg (116.51 KiB) Viewed 690 times
One thing that went really well was to follow Jeff's advice to cut a 45 degree angle into the rails where they will butt up against each other. That was a great idea - Thanks Jeff!
The last concern is a small gap between a rough spot at the where the starboard sheer and the transom meet. I don't know if this is something that needs my attention now. I bought some of the syringes that Jeff uses to fill voids and am considering trying to get some gel magic into one and then trying to squirt it into that spot. Please let me know if you have any thoughts or advice about that, or anything else.
Here is the gap in a top view and side view:
r rail gap strbrd transom topview.jpg
r rail gap strbrd transom topview.jpg (75.65 KiB) Viewed 690 times
r rail gap strprd transom sideview.jpg
r rail gap strprd transom sideview.jpg (65.71 KiB) Viewed 690 times
My plan is to use this last warm day (for now) to get another layer (or even both of them) on before it gets cold. I am going to continue with gel magic, although it has crossed my mind that epoxy might be a good alternative.
Thanks again!

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:31 pm
by cape man
Use the syringe and push the gel magic in with a putty knife until it starts coming out the other side.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 1:14 pm
by PametBW
It has been almost a year, with some medical bumps along the way, since I have made a post or any progress but I am hoping to do some work on the boat and get it turned over before winter.
At this point, it is fair to say that I am struggling a little with the project and hoping for some advice and guidance. At this point I feel like kind of a parasite in this community but I hope to become healthy enough and knowledgeable enough to be a contributor in the future. Thanks.

The next steps that I hope to make include:
cut the rubrails
give the hull a good sanding
fair the using Three Systems "Quik Fair"
sand that layer
apply a layer of primer
install the skeg

QuikFair:
As I have never built a boat before, I have never used QuikFair before. I am imagining that it is similar to spreading bondo over coarse bodywork. My objective is to keep it thin and put down a couple of coats. To my mind the goal of this step is to make the hull smooth so friction with the water is reduced. I have not been able to find any videos of folks using QuickFair and am hoping that someone will recommend a resource that I can use before mixing and spreading.
ANY RECOMMENDATIONS OF RESOURCES?
SKEG:
The only information that I see about the skeg is that it is 1"x1"x 96, ends 12" forward of the transom, and is tapered at the front.
It seems that my choices are to rip some pine to use for the skeg or to build it from plywood. There are some scraps from the rubrail that I could glue into a 1x1x96 inch skeg, which is probably more durable. Either way, I am not sure how to install it. Left to my own devices, I would attach it with epoxy and hold it down with a weighted board (I can't think of a way to clamp it). I will try to do this in the next few days and am hoping that someone can guide me in the process.
WHAT SHALL I USE FOR THE SKEG?
HOW DO YOU RECOMMEND THAT I ATTACH IT?

This is what I see when I go out to the shop...
IMG_0156.JPG
IMG_0157.JPG
IMG_0158.JPG
IMG_0159.JPG

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:49 pm
by Buz
I can only help with the last part. I've only put on one skeg myself, this is what I'd do.

If the boat has a straight run for the last 9 feet you can glue on the 96x1x1 skeg in one piece, using weight for clamping. But dont use so much weight you squeeze out too much resin-glue and starve the joint.

If the skeg reaches forward far enough to get onto the bent part of the bottom, I'd build it up with the ply, gluing and "clamping" one layer at a time to follow the contour.

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:18 am
by Dougster
I used a couple of straps around the boat to hold the skeg on. Regarding quickfair. Mix up 3 Tbs (2 resin, 1 hardener) and spead it on the boat. Let it dry and and it mostly off (5 miutes trouble). You'll now have a feeling for how it works.

Dougster

Re: Pamet FS14

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 10:15 am
by jbo_c
I recently used QF for the first time and posted my experiences in the “Resins, fiberglass, and paint” section.

Jbo