Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

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TomW1
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by TomW1 »

That tells you how long I have been around here. Sorry Jeff. :D

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Vundu »

Just a short update on the Nidaplast sole experiment, and thanks for the advice in this thread so far. A side note, I have no access to 1708 fibreglass here, and at this stage of the build have only 600 and 400gsm biaxial and 400gsm twill.

I received my 25mm Nidaplast and cut a strip 700mm x 100mm. Weight 135grams.

I wet out the scrim, and added 2 layers 400gsm biaxial on one side, and 1 layer biaxial + 1 layer twill weave on the the other. I covered both sides with peel ply and a make shift breather cloth ( a soil erosion geo membrane that is a fraction of the price). Placed in a vacuum at 5inHg for 6 hours. I had no problem wetting out the small piece of Nidaplast, and no epoxy seeped into the honeycomb.

The end product after trimming was 698mm x 98mm. Weight 348.5 grams (5.1kg/m2 approximately).

There was no visual difference between the side that was Biax only and the Biax / twill side. On both sides the honeycomb was visible although it did not appear to print through the pattern of the honeycomb. At a span of 400mm and a standing weight of 98kg on a section 98mm wide, there was less than 1cm deflection.

I also did a basic impact assessment with a hammer drop compared to 9mm marine ply (7.06kg/m2) the ply showed 'C' shaped dents, and the Nidaplast did not.

Going forward will try placing 3 x 400gsm biaxial under the sole and 1 x 400gsm above to see if this reduces deflection. Weight saving of the Nidaplast vs the ply is significant. Especially as I will add 1 layer 400gsm on top of the ply for wear, taking the weight of ply/ glass to approximately 8kg/m2.

Any ideas and thoughts welcome..... as well as maths corrections!

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Fuzz »

That sounds to me like it will work just fine for decks if you keep support span to 24 inch or less.If you want larger spans you might go one more layer of glass on the bottom side. That was not a lot of flex with that much weight on it.

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by fallguy1000 »

The idea of 1200gsm on the bottom and 400 on top is probably not ideal.

The 400 on top is a bit easy to wear through, so I'd probably go 800/800. If you turn the laminate 45 degrees; you will gain a lot of strength. The basic idea is to run the tows directly across the spans, so the tows across the spans are as short as possible and laying glass in multiple directions adds a lot of strength.
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Vundu »

Thanks guys. I will make sure I rotate the Biax so that get tows aligned as advised. I did not do this on the sample. I retested the sample for flex again today, and it has stiffened significantly. I will be going 800gsm top and bottom.

Thanks again!

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by pee wee »

800 g/sm equals about 23.6 ounces per yard, according to a conversion site I used. If one of us in the U.S. wanted to apply this information to our build, are you saying that we'd want to apply two layers of 12 oz. biax to bottom and top to equal what Vundu is doing? The glass would need to be oriented so strands run 90 degrees to centerline, not at 45 degrees?

One of the suggestions to reduce weight on the FS19 was to use foam for the sole, I wonder how much of a saving this would actually accomplish.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but it sounds like Vundu has it figured out and I'd like for all to understand the plan.
Hank

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by fallguy1000 »

pee wee wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:49 am 800 g/sm equals about 23.6 ounces per yard, according to a conversion site I used. If one of us in the U.S. wanted to apply this information to our build, are you saying that we'd want to apply two layers of 12 oz. biax to bottom and top to equal what Vundu is doing? The glass would need to be oriented so strands run 90 degrees to centerline, not at 45 degrees?

One of the suggestions to reduce weight on the FS19 was to use foam for the sole, I wonder how much of a saving this would actually accomplish.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but it sounds like Vundu has it figured out and I'd like for all to understand the plan.
Yes.

And your observation about weight loss is astute, Hank. The problem for foam or nida is hand lamination and stiffness both.

A single layer of say 400gsm is not going to make a honeycomb core very stiff. And nida core's or any pp core, for that matter, with a veil is resin thirsty in the veil layer. I've tested it and used about a quart of resin for 32 sqft, so about 1/2-1 ounce for wetout of the veil. If you don't work super fast or pour onto the honeycomb; it'll run into the combs. I think I did one panel with like 18 ounces. The actual fabric on nida is only 45 gsm or 1 ounce fabric, but if anyone can wetout a sheet of nida with 3 ounces of resin; they are a better laminator than me!

If we could add vacuum; then 1600gsm is reduces to about 800-1000, and even more for the thirsty veil.

I have done the numbers. The best benefit is a never rot layup.
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by Vundu »

Hi Peewee and Fallguy.

I am using Nidaplast 8. The honeycomb is sealed with a membraine, so there is no chance of loosing epoxy / resin into the honeycomb. I have double checked my weights and allowing for a minor variation in surface area (a few mm) I calculate that the total amount of epoxy used with the 4 layers of 400gsm biaxial is less that 1:1 including soaking the nidaplast on both sides.

To reiterate my basic findings so you can check my calculations (my maths is NOT good):
Nidaplast 98mm x 698mm (after final trimming)
weight of Nidaplast used: 135 grams
400gsm biaxial x 3 layers
400gsm twill x 1 layer.
final weight of product trimmed: 348.5 grams.

I made a mistake by flex testing the sample after 24 hours. I should have waited longer as 24 hours is the advised demold time, and not maximum strength (The suppliers data sheet shows all tests at 14 days). After 4 days, deflection was 13mm over a span of 600mm with a weight of 98kg placed centrally on an area of 100mm x 100mm. I would think that after bending the sample too soon I did reduce the strength significantly, so the 4 day test is basically flawed.


I got the following from the Nidaplast website:
The Nidaplast 8 product has the "Certificate of Naval Approval" issued by DNV. Germanischer Lloyd certificate.
The polyester nonwoven on nidaplast 8 offers an ideal surface for impregnation with thermosetting resins (polyester, epoxy, etc.).
The thermo-welding of this nonwoven on the honeycomb structure ensures it a perfect grip.
Finally, the plastic film placed under the nonwoven makes the cells airtight and limits the consumption of resin.

The polypropylene honeycomb structure composed of 95% vacuum uses little material while ensuring high mechanical properties.

The honeycomb is made of polypropylene, a durable and 100% recyclable material. Manufactured on our industrial site in France.

Large panel dimensions: 2500 x 1220 mm
Different thicknesses: from 5 to 100 mm
Cell size: 8 mm
Indicative surface mass for a 20 mm panel: 1.5 kg / m2

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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by fallguy1000 »

Oh, that is good. When I bought plascore for my build, I was not smart enough to buy it with the film layer. The comb is super thirsty; it literally sucks twice each side and figuratively four times!

0.0684 sqm was the piece

So 4 layers is 0.2736 sqm x 400g/sqm = 109.4464 g

348.5g less nida of 135 is 213.5g

Resin was 213.5g-109.4463g or 104.05

The veil layer is 45 gsm and should be wetted first for best bonding.

45 g/sqm x 0.0684 is 3g

Resin in veil layer is 6g for both sides.

Resin in glass is 98.05g

98.05g/109.44g is about 90% resin/glass which is exceptional if you had full wetout.

Make sure to wetout the veil. This is best achieved by wetting the entire surface and then laying the glass versus wetting the glass and moving it, etc.
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Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Post by fallguy1000 »

Now, to compare to 1/2" plywood...

0.0684 sqm was the piece

348.5g weight

Final product is 348.5g/0.0684sqm or 5100gsm

1/2" plywood, let's use 12mm okume and 42 pounds for 4x8

Jeff and Reid- people are always looking online for panel weights, your store should tag the weights and should list them in the description-u will sell more plywood this way, despite freight

42 pounds is 19.05kg
32sqft is 2.97sqm
Ply is 6414 gsm before any sheathing if you add a single wear layer of 400gsm and use 100% resin for wood precoating, that is 800gsm or 7214gsm...most guys would seal the bottom maybe two times or about 100gsm more to 7314

So Nida is lighter, won't rot. As for the stiffness; gonna be very close as laid up.

If my numbers are wrong; I did this on little sleep and no coffee. Dan
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