What's Specifically in the Design Package?

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mizzenman

What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by mizzenman »

I have a few questions mostly in regard to the GT27 and DE25 design package.
1) The study plans state "no lofting" and "all dimensions required" but given that lofting is "a drafting technique to generate curved lines" (wiki), I don't see how there's no lofting unless either 1) there's no curved lines or 2) the plans provide full scale templates. I don't believe either of those to be true. What I expect are scale drawings with (x,y) dimensions or a table of offsets that need to be measured out at full scale on plywood and 'connect the dots' (eg lofting) for cutting. Is my expectation correct?
2) The study plans state "drawings with all dimensions required to cut . . . all parts from flat plywood". I assume this means all 'structural' parts including cabin, BUT not plywood parts for non-structural built-in console, bunks, seats, cabinets, interior walls, etc. Am I correct to assume the builder is expected to template for non-structural plywood parts such as seats, cabinets, etc.?
3) Each package states "drawings showing assembly and parts numbers for small hardware". What does "small hardware" include? I would think "small hardware" is hinges, cleats, through hulls, blocks/pulleys, nav lights, bow roller, hand rails, door pulls, drain plug, interior lights and switches, hose clamps, fuel fill (if applicable), control cables, etc. Is this what is meant by the aforementioned statement?
4) Each study plan shows a drawing titled "Details". What does that include? For boats with a galley and head, does it show fresh, grey and black water plumbing, pumps, tanks, etc.? For remote steering and throttles, are the cable/hydraulic and helm parts specified in enough detail to buy? Are instruments parts detailed? Are Bilge pump part, installation location, through hull location, etc. detailed?
5) Does B221 small boat electrical, show adequate detail to purchase electrical components and meet ABYC for all electrical systems such as navigation lights, engine, interior lighting, etc?
6) Does the BOM include either a make and model or detailed specifications for all required equipment shown in the study plan beyond just structural parts (eg, head, hoses, clamps, pumps, helm, steering, throttle, battery, isolation switch, breakers, AC/DC panel, wiring, connectors, switches, etc.)?
Thanks!

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VT_Jeff
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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by VT_Jeff »

mizzenman wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:12 pm What I expect are scale drawings with (x,y) dimensions or a table of offsets
You get the former. If you got the latter, you would need to "Loft", at least in the sense that the designer, jaques mertens, uses the term. So it depends on what your definition of "is" is. :lol:

You're not nearly the first and certainly won't be the last to ask this question.
There are only two seasons in Vermont: boating season, and boat-building season.

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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by mizzenman »

Thanks VT_Jeff. You confirmed what I expected for the lofting situation.

Can you answer some of the questions mostly regarding interior outfitting with galley's and full heads? Do the plans limit the information to structural and operating requirements, or do they detail outfitting the 'living' space as well? For example, water tanks can be very heavy and have a significant impact on trim. Are tank size a locations detailed? Are plumbing runs detailed so holes can be cut in bulkheads before the bulkheads are installed? Are items like propane lockers, which require venting and remote valve operation, detailed in the plans?

Thanks

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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by VT_Jeff »

mizzenman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:07 pm Thanks VT_Jeff. You confirmed what I expected for the lofting situation.

Can you answer some of the questions mostly regarding interior outfitting with galley's and full heads?
I definitely can.......not. You need the other Jeff, Morrow. I suspect he'll chime in soon or else hit him at jeff@boatbuildercentral.com
There are only two seasons in Vermont: boating season, and boat-building season.

Completed Paul Butler 14' Clark Fork Drifter
Completed Jacques Mertens FS14LS + 10%, Build Thread
Started Iain Oughtred Tammie Norrie

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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by BarraMan »

Here’s a thought, “Buy the plans and most, if not all, of your questions will be answered”! :D
The cost of the plans is an almost negligible part of overall build costs on a big boat!

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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by mizzenman »

BarraMan, The only reason I can afford to build a boat is because I don't just throw down $200 to see what I may get from it. I don't see why the people trying to sell the plans can't answer what's on the plans!? A drawing title "Details" doesn't mean anything to me. Do they detail system installation and contain part info? For example, the GT27 has 2 sinks, a head, and a shower. Do the plans show plumping runs so holes can be cut in the frames before they are installed and covered up or is that left to the builder to figure out? Do the plans show the location, venting and remote valve requirements for a propane locker for the galley stove as required by ABYC?

The devil is in the details. I want to build an ABYC compliant boat, but an ABYC membership is way too expensive. Are these plans detailed enough to build to ABYC standards?

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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by joe2700 »

mizzenman wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:05 pm The devil is in the details. I want to build an ABYC compliant boat, but an ABYC membership is way too expensive. Are these plans detailed enough to build to ABYC standards?
I don't have the GT27 plans but for the DE25 and other plans I do have I would say the answer is no. There are part numbers and notes about many of the things you are asking about, but if you are expecting to build the boat 100% according to ABYC standards without any other resources, or want every thru bulkhead position to be called out exactly I think you will be disappointed. Not sure what options are out there with that level of detail for the home builder. Home builders usually want freedom to make the boat their own in my experience, you are looking for the level of detail a production run would need.

FYI you can find many of the ABYC specifications online pretty easily without a membership. I had not problem finding the regulations for gas and electric that I wanted to follow.

Buying a few plans from a few different places to study and learn from is not a waste even if you don't build them in my opinion.

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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by Evan_Gatehouse »

1) The study plans state "no lofting" and "all dimensions required" but given that lofting is "a drafting technique to generate curved lines" (wiki), I don't see how there's no lofting unless either 1) there's no curved lines or 2) the plans provide full scale templates. I don't believe either of those to be true. What I expect are scale drawings with (x,y) dimensions or a table of offsets that need to be measured out at full scale on plywood and 'connect the dots' (eg lofting) for cutting. Is my expectation correct?

Correct expectation. "Lofting" from traditional lines plans means drawing the lines plan full size and taking dimensions for frames or hull panels from this drawing. This is not required but it is how traditional boat construction was done. This is all done for you.

2) The study plans state "drawings with all dimensions required to cut . . . all parts from flat plywood". I assume this means all 'structural' parts including cabin, BUT not plywood parts for non-structural built-in console, bunks, seats, cabinets, interior walls, etc. Am I correct to assume the builder is expected to template for non-structural plywood parts such as seats, cabinets, etc.?

It varies from boat to boat but I'd say most things like bunks, seat, cabinets ARE dimensioned. However there can be some variation in how a hull shape is and you should template from the hull to make a proper fit. I template with short strips of cardboard or doorskin and a hot melt glue gun. The nice thing about stitch and glue boatbuilding is small gaps in panels are filled with epoxy putty and then taped in place. You are not building fine furniture with traditional woodworking tight joints.

3) Each package states "drawings showing assembly and parts numbers for small hardware". What does "small hardware" include? I would think "small hardware" is hinges, cleats, through hulls, blocks/pulleys, nav lights, bow roller, hand rails, door pulls, drain plug, interior lights and switches, hose clamps, fuel fill (if applicable), control cables, etc. Is this what is meant by the aforementioned statement?

Sort of and again, varies from plan package. But it won't be a shopping list for EVERY piece of hardware on the boat. It will say something like 6" deck cleat or red navigation sidelight in a generic sense. Because plans are sold all over the world you won't be usually getting brand names and part numbers. But if you pick up a marine hardware catalog or visit a big marine supplier like defender.com you'll see you have dozens of choices in each category, at multiple price points.

4) Each study plan shows a drawing titled "Details". What does that include? For boats with a galley and head, does it show fresh, grey and black water plumbing, pumps, tanks, etc.? For remote steering and throttles, are the cable/hydraulic and helm parts specified in enough detail to buy? Are instruments parts detailed? Are Bilge pump part, installation location, through hull location, etc. detailed?

I think you're expecting too much. You might get a plumbing diagram but it will be generic. You have to do a bit of homework. Instruments are very much the builders choice. A compass for some people, a full radar and chartplotter for others...No amateur boat plans will offer all these to locate these components.

5) Does B221 small boat electrical, show adequate detail to purchase electrical components and meet ABYC for all electrical systems such as navigation lights, engine, interior lighting, etc?
6) Does the BOM include either a make and model or detailed specifications for all required equipment shown in the study plan beyond just structural parts (eg, head, hoses, clamps, pumps, helm, steering, throttle, battery, isolation switch, breakers, AC/DC panel, wiring, connectors, switches, etc.)?

You'll get a generic wiring diagram. It is up to you to purchase the bits that connect it all because builders will want to do things differently. There is assistance in the plans and this forum but not handholding. It might be very intimidating but because building a larger boat like this takes years it gives you time to do a bit of research and answer a lot of these questions.

There are no ABYC police or government inspectors that will say you are not compliant. The closest you will find is many surveyors use ABYC as a standard to say "hey you should not put your propane tank in the cabin. It has to be in a separate locker that is vented above the waterline or outside on the deck."

You're probably a good candidate for a good book on boat systems; Nigel Calder's "Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" would be a great start. Some excerpts:
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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by TomW1 »

Jacques plans are designed to ABYC standards. Evan makes an excellent suggestion in buying Calder's book. You are nit picking about secondary systems while if not done right can cause problems are not part of the ABYC requirements. The porta-potty shown by Jacques is all that is required along with some sort of supply of water. Tom
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Re: What's Specifically in the Design Package?

Post by BarraMan »

BarraMan, The only reason I can afford to build a boat is because I don't just throw down $200 to see what I may get from it.
To get the detail you require, I suggest that you engage the services of a qualified naval architect! OK, so it will cost more than $200 but will still be a relatively small % of the overall cost of building and fitting out a complex 25-27 ft boat! :D

As the successful builder of a large (22') complex boat, I can tell you that I read lots and studied stuff for 3 yrs before commencing my build. :doh: I invested maybe $1,000 in books, another $2,000 in alternative plans, and I completed a Certificate in Naval Architecture through Lloyds Academy in London ($5,000). I also studied the Australian Boat Design Standards (ie equivalent to your ABYC standards) in detail.

I then invested about $150k and built a boat that has exceeded my every expectation! 8O

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