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Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:35 am
by Vundu
I am building a TX18+10% (in all dimensions). I have access to Nidaplast 8, 25mm thickness and would like to use it for the front deck and sole. I have attached the TDS.

It comes with a scrim and no glass fibre skins. I would very much appreciate a laminating schedule in order to use it for the sole and decks of my project, if it is appropriate.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:55 am
by fallguy1000
It is going to depend, as all things in boats.

Depends on

1. The maximum and typical spans; like between stringers.

2. The stiffness expected. This, unfortunately is something that is not well documented and subject to a lot of personal preference. Fuzz may have some experience. I have used plascore for sole with 17" spans and I glassed each side with 850 gram triax. Honestly, I cannot remember if I doubled the side in tension, so I don't want to say whether I like it. It is really great what I have. My build records are not what I wish they were. I have pitched a lot and saved some and what I have is all a stack of disorganized papers.

3. I believe a good starting point for you is 2 layers of 12 oz biax each side, or 1708 on the bottom and 1208 on top for somethin stiff, but lighter.

4. Anything less than 24 oz (net) on the bottom will require testing. So, you would maybe build the casting deck and then use it to determine the sole, etc..

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:08 pm
by Fuzz
I would say Dan has it about right. I laid up some 25mm core with two layers of 1708 each side. This was good for 30 inch spans. But this was deck for a working fish boat so you do not need to go that heavy. If you keep the unsupported span to 24 inch or less what Dan purposed should be good. Remember the glass in tension is doing the most work so if you are not sure go a little heavy on the bottom. You can always add more to the top once it is down but you will not have that option for the bottom.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:31 am
by bklake
Nidaplast makes pre laminated panels. They use a layer of 1708 on both sides. That is a clue as to what you may need. These panels are flat, stiff, and probably don't flex much.

I made a top for my golf cart using honeycomb from another manufacturer. One layer of 12oz biax on each side. It is stiff enough and strong enough for it's intended use. I couldn't resist the urge to block it up and walk on it. Probably 30" between the blocks. It held my weight just fine but flexed and bent more than I would like to see if used for a sole. I do have an arch molded in and some stringers front to back for mounting hold downs.

One issue I ran into was spreading the resin. It pushed into the cells and tended to make the fiberglass go dry. Also, the air in the cells expanded and raised a few bubbles in the laminate. That was because I glassed it on a day when the weather changed drastically. The change in barometric pressure was big. Nidaplast says they have an airtight layer between the scrim and core. That should prevent both of these issues. If I use the same core again, I think Carbon Core?, I will spread a neat coat on the scrim, let it gel, then glass.

17oz on the bottom and 12oz on the top may be a good option. Not so sure the mat in 1708 is needed.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:23 pm
by Fuzz
bklake, how thick was the core you were using? With honeycomb I have found thicker makes things much stiffer for not much increase in weight or cost. If I am using epoxy I will not use 1708 or even 1208 if I can help it. For the work boat decks poly was used, thus the 1708.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:37 pm
by fallguy1000
There is a trick to prewetting any plastic honeycomb core with a veil.

Speed.

If you go slow, the resins drip through the thin veil and are wasted

If you do not wet the veil; it is not a good bond. I have bond tested it a few ways.

The wetout rate is high. Roughly 3/4 to one ounce mixed resin per square foot. Use a 1/4"x9" or 6" wide paint roller and fly. Do not pour much directly on one area or the stuff will just run down. The best way is to use a roller pan and apply it like a neat coat which is 2 oz a square yard versus what I found to be around 24 ounces if I wetted it from the pan for a 4x8 panel. Fly over the surface until you see the honeycomb well. Then apply a wetted piece of glass. I did not wetout on the veil for same reasons...only onto a tube and then back to the core..

They make vacuum-able panels; that would probably reduce the thirst of the stuff...

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:41 am
by Vundu
Thanks very much for the replies. I really appreciate the time you guys have taken to share your advise. I will post the distance between stringers this week.

I only have access to 400g/m2 Biaxial (approx 12oz/yard2) and 400 and 200g/m2 woven and am using epoxy.

I have been exploring a little with vacuum bagging and have made a table large enough to bag full sheets of the Nidaplast, do you have any advise on how much vacuum to pull?

I would pre-wet and laminate the nidaplast then use the vacuum to try and ensure a good bond. I did not think of the possible issues of the air trapped in the honeycombs expanding while under vacuum.

Thanks again.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:05 pm
by fallguy1000
Well, using vac on honeycomb; you don't want to compress the stuff into the combs; so keep the vac below 10 psi.

I don't wish to toot my own horn, but I have used 400g biax extensively and it is my overall favorite glass.

But.

The idea of using it here under vac or over honeycomb sucks. The reason is the stuff is so damn snaky. Combine that with biax which is hard to wet down through and you will have trouble.

The best way to laminate honeycomb is to move wetted glass to it after it is prewet. And the best glass to move wetted is one that won't deform much. Moving 400 or 600g db suks bad. You want something that won't deform. For sole or decks, I would stick with 1208 or 1708.

If you have no other option; you could try this...

Lay out the 400g with length trace marks every 18" on both the nida and the 400g; so you can see them unrolling.

Wetout the nida at 1/2-1 ounce like I said..

Wetout only the bottom side of the 400g on plastic and try to roll it onto a tube and then roll it off wetside down. If half is dry it might not get so snaky and distort on you.

Or, wet down through all the way on top of the nida which really sucks I've found and uses too much resin.

Either way, I'd experiment. You may also have edge problems as the vac will crush the edges and a lot of bridging is likely. You can placehold with timber pieces or actually laminate in a higher density core that won't crush. And you could get fancy and make the edge support a 45 degree angle to stop bridging.

Me. I'd skip the vac. But if part is a casting deck; I'd do all the inserts for locker or the edges ahead of time. It is really not easy to decore plastic honeycomb cores. It is typically a delam event.

If any of this confuses you; let me know.

I have NOT bagged honeycomb cores; my table is too small AND plascorp makes a vac bag core, I did not buy it; not sure the difference, but I'm guessing air won't cross it.

Whatever you do; don't try to vac both sides; the bottom will get drysucked.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:18 pm
by Fuzz
I recently laid up one side of four 25mm panels. I put down a thin layer of resin and let it kick. While it was still green I laid two layers of 1708 over it. It came out good with no pinholes or bubbles. It will go down over crowned deck beams. With the glass only on the bottom side it will bend enough to take the crown no problem.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:06 am
by bklake
Fuzz wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:23 pm bklake, how thick was the core you were using? With honeycomb I have found thicker makes things much stiffer for not much increase in weight or cost. If I am using epoxy I will not use 1708 or even 1208 if I can help it. For the work boat decks poly was used, thus the 1708.
3/4" or 20mm. I don't remember if it was inch or metric.

The whole golf cart top project was for exploring products and processes. I sort of concluded that honeycomb is a very specialized product that is better with specialized processes vs. laminate it like it is plywood. It is spectacular if you have the right equipment. It in no better than, maybe worse than, other core materials if you don't have the right stuff to work with it.

It is a good thing to be able to work with a material that may not be the best for a task but available vs. material that just isn't available to you. I'm sure that I can get better at using honeycomb. I still have 1/4th of the sheet left and some ideas for a use.

If you have never used a product before, start in places where it doesn't matter and mistakes are cheap and easy to fix. Do not cut out and try to laminate an entire sole as your first use. Build a cooler or seat top as a first go with the stuff.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:02 pm
by fallguy1000
Fuzz wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:18 pm I recently laid up one side of four 25mm panels. I put down a thin layer of resin and let it kick. While it was still green I laid two layers of 1708 over it. It came out good with no pinholes or bubbles. It will go down over crowned deck beams. With the glass only on the bottom side it will bend enough to take the crown no problem.
Did you wetout the 1708 on top of the hotcoat or on a table?

If you let the stuff kick; maybe that'll keep the honeycombs from drinkin resin?

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:58 pm
by Fuzz
I put down a thin coat, just enough to seal it, and let it fully kick. After that I laid both layers of 1708 at one time.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:10 pm
by fallguy1000
Fuzz wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:58 pm I put down a thin coat, just enough to seal it, and let it fully kick. After that I laid both layers of 1708 at one time.
Pretty smart...I was ultra nervous about resin dripping down so I did a lot of wetting on the table and moved the stuff which sux.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:05 am
by Vundu
Hi, apologies for the quiet week, and thanks for all the advice!! Work seems to be getting in the way of important things (like boat building) ;)

From the plans my largest open span is 40 x 30 inches. I can run a support mid way, reducing the span to 20x30 inches, or 40x15 inches.

As I would like to maximise weight reduction with strength, what would be the best way to go in terms of laminating schedule, and would it be worth reducing the open spans with a foam encased beam? Also, would creating a crown on the deck of approximately 25mm (1 inch) over a total width of 2.4m (8 feet) before lamination add any strength to the sole?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:11 am
by fallguy1000
Crown is only needed on Category A boats or any boat that will get repeatedly awash. It won't offer much.

I made i beams from laminated core. You rip them out of any core scraps or make them from core offcuts. About 1-2" for the vertical section and about 4x the core thickness for the flat sections or for 12mm core say 2". Mine may be 1.5" for all pieces. This depends on the amount of room available if above a fuel tank, etc.

The I sections get a thickened resin fillet and a piece of 1708 tape on the vertical section. These cut your spans in half. 20" max is what you want. I think they are good for about 30" of support from my testing which was me standing on the middle of them, so a 30" i beam cuts your 40" section in half to 20". You do need an absolute stop or cleat under them and I tabbed mine in woth a small 1708 tape so they won't ever break away.

Make a test panel with 1708 each side or 1208 on the top for a lighter option that will still be waterproof and wear well.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:29 pm
by Fuzz
If you are using epoxy I would use straight biax and skip the mat. Biggest reason is it wets out so much easier.
For a cabin sole flat is probably the best way to go. For deck I like some crown in it. No matter what there always seem to be tiny low spots that hold dirt/crap when scrubbing the deck. With a little crown the deck drains and cleans up much easier.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:58 pm
by fallguy1000
I'm not anxious to argue with Fuzz, but laminate stiffness drives thickness and I am nervous 17 oz biax could develop a leak or two, so I'm sticking with 1708 for my advice on the bottom and same on top or 24 oz of glass min, however you get there, not wovens.

Certainly worth a try to use 1700 and see what y think,

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:10 pm
by Fuzz
No argument with you Dan. I am still not sure what resin is being used for this. I hate trying to wet out 1708 with epoxy. I have laid many rolls of the stuff with poly and it works well with poly. I agree around 25 oz will make a good laminate. If using epoxy the best IMO would be two layers of 12 oz biax. That would let all seams to be offset. Problem with using 12 oz biax is the cost. 1708 and 12 oz biax cost about the same so it doubles your glass cost. The builder has to weigh the cost/benefit to them.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:46 pm
by TomW1
I just saw this and did a little research. You can buy finished 1/2" Nidaplast panels from the store with 18oz biax and 10oz strand on each side. 1708 would be very similar, talk to Joel to see if you could substitute or substitute a thicker Nidaplast.

Tom

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:09 am
by fallguy1000
TomW1 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:46 pm I just saw this and did a little research. You can buy finished 1/2" Nidaplast panels from the store with 18oz biax and 10oz strand on each side. 1708 would be very similar, talk to Joel to see if you could substitute or substitute a thicker Nidaplast.

Tom
Joel hasn't been here for ?7 years.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:12 pm
by TomW1
That tells you how long I have been around here. Sorry Jeff. :D

Tom

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:54 am
by Vundu
Just a short update on the Nidaplast sole experiment, and thanks for the advice in this thread so far. A side note, I have no access to 1708 fibreglass here, and at this stage of the build have only 600 and 400gsm biaxial and 400gsm twill.

I received my 25mm Nidaplast and cut a strip 700mm x 100mm. Weight 135grams.

I wet out the scrim, and added 2 layers 400gsm biaxial on one side, and 1 layer biaxial + 1 layer twill weave on the the other. I covered both sides with peel ply and a make shift breather cloth ( a soil erosion geo membrane that is a fraction of the price). Placed in a vacuum at 5inHg for 6 hours. I had no problem wetting out the small piece of Nidaplast, and no epoxy seeped into the honeycomb.

The end product after trimming was 698mm x 98mm. Weight 348.5 grams (5.1kg/m2 approximately).

There was no visual difference between the side that was Biax only and the Biax / twill side. On both sides the honeycomb was visible although it did not appear to print through the pattern of the honeycomb. At a span of 400mm and a standing weight of 98kg on a section 98mm wide, there was less than 1cm deflection.

I also did a basic impact assessment with a hammer drop compared to 9mm marine ply (7.06kg/m2) the ply showed 'C' shaped dents, and the Nidaplast did not.

Going forward will try placing 3 x 400gsm biaxial under the sole and 1 x 400gsm above to see if this reduces deflection. Weight saving of the Nidaplast vs the ply is significant. Especially as I will add 1 layer 400gsm on top of the ply for wear, taking the weight of ply/ glass to approximately 8kg/m2.

Any ideas and thoughts welcome..... as well as maths corrections!

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:54 pm
by Fuzz
That sounds to me like it will work just fine for decks if you keep support span to 24 inch or less.If you want larger spans you might go one more layer of glass on the bottom side. That was not a lot of flex with that much weight on it.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:17 am
by fallguy1000
The idea of 1200gsm on the bottom and 400 on top is probably not ideal.

The 400 on top is a bit easy to wear through, so I'd probably go 800/800. If you turn the laminate 45 degrees; you will gain a lot of strength. The basic idea is to run the tows directly across the spans, so the tows across the spans are as short as possible and laying glass in multiple directions adds a lot of strength.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:20 pm
by Vundu
Thanks guys. I will make sure I rotate the Biax so that get tows aligned as advised. I did not do this on the sample. I retested the sample for flex again today, and it has stiffened significantly. I will be going 800gsm top and bottom.

Thanks again!

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:49 am
by pee wee
800 g/sm equals about 23.6 ounces per yard, according to a conversion site I used. If one of us in the U.S. wanted to apply this information to our build, are you saying that we'd want to apply two layers of 12 oz. biax to bottom and top to equal what Vundu is doing? The glass would need to be oriented so strands run 90 degrees to centerline, not at 45 degrees?

One of the suggestions to reduce weight on the FS19 was to use foam for the sole, I wonder how much of a saving this would actually accomplish.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but it sounds like Vundu has it figured out and I'd like for all to understand the plan.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:30 am
by fallguy1000
pee wee wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:49 am 800 g/sm equals about 23.6 ounces per yard, according to a conversion site I used. If one of us in the U.S. wanted to apply this information to our build, are you saying that we'd want to apply two layers of 12 oz. biax to bottom and top to equal what Vundu is doing? The glass would need to be oriented so strands run 90 degrees to centerline, not at 45 degrees?

One of the suggestions to reduce weight on the FS19 was to use foam for the sole, I wonder how much of a saving this would actually accomplish.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but it sounds like Vundu has it figured out and I'd like for all to understand the plan.
Yes.

And your observation about weight loss is astute, Hank. The problem for foam or nida is hand lamination and stiffness both.

A single layer of say 400gsm is not going to make a honeycomb core very stiff. And nida core's or any pp core, for that matter, with a veil is resin thirsty in the veil layer. I've tested it and used about a quart of resin for 32 sqft, so about 1/2-1 ounce for wetout of the veil. If you don't work super fast or pour onto the honeycomb; it'll run into the combs. I think I did one panel with like 18 ounces. The actual fabric on nida is only 45 gsm or 1 ounce fabric, but if anyone can wetout a sheet of nida with 3 ounces of resin; they are a better laminator than me!

If we could add vacuum; then 1600gsm is reduces to about 800-1000, and even more for the thirsty veil.

I have done the numbers. The best benefit is a never rot layup.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:24 am
by Vundu
Hi Peewee and Fallguy.

I am using Nidaplast 8. The honeycomb is sealed with a membraine, so there is no chance of loosing epoxy / resin into the honeycomb. I have double checked my weights and allowing for a minor variation in surface area (a few mm) I calculate that the total amount of epoxy used with the 4 layers of 400gsm biaxial is less that 1:1 including soaking the nidaplast on both sides.

To reiterate my basic findings so you can check my calculations (my maths is NOT good):
Nidaplast 98mm x 698mm (after final trimming)
weight of Nidaplast used: 135 grams
400gsm biaxial x 3 layers
400gsm twill x 1 layer.
final weight of product trimmed: 348.5 grams.

I made a mistake by flex testing the sample after 24 hours. I should have waited longer as 24 hours is the advised demold time, and not maximum strength (The suppliers data sheet shows all tests at 14 days). After 4 days, deflection was 13mm over a span of 600mm with a weight of 98kg placed centrally on an area of 100mm x 100mm. I would think that after bending the sample too soon I did reduce the strength significantly, so the 4 day test is basically flawed.


I got the following from the Nidaplast website:
The Nidaplast 8 product has the "Certificate of Naval Approval" issued by DNV. Germanischer Lloyd certificate.
The polyester nonwoven on nidaplast 8 offers an ideal surface for impregnation with thermosetting resins (polyester, epoxy, etc.).
The thermo-welding of this nonwoven on the honeycomb structure ensures it a perfect grip.
Finally, the plastic film placed under the nonwoven makes the cells airtight and limits the consumption of resin.

The polypropylene honeycomb structure composed of 95% vacuum uses little material while ensuring high mechanical properties.

The honeycomb is made of polypropylene, a durable and 100% recyclable material. Manufactured on our industrial site in France.

Large panel dimensions: 2500 x 1220 mm
Different thicknesses: from 5 to 100 mm
Cell size: 8 mm
Indicative surface mass for a 20 mm panel: 1.5 kg / m2

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:05 am
by fallguy1000
Oh, that is good. When I bought plascore for my build, I was not smart enough to buy it with the film layer. The comb is super thirsty; it literally sucks twice each side and figuratively four times!

0.0684 sqm was the piece

So 4 layers is 0.2736 sqm x 400g/sqm = 109.4464 g

348.5g less nida of 135 is 213.5g

Resin was 213.5g-109.4463g or 104.05

The veil layer is 45 gsm and should be wetted first for best bonding.

45 g/sqm x 0.0684 is 3g

Resin in veil layer is 6g for both sides.

Resin in glass is 98.05g

98.05g/109.44g is about 90% resin/glass which is exceptional if you had full wetout.

Make sure to wetout the veil. This is best achieved by wetting the entire surface and then laying the glass versus wetting the glass and moving it, etc.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:24 am
by fallguy1000
Now, to compare to 1/2" plywood...

0.0684 sqm was the piece

348.5g weight

Final product is 348.5g/0.0684sqm or 5100gsm

1/2" plywood, let's use 12mm okume and 42 pounds for 4x8

Jeff and Reid- people are always looking online for panel weights, your store should tag the weights and should list them in the description-u will sell more plywood this way, despite freight

42 pounds is 19.05kg
32sqft is 2.97sqm
Ply is 6414 gsm before any sheathing if you add a single wear layer of 400gsm and use 100% resin for wood precoating, that is 800gsm or 7214gsm...most guys would seal the bottom maybe two times or about 100gsm more to 7314

So Nida is lighter, won't rot. As for the stiffness; gonna be very close as laid up.

If my numbers are wrong; I did this on little sleep and no coffee. Dan

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:00 am
by Vundu
Glad to see our sums are the same!

When I ordered the Nidaplast my supplier said to add about about 10% max to my epoxy needs for the scrim soak up. I did, and was left with alot of waste epoxy. I made sure the Nidaplast was dripping wet, added pre wet glass, then more epoxy, and finally rolled on peelply making sure it had total soak through. I am fairly confident that there were no starved areas, as the low uptake did worry me. I have to admit, I was expecting much more soak up based on other peoples experience.

I am exploring more and more with vacuum bagging and really enjoying it, especially when getting wet out glass to fit contours or curves. I am getting 1:1 glass epoxy ratios when working with corelite.

I am using Marine ply out of The far east, that is advertised as BS1088 standard. From weighing sheets it works out at 710kg/m3. So 9mm sheet being 6.39kg/m2 prior to glassing and sealing. It is extremely thirsty. I estimated my total savings in weight at approximately 40-50kg for the sole.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:49 am
by pee wee
Vundu wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:00 am I estimated my total savings in weight at approximately 40-50kg for the sole.
Thanks for sharing that. That is a significant weight savings, and a permanent one- I'd say it's well worth doing for a boat the size of yours. The boat will float a little higher, the motor will have to push less weight, etc., over the lifetime of the hull.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:57 pm
by fallguy1000
How are you getting 40-50kg savings?

If the nida is 2kg/sqm less and you have 10sqm, I get 20kg.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:55 am
by Vundu
A serious DUHHH moment. I used beam width from transom to bow! :-? :-? :-? that was my mistake, making a huge sole and worked on 800gsm glass + epoxy.
Rough estimate is actually about 14m2 including front deck, and 400gsm of glass and 400g+20% epoxy for hand layup and soaking the ply. So saving is 2.17kg/m2 excluding epoxy on underside of the sole, giving a corrected figure of about 30kg. My apologies if I got anyones heart racing.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:42 am
by fallguy1000
All good. I apologize for the nit in me calling you on the error.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:45 am
by bklake
Vundu wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:00 am Glad to see our sums are the same!

When I ordered the Nidaplast my supplier said to add about about 10% max to my epoxy needs for the scrim soak up. I did, and was left with alot of waste epoxy. I made sure the Nidaplast was dripping wet, added pre wet glass, then more epoxy, and finally rolled on peelply making sure it had total soak through. I am fairly confident that there were no starved areas, as the low uptake did worry me. I have to admit, I was expecting much more soak up based on other peoples experience.
It sounds like the barrier layer that Nidaplast uses actually reduces the amount of resin needed. The Carbon-Core I used did not have a barrier layer and it did soak up a lot of epoxy. I can see more than a few cells that have epoxy squeezed into them. Who knows what the thickness of the epoxy is on the back side of the scrim. The part is in use and I can't cut it up to see. The scrim layer on the Carbon-Core seemed about the thickness of very light weight fiberglass cloth, maybe 2oz surfboard cloth. It shouldn't need a lot of epoxy. New product=new procedures.

1. Nidaplast seems to be a better product for epoxy usage/ waste reduction.
2. I need to explore strand orientation more. I didn't get the stiffness I was expecting. The part is strong enough for what it needs to do but I was expecting more stiffness.

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:18 am
by Vundu
No worries Fallguy, the whole point for me being on the forum is to learn, I appreciate the fact you checked.

I agree, the Nidaplast does appear to be a great product and easy to use. I saw a video out of the UK by Easycomposites.co.uk (How to make a carbon rear wing) where they used Nomex Honeycomb onto carbon sheet, thickening the epoxy with fumed silica then applying at 500g/m2. It seems alot of extra weight!

I see online alot of people are using Nidaplast vertically as well, on bulkheads and stringers etc. My simple logic says thats not a good idea as the honeycomb is strongest when compressed vertically down the structure walls, not along the walls (if that makes sense). Any thoughts? If its good to use I might use it instead of the 9mm ply for the ribs?

Re: Nidaplast 8 laminating schedule for TX18+10% sole

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:28 am
by fallguy1000
Nida for a structural element needs to be carefully scheduled and more glass.