DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

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greatlakesmann
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DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by greatlakesmann »

Really taking a hard look at these two boats, I like the DE23 as it's a bit smaller, but I really like the DE25 cabin for the bigger cabin and separated head compartment, seems more like a small hotel room on a hull. Which would you recommend?

Also, are these decent offshore? I would be out on Lake Michigan mostly with this, at some I would like to take the entire shore all the way around and across the lake as well, I know both the bows are very tall and they are not open bow, so they would lend themselves well to waves. They are self bailing and I would add floatation foam. Would any of you have reservations about taking either of these "offshore?" Forget I said Lake Michigan, how well would these hold up offshore in the ocean? Obviously not a huge 54 foot yacht, but I would assume it could take some punishment.

Some general questions about boat building:
Would you do it again?

How long did it take you, compared to the plans?

Which boat did you build and how much roughly did it cost?

How much swearing, blood, sweat and tears went into building it? Was it worth it in the end?

Would you have rather bought something similar pre built?

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BarraMan
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by BarraMan »

Really taking a hard look at these two boats, I like the DE23 as it's a bit smaller, but I really like the DE25 cabin for the bigger cabin and separated head compartment, seems more like a small hotel room on a hull. Which would you recommend?
I can't really comment on the DE's but while bigger may seem better, bigger also means more $$$$$! 8O
Some general questions about boat building:
Would you do it again?
Yes!
How long did it take you, compared to the plans?
About 4 yrs - very much part-time!
Which boat did you build and how much roughly did it cost?
The Mangusta 20 - up-scaled all around by 10% (ie 20' to 22') and with a heavily modified cockpit and decks!
It cost about US$25,000 for the finished bare hull!
How much swearing, blood, sweat and tears went into building it?

Very little - I just kept working away at it!
Was it worth it in the end?
Absolutely!
Would you have rather bought something similar pre built?
No! Not possible anyway - my boat is unique!

jbo_c
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by jbo_c »

I have no recommendations for which boat, but do have thoughts about building.

In my mind there are really only a couple of reasons to build a boat:
1). You REALLY want to build a boat. - as in, you’d probably still want to build it even if you knew you’d never get to sail it. This speaks to a (sometimes overwhelming) desire to create something or be the one responsible for DOING something. I think this is why you’ll find so many of the successful builders here and other places build more than one - sometimes a lot more. To at least some degree, you need to be looking forward to the build as much as you are to the use.
2) The boat, or at least the boat with the layout you want/need, doesn’t exist.

#2 isn’t entirely necessary, but at least some degree of #1 is. My opinion is that if you don’t have at least a little bit of #1 in you, you’ll either dislike the build or be unsuccessful in finishing it 99% of the time.

(If you really just want to get on the water, I suggest buying a boat ready to sail.)

You should plan on it taking longer and more money than you expect to do a good job of building a boat of any size. That’s a part of why #1 is so important. Even if you’re clipping along nicely, a lot of life can happen during the time it takes to build. For instance, this year, I lost 90% of what could have been build time to remodeling a house for my daughter’s family. I didn’t see that coming when I started the build, so now my “build” is going to take an extra year. (Poop)

If you want to build, there will be no finer and more satisfying experience and you won’t find a more supportive and helpful group than the staff and builders here.

My opinions. Worth what you paid(or maybe a little less).

Jbo

TomW1
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by TomW1 »

For Lake Michigan go with the DE25 the extra 2' will do you well if you get caught out when a sudden storm blows up as they can on the Great Lakes. :) I grew up on Lake Erie, so I know. The DE25 will also give you more room on your cruise around the lake and a more comfortable ride in most conditions.

If this is your first build do a small build first like a cheap canoe or similar first to get used to handling fiberglass and epoxy. Finally expect to add an extra year to the time, things come up and wait times are not aways built in. As far as costs they vary based on how much you use and vary from the design as a first time builder you will use more epoxy so count on that. Then you have to start adding on all the other things that you need to make your boat complete, another 20-30000 dollars depending on the motor you buy.

Tom
Restored Mirror Dinghy, Bought OD18 built by CL, Westlawn School of Yacht Design courses. LT US Navy 1970-1978

fallguy1000
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by fallguy1000 »

Either boat is great, a marine head is best, these boats are only good for about 4' seas, after that you'll want to get to shore.
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David Sours
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by David Sours »

I have the DE 25, the long cockpit version, not the long cabin version with the head. I think a head could've been added by shrinking the galley flat and putting the head on the starboard side next to the companion way. Mine is the blue hull you see in the pictures on this website. I've owned the boat for 12 1/2 years and still love it. I cheated and had it professionally built. It took 6 months. If I had tried to build it, I'd still be working on it. Instead, I've had 12 great years with it. I use it on Puget Sound, AKA the Salish Sea. Here, I'm able to duck out of really nasty weather and at my age, I don't need to take any on anymore. If I were younger, I wouldn't hesitate to take this boat to Alaska with a few modifications. Let me preface these first by saying, and this is really important, the boat is designed to be LIGHT. As designed it is VERY strong. DO NOT "over build it" thinking you are making it strong. You may be making it stronger, but mostly, you're just screwing up the design. You'll need a bigger engine (weight), more fuel (weight), in addition to the materials to overbuild it (weight, weight). If I planned to take it to Alaska, when it was built, I would have raised the cockpit sole about 2 inches (almost no weight gain). I would enlarge the scuppers and add 2 more further forward. I would lash down a water tight storage (for light things) box in the cockpit (reducing the volume). I would make sure I had a strong companionway door and the ability to leave a 12" to 18" drop board at the bottom of the companionway if the door was open., With those relatively simple modifications, this boat could do Alaska safely. As far as cost is concerned, look at the plywood and epoxy kit packages on this website. I could guess at the consumables, hardware and equipment you'll need like motor, steering, windows etc, etc, ad infinitum but it would be just that, a guess. But really, I can't say enough about what a great boat this is. It is extremely roomy and comfortable. It handles chop very well. It's a very dry boat. I'll make one more comment instead of blabing on forever. As designed (light), this boat transitions from hull speed to planing seamlessly. There is NO climbing "out of the hole". The boat just rises as it accelerates and goes faster. With no trim tabs or wings on the outboard it can cruise at 6 knts, 7, 8, 9, 10, or faster, This means that in a chop, you can go 8 knots and take the chop on you pointy nose and not on the bottom with your nose pointed in the air.
I encourage you to go for it. Build it yourself if you have skills and time to do it. Get help along the way if you need to. Or have it built. No matter what you choose. The boats worth it.

greatlakesmann
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by greatlakesmann »

David Sours wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:49 am I have the DE 25, the long cockpit version, not the long cabin version with the head. I think a head could've been added by shrinking the galley flat and putting the head on the starboard side next to the companion way. Mine is the blue hull you see in the pictures on this website. I've owned the boat for 12 1/2 years and still love it. I cheated and had it professionally built. It took 6 months. If I had tried to build it, I'd still be working on it. Instead, I've had 12 great years with it. I use it on Puget Sound, AKA the Salish Sea. Here, I'm able to duck out of really nasty weather and at my age, I don't need to take any on anymore. If I were younger, I wouldn't hesitate to take this boat to Alaska with a few modifications. Let me preface these first by saying, and this is really important, the boat is designed to be LIGHT. As designed it is VERY strong. DO NOT "over build it" thinking you are making it strong. You may be making it stronger, but mostly, you're just screwing up the design. You'll need a bigger engine (weight), more fuel (weight), in addition to the materials to overbuild it (weight, weight). If I planned to take it to Alaska, when it was built, I would have raised the cockpit sole about 2 inches (almost no weight gain). I would enlarge the scuppers and add 2 more further forward. I would lash down a water tight storage (for light things) box in the cockpit (reducing the volume). I would make sure I had a strong companionway door and the ability to leave a 12" to 18" drop board at the bottom of the companionway if the door was open., With those relatively simple modifications, this boat could do Alaska safely. As far as cost is concerned, look at the plywood and epoxy kit packages on this website. I could guess at the consumables, hardware and equipment you'll need like motor, steering, windows etc, etc, ad infinitum but it would be just that, a guess. But really, I can't say enough about what a great boat this is. It is extremely roomy and comfortable. It handles chop very well. It's a very dry boat. I'll make one more comment instead of blabing on forever. As designed (light), this boat transitions from hull speed to planing seamlessly. There is NO climbing "out of the hole". The boat just rises as it accelerates and goes faster. With no trim tabs or wings on the outboard it can cruise at 6 knts, 7, 8, 9, 10, or faster, This means that in a chop, you can go 8 knots and take the chop on you pointy nose and not on the bottom with your nose pointed in the air.
I encourage you to go for it. Build it yourself if you have skills and time to do it. Get help along the way if you need to. Or have it built. No matter what you choose. The boats worth it.
Thank you for the detailed reply, if I may ask, how did you go about having it professionally built? Where would I go to look for something similar? I
am in the Midwest, Wisconsin side of Lake Michigan lol. Having it built is a route I have considered. I really like the design and I haven't found a design it's equal, pre built, yet. I'm sure they're out there, but judging by the cost of a smaller boat that I found, that has fewer features, I would wager there is a similar design, but it must be upwards of 300k. I could buy used, but that opens up another can of worms.

Matt Gent
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by Matt Gent »

David Sours wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:49 am If I planned to take it to Alaska, when it was built, I would have raised the cockpit sole about 2 inches (almost no weight gain). I would enlarge the scuppers and add 2 more further forward. I would lash down a water tight storage (for light things) box in the cockpit (reducing the volume). I would make sure I had a strong companionway door and the ability to leave a 12" to 18" drop board at the bottom of the companionway if the door was open.,
Mine is full transom + bracket. It sits with the scuppers 3-4” above the water when empty, but can get near waterline loaded. Another 2” would help to stay dry when entertaining in the cockpit at anchor.

I have a drop board but have never put it in place. It never gets water on deck if moving forward.

fallguy1000
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by fallguy1000 »

I fished out of Algoma a couple times in a 16' skiff a couple times. Lotsa fun.
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David Sours
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Re: DE23 or DE25 Cabin?

Post by David Sours »

Greatlakesman,
Sorry I took long to get back.
To find someone to build it for you.....I went to my local wooden boat festival (Port Townsend) with a set of the study plans. I just visited a number of booths and asked questions. At the "Systems 3" (epoxy) booth the gentleman looked at my plans, consulted his partner and said "I'll bet James would build that for you, I'll give him a call." I talked to James, sent him a copy of the actual plans, he came back with a number and tada!! He started in February and I took delivery July 1.
Another option...Check the classified advertising in "Woodenboat". I've noticed many more ads from people who will build "stitch and glue" and "composite" boats than I used to see.
One more idea..Find a helper... friend, relative or any one interested in your project. I'm about to finish an 18' sailboat and, knowing myself, I "hired" an acquaintance (now a friend) to help me. I pay him per hour. He helps me by being another set of hands, a problem solver, and by keeping the momentum going. The boat is turning out beautiful. Perhaps, in your area, there is a Jr college or Vocational skills center with a carpentry program. I'll bet the instructor can recommend a student who needs the money, is a self starter and has some skills.
You are absolutely right about the availability of a similar design. There are none that I know of and they would be 300K if there were.
Buy the CNC kit. It's worth it. Everything fits. You don't have to wonder. The time saving is huge.
Good luck and keep at it. DS

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