Boat Builder Central - Builder Forums

I really appreciate all of your responses, originally I had thought about going with the DE25, and that lead me to ask what would be a good smaller boat to try to build first, and a lot of you mentioned the C17 as a good starter, or the C17 as a in between a smaller, starter boat and the DE25. Please bear with me here as I'm trying to narrow down what design I should be looking at.

However, I am thinking the DE25 might be a bit overkill for what I'm looking for and that the P19 might be a better option overall. Ideally, I'd like to be able to take the P19 to smaller inland lakes as well as take it on Lake Michigan, on possibly some not so nice days. I am wondering if the DE25 might be too large for this type of use case, maybe a DE23?

We currently have an 18 foot fiberglass bow rider that I have taken on short jaunts out on Lake Michigan, so I am familiar with a boat of this size. I feel comfortable using an open bow boat in rougher waters, and I've been in some good 3-4 foot rolling waves that were starting to stack up. However, I feel like a closed bow boat with self bailing capacity will handle these conditions even better. Even if you were to take water over the bow, it can't come in, and the self bailing ability will handle any rain or spray. However, there are some days where it's just too cold to be out on a bowrider, so while the hull handles the water fine, on colder days, it can be downright nasty. I'd like a pilothouse with windows that open, so I can either cool off, or warm up.

I'd still like to keep the "lake hopping" capability to take the boat and trailer out to a lake measured in acres (one of our favorite lakes is a long, skinny lake measuring around 450 acres), but also something that wouldn't shy away from a trip down the coast to Chicago for the day. I'm thinking something in the 19-26 foot range. I would also want to take this out on Lake Winnebago, which is another nasty lake. It's very long and wide, but shallow (only 21ft at it's deepest), so it can turn nasty in a heartbeat. 3 foot chop and breaking waves are not uncommon. I have not seen this personally, but from what I have heard, she can be a very fickle mistress.

Would the P19 be able to handle 3-4 footers? Again, my purpose is not exactly to throw caution to the wind, but I am limited in the amount of days I can go out, depending on the forecast. I would like to "open the window" of days that I can reasonably go out. I'm crazy yes, but if it really was too rough, I'd turn around. Ideally, I want a boat that I can take in some sloppy seas and handle it well enough. Or would the DE23/DE25 be better suited to handling larger waves? I hate looking at the forecast and thinking "guess I'm not taking the boat out on LM today..."

I also like the idea of pilot house and cuddy for when the wind blows, the rain pours, or it's just too damn cold to be outside. I don't think I would be staying overnight for extended periods of time, but I would like a pilothouse to get out of the weather, a head, and somewhere to sleep, even if not overnight, it may be nice on a long day trip to drop anchor and take a nap. I am tall, so a sleeping area of over 6'4" would be preferred.

If you were to build a pilot house/cuddy cabin with the intention of taking it "offshore" on the Great Lakes, where you might see 4-5 foot waves, what boat would you build? I want to keep the ability to get up and go, so the Maia and the Trawler are out, even though they look great, I imagine I would run myself loony putting along at 6 knots.

Currently the options floating around in my head are as follows, in no particular order: P19, DE23, DE25 Cabin, CX19, CX25. These are a few other options I haven't looked too closely at, but just from a glance, they do look interesting: P21, OP21, NV23, LB26.

My main criteria are: pilothouse, head, cuddy cabin, trailerable (less than 4500lbs total), outboard power.

My apologies for the long post, just want to get some feedback on what might be a good boat in your experience for what I'm looking for.

I think the P21 would work unless you want more room , then the DE23 , these are the two boats between your DE25 and P19 range , both have trade offs . If your in 4' to 5' chop then your not going to go much faster than displacement speed , and the TW28 will start looking real good . The P21 should get you to shelter faster than the DE23 if you have to pull up and run . If your going to drop anchor and ride it out then the DE23 might give a little more comfort .

The C19 is the best all around fishing boat plan sold for big waters that can be used easily on smaller waters. It is a LOT of boat and you could make a portapotty spot in front of the console with some creativity by dropping down onto the hull.

One hull is available started.

The boat is not a simple build, but a heluva nice all around boat. It will not be as safe for Michigan, but you can't fish 4' seas in a DE25 anymore than a C19. Maybe you could try trolling, but probably you won't like getting tossed around the cockpit.

People misunderstand 4' inland seas and 4' swells. A 4' wave on Michigan is almost always in a fast pattern of 4 seconds which is horrible for fishing in anything under 30 feet or so; except maybe downwind trolling. On the ocean, wave periods can be longer which means more reaction time, more pleasant motions.

The c19 borders on too big to chase certain boat shy species, but nothing in Wisconsin or Michigan is super boat shy. Walleyes can be and planer boards can battle that.

My dime..

rick berrey wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:15 pm I think the P21 would work unless you want more room , then the DE23 , these are the two boats between your DE25 and P19 range , both have trade offs . If your in 4' to 5' chop then your not going to go much faster than displacement speed , and the TW28 will start looking real good . The P21 should get you to shelter faster than the DE23 if you have to pull up and run . If your going to drop anchor and ride it out then the DE23 might give a little more comfort .

Do you think the DE25 and the Trawler would perform similarly at hull speed, say, sub-10mph? I think maybe the DE25 paired with my current fiberglass bow rider might split the bill decently. Take the bow rider out on smaller lakes and take the DE25 out on bigger lakes? I suppose it’s hard to say how trailerable the DE25 would be, although the hull weight is 1,750lbs. Add in fuel, trailer, engine and gear you’re probably closer to 3.5k, which would pull fine behind our SUV.

Just food for thought. Hull characteristics aside the DE25 is only 3 feet shorter than the trawler, but I’m not sure how much of a difference those 3 feet make with a displacement hull vs a planing hull, it could be a major difference.

If they would perform similarly at slow speed, I suppose that would tip the scales in favor of the DE25, since it is outboard powered, and can get up and go should I want to get there quicker, which is not an option with the Trawler.

There is not much difference in displacement speed between a 28' hull and 25' hull . You sound like you want a boat big enough to cruise on and not just fish , the DE25 will do that . There is a DE25 being scaled to a 27' , there are pictures of one in the finished boat section that is 29' . So if you want to go big there are builders that can help you along . If you want a fishing boat with a pilothouse then the P21 or the DE23 fits the bill , and you might as well sell the boat you have . But to me it sounds like you want two boats when it comes to intended use , you keep going back to the DE25 , if that is the case I would go with the DE25 .

rick berrey wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:11 pm There is not much difference in displacement speed between a 28' hull and 25' hull . You sound like you want a boat big enough to cruise on and not just fish , the DE25 will do that . There is a DE25 being scaled to a 27' , there are pictures of one in the finished boat section that is 29' . So if you want to go big there are builders that can help you along . If you want a fishing boat with a pilothouse then the P21 or the DE23 fits the bill , and you might as well sell the boat you have . But to me it sounds like you want two boats when it comes to intended use , you keep going back to the DE25 , if that is the case I would go with the DE25 .

I’d like to cruise and fish, would the DE25 be decent for that use? I don’t need a huge space, but the back deck seems big enough to troll and to cast. And I would keep the boat I have, as I can take it to smaller lakes, one near my house is 150 acres or so, I think a 25+ foot boat with a cabin would be a bit much. And you are right, I do seem to be hovering around the DE25, I think that may be the one.

Thanks for your help.

You do not want a 28 trawler for your uses. They are big boats and will not be easy to trailer. Plus real life speed will be around 6 knots. You have to have the need and the right mindset for that style of boat.
The best bang for your buck by far would be to buy Eric's C-21 hull. It is built right and is still unfinished enough to let you finish it like you want. Go to"for sale and anything else" and go through the thread. In his gallery on page 77 you can see him standing in the stern to get an idea of just how big that hull is. I will say that if it was within 2000 miles of me you would not get the chance as me and my truck would already be on the road to get it. And this is coming from a guy that already has two boats in that size class.

The C21 is a great all around boat but it has no pilothouse and cabin , i doubt you can add those without some added design work . While another 3' is a big jump in space from his 18' boat he is not gaining what is lacking on the 18 which is a pilothouse and cabin . I like the LB26 and the Nina22 that was built with the cabin a few years back , either of those boats would do him if they had pilothouses . If the DE25 feels too big then go for the DE23 , that gives you two different platforms with a 5' difference , and it will still look like the DE25 .

For me putting a pilot house on that hull would be no problem. Pretty sure he could get everything he has asked for from the C-21 hull. If he could live without a sleeping area, or at least a cramped one, the rest of his asks is doable. For some reason I seem to do a lot of fishing in lumpy weather and what Jayen calls "forken cold" so I understand those asks.
And yes one of the bigger designs would have some advantages but also a much longer build time. I just think Eric's C-21 is one nice build and at an almost give away price.

Plans for Pilothouse consoles are sold on this site. It's not a hard job to make them wider or longer. You could add a small cabin space in front and have a walkaround.

Deleted.

First of all, I am sorry. I cited the C19 in my comment, but I meant the C21.

Up here in Minnesota, most all the boats use a walk though windshield and a side console with a soft top to break the splash, wind, and rain. This would be easy with a C21, but would make the porta potty much harder to build in, although I've been on Hurrricane 24 that had a nice setup; it probably had wider and deeper hull forefoot making that possible.

The DE25 is a lot of boat for an SUV. I have a cheap trailer you could buy for it here in the Twin Cities. Nice dual wheels from a Starfire 24. No title, needs to be registered homemade which it will be after you get into it enough to bunk the DE. But it ain't a trailer for an SUV. If you were going to use an SUV; it'd need quite a lot of towing unless you went with an ultralight aluminum trailer, and even then, the boat will be driving you some. I hate trailering stuff bigger than me. It just never feels right. Eric's C21 has a light aluminum trailer iirc.

The DE25 could be made lighter by not making the long cabin version and not overbuilding the internals, but this is tricky for amateurs. It is a 2-3 year long project and you'll need a big enough garage for the top.

Anyhow, the C21 with a soft bimini over a windshield would be a pretty good boat that you could fish from well. The only downside would be making a spot for porta potty And a softtop would be tricky.

The DE series boats can even have a coffee pot inside, so the amenities are pretty nice if you want to make a coffee while underway to fish at 4:30am.

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:36 am First of all, I am sorry. I cited the C19 in my comment, but I meant the C21.

Up here in Minnesota, most all the boats use a walk though windshield and a side console with a soft top to break the splash, wind, and rain. This would be easy with a C21, but would make the porta potty much harder to build in, although I've been on Hurrricane 24 that had a nice setup; it probably had wider and deeper hull forefoot making that possible.

The DE25 is a lot of boat for an SUV. I have a cheap trailer you could buy for it here in the Twin Cities. Nice dual wheels from a Starfire 24. No title, needs to be registered homemade which it will be after you get into it enough to bunk the DE. But it ain't a trailer for an SUV. If you were going to use an SUV; it'd need quite a lot of towing unless you went with an ultralight aluminum trailer, and even then, the boat will be driving you some. I hate trailering stuff bigger than me. It just never feels right. Eric's C21 has a light aluminum trailer iirc.

The DE25 could be made lighter by not making the long cabin version and not overbuilding the internals, but this is tricky for amateurs. It is a 2-3 year long project and you'll need a big enough garage for the top.

Anyhow, the C21 with a soft bimini over a windshield would be a pretty good boat that you could fish from well. The only downside would be making a spot for porta potty And a softtop would be tricky.

The DE series boats can even have a coffee pot inside, so the amenities are pretty nice if you want to make a coffee while underway to fish at 4:30am.

Our SUV is rated to a 5k towing capacity, so it's not super brawny like a Suburban, but because of our other boat and camper, we need at least 5k, so whatever vehicle we get in the future will be rated at 5k or above. The boat trailer we have now had to titled since it was over 3k, add in all the gear and crap and it's probably pushing closer to 3.5k. Our camper is around 3,300lbs. Both pull just fine and we have electric brakes. I know someone with the same SUV who pulls a 4k+ camper. Not saying it's smart, but they've done it. They also have the trailer sway bars and

The hull weight of the DE25 is 1750, make it 1,800, add on a 1000lb trailer, engine (I'd go with the same engine we have now, 115 Pro XS that weighs 336lbs), gear and fuel, it's probably getting close to 3.5k, unless I am underestimating something. I think if the weight is pushing closer to 4.5k, I might downsize to the DE23, as the hull alone shaves off 250lbs, and less fuel.

All of that aside, really the longest haul trip would be from Milwaukee area to Sturgeon Bay, to fish and boat in door county. That distance could be cut in roughly half if I launched in Green Bay and took the lake up to Sturgeon Bay. Lake Winnebago is under an hour, and access to multiple spots on Lake Michigan is within spitting distance. In truth...if I had enough time and patience, all of the above locations are all accessible if I had a slip in a marina on Lake Michigan, I'd just have to take it through the locks on the Fox River to get from LM to Lake Winnebago, but it would be do able. But doing some math, that trip would take at least 8 hours at WOT, something that might be fun to do on a long weekend, but not "oh, let's take the boat to Winnebago today" kind of trip.

I'd really like a medium distance exploration kind of boat, the more that time passes, I'm getting an itch to get out on the water and really explore. I want to take it out on Lake Michigan, I want to cross Lake Michigan, I want to boat around Door County, there's so much I want to get out and see on the water. I need a boat that is not going to shy away from the rough stuff, but still retains the ability to get up and go.

Sorry the rambling reply, I figure it's better to get it out and let you guys help me decide

With the high bow of the C21, couldn't a small cuddy cabin be built to give enough headroom to sit on a head in the deepest part of the bow and enough space to lay down then? See a few pictures of the C21 being built and men standing in the bow with the side just below their shoulders. Could have a hatch that is removable to have room to stepdown, turn and pop a swat.

For what you want to do it sounds like the DE-25 is the best fit. Having a full cabin will make your boating much nicer and your family happier also. For towing the boat you would be much better off finding an old used truck that is only used as a tow rig rather than compromising your boat needs. While a boat "can" be built to the book weight it almost never happens. We all seem to add a little here and there and it all adds up. But that is part of building it the way you want it, doing all those little things.

Fuzz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:31 pm For what you want to do it sounds like the DE-25 is the best fit. Having a full cabin will make your boating much nicer and your family happier also. For towing the boat you would be much better off finding an old used truck that is only used as a tow rig rather than compromising your boat needs. While a boat "can" be built to the book weight it almost never happens. We all seem to add a little here and there and it all adds up. But that is part of building it the way you want it, doing all those little things.

Completely glossed over that idea, but that is a very good idea, that way I can truly build the boat I want. I would definitely want to add the second fuel tank to bring her up to 84 gallons and mount a 9.9 kicker off the stern.

Rambling is fine, but de25 is a lot of boat for an suv. Boats all gain weight. Anchor, water, clothes, food, beer, all adds fast ...

fallguy1000 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:30 pm Rambling is fine, but de25 is a lot of boat for an suv. Boats all gain weight. Anchor, water, clothes, food, beer, all adds fast ...

You second the idea of buying a used truck or larger SUV (Suburban) to haul it?

I calculated the weight of the boat and it is a lot (see below math, I'm figuring around 4,500lbs, and while it's still technically under our 5k tow capacity, I would probably feel better pulling it with something more capable

Hull weight is 1750lbs, 84 gallons of fuel at 6lbs per gal is 504lbs, trailer est. 1000lbs, Merc 115 pro xs is 359lbs, Merc 9.9hp pro kicker is 108lbs, extra gear (stuff you mentioned) say 750lbs, total is 4471lbs.

So, while I could pull it with my current SUV, I would want more breathing room.

I noticed in the notes that the transom would accept a Kicker, and that is definitely something I would want to add. For trolling and for extra security on longer trips, although I would have to split the fuel sources. I was thinking running the main engine from both tanks with a valve to switch from one tank to the other, but then the kicker only running on the other tank. I would most likely fill each tank at separate gas stations and have a water remover on each, to minimize the possibility of a fuel related failure when I'm way out there on LM.

Do you guys think a 9.9 kicker would be enough? They have a 9.9, a 15 and a 25hp kickers available on Merc's website.

The 9.9 would be fine . Build the boat as designed , motor , tanks , ect , whatever is listed on the plans or needed for safety , then put the boat in the water . If it float,s above the water line then start loading it up with everything you think you want or need until it settles to it,s water line , save room for the wife , or not . When it hit's it,s water line then you will have to do some trading if you can't get everything you want or need on the boat . If it floats on it,s water line you should be close to designed weight , build it as designed and it will be close to designed weight .

I have posted measured weights for the DE25 in my journal thread. I tow it with a Ridgeline rated at 5000. I stick to 65 or less on flat highways, but it's about as much as a fwd based transmission can handle.

The DE is not a "big" 25' boat, remember we are talking 115 or 140hp. For small lake use, my limitation for skiing and such is the visibility from the pilothouse. It loads on and off the trailer easy with forward bunks.

I also have a 16' pontoon that is just fast enough to ski, so I would normally choose that for small rivers or lakes

Matt Gent wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:03 pm I have posted measured weights for the DE25 in my journal thread. I tow it with a Ridgeline rated at 5000. I stick to 65 or less on flat highways, but it's about as much as a fwd based transmission can handle.

The DE is not a "big" 25' boat, remember we are talking 115 or 140hp. For small lake use, my limitation for skiing and such is the visibility from the pilothouse. It loads on and off the trailer easy with forward bunks.

I also have a 16' pontoon that is just fast enough to ski, so I would normally choose that for small rivers or lakes

I have been reading through your Ownership log and picked up a few good points, one, when building, or having it built, I will have to put in drain holes between the stringers so that all of the underdeck will drain back to the bilge and be pumped out by the bilge pump.

Did you ever get around to mounting a kicker yet? What hp?

I was thinking last night about A/C, did you get around to adding it, or would fans be good enough?

Some other things I was half dreaming about, adding a heater and fans (Wisconsin here, with a cabin, I could boat until the lakes ice over to be honest) and it can get to 90-100+ here in summer, I would want fans or opening windows on the cabin and pilothouse.

I know you have the cockpit model, and I am looking at the cabin, but do you think it would be possible to add a removable bunk "filler" section? I was thinking a plank made out of plywood supported by 2x6's (or similar) to act as a filler between the bunks, that way the wife and I could sleep together, instead of separately? Roll some eggshell mattress over it and presto, maybe around a queen size bed size bunk?

I would also add a solar panel on top of the cabin, to keep the batteries charged on longer trips.

I've never slept on a boat, but what anchor system do you employ? I saw that you are using the Mantus off the bow (IIRC), the plow as a secondary and a drift sock to reduce the sway. Would I be paranoid to sleep on the boat with two anchors out (one off the bow and stern) with a drift sock? I can't imagine waking up to find I've drifted 20 miles from where I started, and in some cases, drifting would mean I'm laid up on shore or on the rocks.

I'm not experienced like Matt, but offer a few thoughts.

A piano hinge and a wider benchtop could get you close to queen. You flop the top plywood over at nite and place two standing boards or three under it, probably i to dados. Then it flops back and hides away under cushions. The back and bottom cushion are the mattress. Too hard for me, I would buy a soft top and roll it over the two; think 1.5" of soft foam stowed under the sofa.

My windows are from Bomon. Side windows have vents and front window can open. My cabin gets super warm facing the sun. I bought usb powered fans.

AC for boats is super impractical underway.

Anchor alarms are used. This is simply a gps alarm that sounds off and wakes you if the boat moves 50 feet.

solar and outboard charging both support batteries

One of my outboard Victron Orion chargers is not working..not sure why, need to check it..

I was raised with old school outboards that left me drifting way too many times. I always have a kicker on any outboard boat, even with the new 4-strokes, old habits die hard. My 22 foot SeaSport weighs around 6,000# when we leave the dock. A 9.9 high thrust kicker will push it about 5 knots, that is hull speed. A 8 hp high thrust will do the same thing.

Yes I made a kicker bracket and bought a 6hp. I think I posted results here. Carry it under v-berth. Haven’t used it in anger yet, just a test ride.

Yes a filler piece works great for the bed. If I haven’t posted pics I can take some. Mine is a piece of coosa with glass, scrap from other projects. The bed is nearly king size in total, king fitted sheet wraps all the cushions. Plenty of room for recreation, just watch your head.

I’ve slept many nights, Mantus works great. Older plow did drag once, near disaster. I use anchor alarm but neglected to set it that night.

No progress on AC, I may get one of those hatch scoops. We have a mr heater buddy but haven’t needed it.