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Phantom 18 in Maine

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:03 pm
by sgorey
Well, I can't believe I've made it this far seeing that I went against the advice of many by not building a small boat before building a larger one. :)

I know I still have a very long way to go, but fiberglassing the outside of the hull was a bid deal for me.

I spent 6hrs taping the seams Friday night, 4hrs glassing one side and 3hrs glassing the other on Saturday.

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A little too much epoxy :oops:

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So far things that I've learned:

* allocate enough time to complete the task. I started glassing one side Saturday morning knowing that I wouldn't have too much time to finish. I ended up running out of time so I stopped applying epoxy to the fiberglass before it was completely covered. I then came back to a mess.

* mix conservative size batches. Saturday morning I went for a big finish and mixed too much and paid for it. The epoxy started to kick and I didn't realize the mistake I was making by applying it until it was too late. :(

:help: how do I fix it?
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* scale for mixing ratios. I bought one today because I am sick of pouring resin into one container, the hardener into another then both into a third container. I have the pumps but who wants to pump 18 times to get 6oz. Hopefully the scale will allow me to mix in one container.

* Be smart (if you can) about the products you buy. Even though I purchased the fiberglass kit from bateau, I didn' approximate the amount of each hardener I needed very well. I asked for 2 fast hardeners and 2 medium hardeners. My garage has been in the upper 40's to low 50's for the last week. I should have been using a mix of the two hardeners but instead I used only the fast. Now I am running low on the fast hardener and a long winter a head of me with mostly the medium hardener. I'll probably end up buying the 3 gallon kit along with more filler material. I'm going to need it to get a boat that looks half as good as the ones in the gallery.

* metric rules.

Thanks Jacques and the rest of you guys for supporting such a great web site.


Off to sanding....
Steve

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:52 am
by JimW
You have to cut out those areas where the glass didn't wet out. I have good luck using a sharp wood chisel to cut the glass right where the air pocket edge starts. After cutting out all the bad areas sand the edges so the new layer will lay flat and start again. I used 4 to 6 oz batches and had it set up so I could pour the batch out and squeegie it until it was gone then run over and pump 4 resin, pump 2 hardener, stir for 60 seconds and pour the next batch. But you are right you have to have a good amount of time to do a large hull surface. If I could ever trust a helper to count pumps it would be nice to "order" another batch as I squeegie the last of a batch. Do not let emotions change your plan, like frustration driving you to mix a big batch. You know what to do, do not talk yourself into shortcuts. This is where trouble starts. Just keep plugging with the proven techniques you do very well. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. Chin up, we all learned these same lessons. Mine was with chine and transom joint lamination bubbles.

The medium hardener is good for fillets even when it's cold out, because of the thickness and mass of the curing fillet, the heat builds up faster. You will be able to use much of that medium hardener on interior corners. Even the tape lamination can be medium if you work wet on wet over "hot curing" fillets.

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:15 am
by tech_support
Do not use a scale if your ratio is given in volume!!!!! Its not the same.

A 2:1 in volume is not the same in weight.

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:50 am
by fishingdan
sgorey,

Don't worry about not having fast hardener for working in the cold. I worked through most of last winter with medium hardener. There will be some weeks when it will take 4 or 5 days for the epoxy to fully cure, but you can work around that with planning if desired. In my case, it didn't matter since I only worked on my boat a couple of times per week. The important thing is to keep the epoxy at or near normal room temps.

As Jim stated, the mistakes you have made have been made by all builders.

good luck,
Dan

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:37 am
by sgorey
JimW wrote:You have to cut out those areas where the glass didn't wet out.
I was afraid of that. But better now than after it has been faired and painted.
JimW wrote:... Mine was with chine and transom joint lamination bubbles.
So all lamination bubbles need to be repaired???

A couple of the images show white spots on the chine and bow. How to repair?
1) chisel out and patch with glass and epoxy or
2) drill hole and fill with epoxy

Thanks for your responses.

Steve

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:20 pm
by JimW
sgorey wrote: So all lamination bubbles need to be repaired???

A couple of the images show white spots on the chine and bow. How to repair?
1) chisel out and patch with glass and epoxy or
2) drill hole and fill with epoxy

Thanks for your responses.

Steve
Any that have any size to them need fixing. A taped seam with bubbl;es underneath is only as strong as the wood alone and the thin layer of glass alone. Either can be borken pretty easily. Two times easily is still in the "Easily" order of magnatude. Bonded well to form a two skin matrix the strength skyrockets. Air bubbles over more than about 10% of an area really weaken that area.

Filling with resin is good if possible. I gouged out the glass, added thickened epoxy putty and glass taped over the top. Hang in there.

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:42 pm
by sgorey
JimW wrote:...Hang in there.
Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I used a block plane to scrape off what I could, then used a disk sander and got the rest. It was definitely needed. Once the top layer of epoxy was scraped off, I saw all of the "dry" fiberglass.

Steve

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:07 pm
by jasonmcintosh
Jim's giving good advise. Mistakes like those is where the smaller boat would have helped you, but it looks like you're doing a great job.

Make sure your hull is as absolutely flat as possible.

jason

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:11 pm
by sgorey
jasonmcintosh wrote: Make sure your hull is as absolutely flat as possible.
I spent a good deal of time with string, a square, a staight 2x4 and a tape measure to get it as flat and square as possible before taping and fiberglassing. But now that the outside is fiberglassed, it's not too flat anymore. Two layers of tape on the trasom, plus one for the hull seam, plus two layers of glass (where they overlap) gets pretty thick. Microballoons/Silica to the rescue.

I layed fiberglass over the bad spot tonight. It went pretty well, and the new scale revealed that my resin and hardener pumps aren't acurate (bought locally, not from bateau). 2:1 pumps did not equal 100g:43g (per the Epoxy book). It explains why I have more hardener then I should in comparison to the amount of resin I've used.

Steve

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:39 am
by tech_support
I think we have this straight, but I want to make certain - The 2:1 mix ratio is for volume, NOT weight.

Pumps are not as accurate as most graduated cups, but they are more convenient for smaller batches. Try using both together. For example for a 6 oz. batch; pump 4 oz of resin then look to see if your at 4 oz. on the cup, then 2 oz. hardener - then make sure your at 6.

The epoxies we sell are designed to be forgiving to the amateur, so unless there is a large mistake, you should be OK.

Joel

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:45 am
by jasonmcintosh
For the record, I used the pumps that came with my S3 epoxy kit and had excellent results. They seemed to pump a tad bit more hardener, but it probabaly amounted to a few cups over the 9 gallons of epoxy that the kit came with.
sgorey wrote: I'm going to need it to get a boat that looks half as good as the ones in the gallery.
Give yourself a big present and make sure you've got some good sanders for the fairing process. That's where all the good looks are achieved or lost. At least at a distance of 10' or less. Jacques et al have already given you the nice looking profile you'll see at a distance.

And thanks for the pictures. We all live off of seeing other's work...

jason

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:53 am
by tech_support
One more thing on the pumps. Cut a hole at the top of the bottle so some air can get into the bottle and prevent a vacuum from forming. If your doing 4+ pumps, you might notice it takes a while for the plunger to get back to the top if you don’t cut a small hole for the air. I always make sure the pump has reached the top and I give it a second after it stops before I press it down again.

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:00 am
by jasonmcintosh
Shine wrote:One more thing on the pumps. Cut a hole at the top of the bottle so some air can get into the bottle and prevent a vacuum from forming.
Doh! That would have helped. But then forcing myself to calmy wait for the plunger to come back up was a good exercise in patience that took some of the anxiety out of the fiberglassing process (something I had never done before).

I hope someone's keeping track of these tips and writing them down... Rick???

jason

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:06 am
by tech_support
For me; I hate mixing, absolutely hate it. :x

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:53 am
by sgorey
Shine wrote:I think we have this straight, but I want to make certain - The 2:1 mix ratio is for volume, NOT weight.

Pumps are not as accurate as most graduated cups, but they are more convenient for smaller batches. Try using both together. For example for a 6 oz. batch; pump 4 oz of resin then look to see if your at 4 oz. on the cup, then 2 oz. hardener - then make sure your at 6.

The epoxies we sell are designed to be forgiving to the amateur, so unless there is a large mistake, you should be OK.

Joel
Thanks for the persistence with the difference between weight and volume. It shows the dedication you have in supporting this site and business.

I think I'm set with the scale. Upon someone else's advice, I created a spreadsheet with the correct mix ratio of 100g:43g for 50 +- different amounts with +- tollerance. That way if I add a few more grams than ideal I can check to see if it's within a 5% tollerance (which I believe is well below the accepted amount). I also added amounts for microballons and silica. Mixing all ingredients into one container makes for quick and clean work.
Jason wrote: Give yourself a big present and make sure you've got some good sanders for the fairing process. That's where all the good looks are achieved or lost.
I think your right, though I don't think I'll be able to wait until Xmas to open it. I started this project by borrowing some tools from my father to save on the startup expense. I'm using his heavy duty disk and orbital sanders. They work good, but they are old and do not have vacuum. A coworker of mine was telling me about the one he has. It has a vacuum built in. He says it not only cleaner, but it does a much better job because it sucks the paper to the surface.

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:04 am
by sgorey
I tooks some time off from working on the boat during the winter months.

Recently, I added spray rails and a skeg.

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and

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I've got plent of work left for this spring and summer.

Steve

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:06 am
by jasonmcintosh
Looks nice.

I wonder how hard the phantoms pound through the chop. Now that I got used to my GF18 and have it trimmed deciently, the pounding is the major performance limiter. The phantoms have such a flat bottom, I can't imagine that they would be a whole lot better.

Jason

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:14 am
by tech_support
The phantom will perform in a chop like any other flats boat with similar shape. They do have a v bottom which is A LOT better than a totally flat bottom like the GF18

Like everything else in boats, its a compromise. The more v, the more power it takes and the deeper the daft.

How does a 18' Hewes skiff compare to a 18' Carolina skiff?

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:38 am
by sgorey
Shine wrote:... They do have a v bottom which is A LOT better than a totally flat bottom...
I'm glad to hear that. I too am wondering how it will handle chop.

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:47 am
by jasonmcintosh
I suppose the V, even with the flat botom, would help quite a bit. If I take the waves at an angle so that one of my chines hits them first, I get a smoother ride. I imagine that Phantoms would be something like that.

Can't wait to build my next boat, but that's years away.

Jason

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:41 am
by sgorey
Jason wrote: Can't wait to build my next boat, but that's years away.
at my current rate, it won't be years until I finish mine :cry:

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:57 am
by jasonmcintosh
It was 10 months from plans to water to build my GF18. My biggest issue with the time it took was telling my 6 year old boy "we're going to go fishing in this!". He was only 7 when we finally got to go... LONG time for a kid to wait. I like to think that he learned something from it though, other than don't build your own boat...

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:47 pm
by Steven
Pumping is the only way to go for me. My epoxy got below the pump tubes as it was running out and I had to measure the last couple of batches. UUGGHH!!! What a pain. Pumping is painless and I've never had a problem with a single batch. (Well, except when I lost track of my count while adding hardener to the already pumped out resin... DOH...)

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:24 pm
by Johnshan
Hey where in Maine are you? I am just outside of Portland I built an OB15.

-John

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:49 pm
by sgorey
I live in Scarborough off of the PinePoint Road.

I've seen the images of your OB15. I hope my PH18 turns out half as nice.

Steve

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:31 pm
by Johnshan
Well thanks for your kind comments, pictures do hide some imperfections thought! You look like your well on your way to a great boat. I have relatives who live right off pine point road, Ross Rd to be exact, im sure you know the deer farm and campground there. Keep us posted on your boat im down on the saco river every weekend fishing during the summer, take care.

-John

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:29 pm
by sgorey
I hope it turns out great. One thing for sure is that I'm learning a lot about what goes into boat building.

I'll keep the pictures coming. It will keep me motivated to work on it. Next task is to fill the weave with Quick Fair (hopefully this weekend).

Steve

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:51 pm
by Johnshan
the quickfair is awesome, I didnt have it when I did the hull but later got a kit of it to do some odds and ends inside and its great. Make sure you coat over the quickfair when your done with some epoxy to seal it all nice and smooth. I think thats more for finish but im sure it makes the surface a bit tougher as well.

Also the best advice given to me- only put down thin layers of quickfair, dont put down more then your willing to sand :D

Quickfair rocks

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:33 am
by sgorey
I've just begun fairing with Quickfair. The stuff works great.

I read somewhere that some builders use a "toothed" edge to apply the first layer. Apparently it makes sanding easier, then the second coat fills the grooves.

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I like the corduroy finish :wink:

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One more side to go and then back to sanding.

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:20 am
by pirate
interesting concept! let us know how it works for you...

thanks

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:22 am
by jasonmcintosh
I've read the "toothed" trowle thing before too. Seems like a great idea. Anything to save labor, outside of buying a boat...

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:52 am
by Dane_Ger
I have just begun fairing my FL14 so I'd be very interested in hearing how this process works for you! Your boat is looking good!

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:58 pm
by sgorey
Here's the thread that discusses using a notched trowel.

http://forums.bateau2.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4052

I agree with CaryB's comment ...
CaryB wrote:I think that it is overkill as an approach for general fairing. It would lead to excessive sanding and waste.
However, I went with the notched trowel anyway, because the sides and most of the bottom needed a good amount of fairing.

Dane_Ger: whether you use a notched trowel or not, make sure you buy Quickfair. The stuff goes on fast.

Steve

fairing is almost over

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:20 pm
by sgorey
I haven't spent much time on it. It's tough to stay motivated. Everytime I think I'm ready for primer I find another spot that needs fixin'.


I got my motor last weekend. It's a '91 Mariner 115hp.
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rubrails

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:58 pm
by sgorey
Added third layer of plywood tonight.

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Almost ready to prime.

hull almost primed

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:31 pm
by sgorey
Applied 2 coats of System 3 primer today.

Thanks Joel for the advice on buying a paint stirrer for the drill. It made quick work of mixing the "mud" at the bottom of the can.

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Here's a picture of the gas tank I salvaged from a rotten "fiberglass" boat that came with the motor and trailer I purchased.

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I'm finally making progress.

Steve

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:34 am
by Yoda
Your "rotten boat" fuel tank will save you a lot of money. Looks like a good tank.

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:44 am
by tech_support
Yoda wrote:Your "rotten boat" fuel tank will save you a lot of money. Looks like a good tank.
Yes, good find. There are several places that sell donated boats for cheap (Chapman Sea School in Stuart, FL is one). They have dozens of boat for sale at very low prices (some less then $2k) that would make perfect salvage boats. I didnt really think about it until after I had bought the trailer for my ph16. Salvage the motor, trailer and who knows what else (fuel tank, hardware, wiring harness, etc..). For those who are building more "work boat" style bateau's this might be something to look into.

Joel

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:50 am
by sgorey
Yoda wrote:Your "rotten boat" fuel tank will save you a lot of money. Looks like a good tank.
Plus the dimensions are perfect. I've been searching the internet for a tank, but the only ones over 12 gallons are around 12" high (too high). This one is only 7", with 2" hose, it's less than 12".
Shine wrote: Yes, good find.
...

Joel
I hope so. Though I won't know until I get the motor on the PH18 and give it a go.

Steve

hull is painted

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:11 pm
by sgorey
It's been a long time coming...but I finally painted the hull.

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I rolled and tipped 3 coats of Whidbey White and 2 coats of Clear. I'm extremely happy with the paint...the painter is another story. I started at 2am Saturday morning and finished at 9am. A couple of small drips and some dust and flies keeps it from looking too great.

I'll flip it in a few days and start on the inside...I can't wait to see wood again.

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:15 pm
by Jimmiller
PH18 is looking good .I'm building PH18 did you build it on a jig? :doh:
Keep up the good work . 8)

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:15 pm
by sgorey
Thanks Jim,

Yes, the jig is under there. I used 6+ 2x6" and 6 castors. I highly recommend building one. I can easily move it in and out of my garage to wash it and clean the garage.

Good luck with yours and make sure you take/post plenty of pictures and ask tons of questions. These guys on this web site know their stuff. I've made a few mistakes that could have been avoided with a couple of questions.

Steve

PH18

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:51 am
by Jimmiller
i'M GOING TO BUILD A JIG.i GOT 8CASTORS AND SOME 2X8X10 FOR
THE JIG.GOT ALL MY PLYWOOD CUT TO SIZE TODAY.

I READ ALL THE POST ON PH 15-16-18 :doh: BUT PUESTIONS WILL
COME UP????????????????????????????????????????????? :P


JIM [/u]

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:57 am
by Jimmiller
GOT TO READ POST BEFOR SUBMIT


:doh: Questions :roll:

production fiberglass boats weigh a ton...almost

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:58 am
by sgorey
I finally brought the boat I bought to salvage parts and an engine from to the dump last weekend.

I drove onto a scale on the way in to set an initial weight. The operator instructed me to drive to the back of the dump. He also said that if I was lucky, there might be someone back there that could help me take the boat of the trailer.

I guess I was lucky because there were two guys. One in a front end loader and the second in a backhoe. The guy in the backhoe instructed me to back the boat up to his tractor. He then lowered the backhoe into the boat and motioned me to drive forward.

Before I knew it, the boat was off the trailer and being smashed to pieces. I think it made his day.

I as drove out, I passed over the scale again. The difference in weight was 1760 lbs.

www.nada.com says the boat should weigh 1700 lbs. I was suprised to see the numbers so close. I figured the boat would weigh much more due to all of the rotted wood and water soaked foam floatation.

Anyway, it's gone and now I can fix up the trailer. After that I'll flip the boat and begin on the inside.

she's flipped.

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:05 pm
by sgorey
Finally, after so many months of seeing the bottom of the hull, it's now right side up. I can't wait to get back to epoxy and glassing. The fairing and painting almost got the best of me.

I had my brother and 4 neighbors help with the flipping. It was quick. We had it on the trailer in 5 minutes.

The picture isn't good. I didn't have enough light in my garage. I mainly uploaded it to show how big and wide the phantom 18 is. I left a shovel in the hull for reference.

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Thanks Rick for a brighter image.


My brother wanted to take it down to the marsh and see how it sets in the water, but we decided not to. I'll wait until the stringers and bulkheads are in place.

Steve

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:13 pm
by sgorey
taped the interior seams on the hull yesterday.

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Hopefully, I'll lay fiberglass tomorrow.

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:10 am
by sgorey
Fiberglassed the inside of the hull yesterday. It took around 6 hours. This time I used a rubber squeggy to remove extra epoxy in the cloth. It worked really nice.

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I'll let it cure, then begin work on installing the stringers.

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:17 am
by tech_support
good glass job :D

If you put it in the water before you add frames, floor, decks, and sole - the boat will float a lot higher than its designed to. You wont get a true feel for the boat until your close to its finished weight.

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:41 pm
by sgorey
Thanks Joel.

I had forgotten how much work goes into wetting out fiberglass. I couldn't imagine working on a 25 footer. 18 is enough for me.

Steve

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:02 pm
by tech_support
Its all about the method of application. With the right roller covers you can wet out 32 square feet of 1708 in 5 minutes or so; 48 oz. batches of epoxy at a time. Using a 2â€

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:54 pm
by caryb
Boy that picture looks very familiar... I was looking at the picture with the dry glass hanging over the inside of the hull. My 11 year old son walked by and asked why I was looking at old pictures. He was 8/9 years old during my PH18 build.

Thanks for bringing back good memories :D Boy I really need to build another boat :lol:

CaryB

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:27 pm
by sgorey
caryb wrote: ....Thanks for bringing back good memories :D Boy I really need to build another boat :lol:

CaryB
Good memories??? I've told my wife two times to never let me build another boat. One of those times was during the wetting out process on the inside of the hull. I hope when I have finished this boat I can look back and have good memories like you do. :lol:

Also, I'm glad to see so many builders with completed boats still commenting on the site. I've often wondered if I'll browse this site 5 times a day after my boat is completed.

Steve

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:48 pm
by Mike Adams
sgorey wrote: Also, I'm glad to see so many builders with completed boats still commenting on the site. I've often wondered if I'll browse this site 5 times a day after my boat is completed.
Steve
I think I'm addicted. I get withdrawal symptoms if I don't check the forum at least twice each day! :lol:

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:03 am
by sgorey
Well, after a long break, I've started working on my boat again.

Installed the stringers and will be moving onto the bulkheads after Thanksgiving.

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just intime for winter :cry:


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Happy Thanksgiving :)

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:34 pm
by sgorey
5 weeks = 5 bulkheads glassed to the hull.

The stringers and frames were more work than I expected, but they are now done.

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Some will notice that bulkhead C is not per plan. I plan to build dual consoles that will start at bulkhead C unless someone tells me it's a bad idea.

Thank you guys for posting so many pictures of completed boats. It keeps me motivated to work in a 40 degree garage.

Next up...cleats.

Steve

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:37 am
by jacquesmm
No problem with bulkhead C the way you did it. I think we discussed by email or on the board.
The stringers look thin. Are they made of two layers of plywood? That's what it should be.

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:34 pm
by sgorey
jacquesmm wrote:...The stringers look thin. Are they made of two layers of plywood? That's what it should be.
Jacques, please say you are thinking of a boat other than the Phantom 18. :help:

I've recheck the plans that I received. Nowhere does it say to double up the stringers.

The Study Plans and the building notes (pg 6 of 7) both state the boat requires 8 sheets of 9mm.

Plan number D209/3 shows 4 sheets are used for the deck and 4 are used for the bulkheads and stringers.

Steve

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:17 pm
by jacquesmm
Sorry for provoking worries but you are correct and I am wrong.
I look at so many pictures and messages that I forgot this was a Phantom and we use only one layer. In all other boats, we make the stringers from 2 layers with offset seams, it is easier to build.
It is right the way you did it, no need to change anything, sorry again.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:52 pm
by sgorey
Phew!! :D

It actually worked out. Not knowing what to do next prompted me to take the weekend off.

Thanks

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:26 pm
by JimW
jacquesmm wrote:Sorry for provoking worries but you are correct and I am wrong.
I look at so many pictures and messages that I forgot this was a Phantom and we use only one layer. In all other boats, we make the stringers from 2 layers with offset seams, it is easier to build.
It is right the way you did it, no need to change anything, sorry again.
Detail cache overload alert! Call to the tape silo relieves the panic.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:47 pm
by Lackofdistinction
I know one guy who had a very long weekend.
LOL
I think we all have had times like that during the learning process!

Glad it all worked out.

Josh :D

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:55 pm
by sgorey
JimW wrote: Detail cache overload alert! Call to the tape silo relieves the panic.
What did you say :doh:

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:57 am
by sgorey
I cut out the plywood for the floor. Man this boat is wide.

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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:47 pm
by sgorey
Well, the foaming is done.

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I know it's not perfect, but it was way easier than I thought it would be.

+ I warmed up parts A and B by placing them in a tub of water (thanks Shine)
+ calculated how many ounces of parts A and B was necessary for each compartment ( I found 16 oz of each part makes about 1 cubic foot of foam).
+ used 6 16 oz plastic cups for measuring.
+ poured both liquids in each compatment
+ used a 10" squeegee to mix the liquids

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:38 am
by Jimmiller
HI, Sgory your PH look good.Can't wait to flip my.How much foam did you used todo the hole boat?I will be painting my this weekend.









JIM
PH18 in the building stage

Great Job

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:20 pm
by Stripedbass-2
sgorey,
You've done a great job on the boat so far.

In an earlier section I noticed a notched trowel reference. I did that on my OD16 for the sides and it worked real well. the side set right in place and you could hear the air leaking out of the notches as the screws were tightened.
Mark

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:30 am
by sgorey
Jimmiller wrote:...How much foam did you used todo the hole boat?
I used 2 kits (4 gal). I went with the amount recommended on the fiberglass kit page. Iwould guess you would need to double it if you want to fill the whole boat.

Best of luck with painting. I used the role and tip method. If you do the same, be careful not to brush too much or after the paint starts to dry. I did and ended up with a few sections that show brush marks. But thats ok, I figure it'll be painted again in a few years. I'll probably try to spray it that time.

Steve

Re: Great Job

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:38 am
by sgorey
Mark Round wrote:sgorey,
You've done a great job on the boat so far.

In an earlier section I noticed a notched trowel reference...
Thanks, after 18 months, I'm getting excited to finish it.

The trowel worked well, though I think I ended up using much more quick fair then I would have if I faired another way. Thus, more sanding. I'm glad I'm done most of that...

Steve

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:10 pm
by sgorey
Anyone else's garage this messy?

Image

* glued the sole to the cleats.
* started taping sole to hull and bulkheads.
* :doh: not quite sure how I'm going to pull off dual consoles. It doesn't look like I'll have much leg room :(

PS. no jokes about the motor being on backwards. :D

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:46 pm
by MadRus
Steve,

That is a big boat, and it's coming along nicely. Messy garage... dude, please! I had about 12" clearance (on a good day) on one side of my boat and about 16" on the other the whole length of the boat and I managed to complete it like that.

That's a nice garage... I like the carrying I beam. That's some serious stuff.

-Dave

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:12 pm
by sgorey
I do like my garage...especially the storage above my head.

I'm glad it's the size it is. If it was any longer I would have built the Phantom 22. And at my build rate, it would take 10 years :D

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:17 pm
by sgorey
finished taping the sole to the stringers/bulkheads last night.

cut out wood for consoles.

registered the boat today. Very easy in Maine.

Length?
HP?
hull construction?
freshwater/saltwater both?

$60 please.

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:23 pm
by Johnshan
$60 bucks?!?!? Mine was only $30 or so last year, have things gone up or do you have a high HP?

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:23 pm
by sgorey
I'm not sure why yours was less. It might be, HP, length and both salt and fresh water.

Here's my breakdown.

excise tax: $28
Registration Fee: $21
Milfoil sticker: $10
Agent fee: $2
= $61

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:35 pm
by Johnshan
Wow, maybe its the excise tax thats the difference, I just visted the state and I see $26 for my ob15. I just moved to Windham so we shall see what they say when I register it this week :|

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:33 am
by sgorey
going with dual consoles on this ph18.

Image

I know it strays from a traditional flats boat, but passengers will appreciated the second console.

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:56 am
by StngStr
Can't wait for the next update!

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 8:03 am
by sgorey
I haven't worked on it much in the last month. I hurt my back at the end of April. Then spent a week in Disney with the family.

All I've done is worked on the motor well. It should finish it tonight.

My back is feeling better so hopefully I can get back to into building this week and make some real progress. I'm going to have to as I want to launch it for July 4th.

Steve

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:48 pm
by sgorey
Got the deck cut out. Just working on the cleats. Hopefullly the clieats will be done in a few days.

Image

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:18 pm
by timoub007
Looks like a dance floor!

Are you going to cut hatches in so that all of that space is storage? Rod locker(s)?

Looks great!

Tim

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:40 pm
by sgorey
Thanks Tim.

I've already cut 5 hatchs in the aft end. 1 on each side of the motor well for batteries and such and 3 infront of the motorwell. The center being reserved for a live well. Though it'll probably be used more as an ice chest.

I plan to have one anchor locker in the bow and three hatches in the next bulkhead. The one in the middle is for fuel tank access.

I may cut holes in the bulkhead between the bow and side compartment for rods. This will keep them out of the elements and site of theives.

Anyway, back to glueing on the cleats ...

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:53 am
by sgorey
Well the thing is primed.

Image

I cut a few corners on fairing the top side. I need to git er done.

Hopefully, I'll sand later this week and apply the top coat on Sunday.

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:45 am
by ks8
Looks great! Have you got the *make it go* box yet?

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:48 pm
by sgorey
That's ks!!

It's hard to see it, but it's a 1990 Mariner 115 to the left of the boat.

Growing up, my father had two boats. Each of which were under powered. I know this engine may be more than I need, but I'll never wish I had a larger engine.

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:04 pm
by stickystuff
I am running 1998 90HP Mariner on my PH 16 . 115 is not to much for the 18. You will be glad you have it.

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:52 pm
by sgorey
Thanks for the reassurance Ken. Hopefully the glad part will come in a few weeks.

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:46 pm
by sgorey
well she's painted

Image

I love this System 3 top coat.

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:53 pm
by Mike Adams
That's real sweet! You'll find a lot of heads turning to watch when you launch her. Congratulations on a fine job.

Mike

She floats...

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:41 pm
by sgorey
Image

I am amazed with how well it rides. I love it.

Thanks Jacques, Shine and the rest of you guys on this forum for the help when I needed it. Building this boat was an incredible experience that I won't soon forget.

I had a rough start this morning. The motor hadn't been run in over a year. It took a while to start. After about 30 seconds of high reving and more smoke than I've ever seen, the thing calmed down and ran smoothly. Though, I think I need to get it tuned up. The boat only went 30 mph (fish finder speedo). I expected atleast 45mph. I'll hook up the tachometer tomorrow to check the max rpms. I think I may also need to raise the motor one bolt, but that will need to wait until next weekend.

What a rush!!

Steve

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:07 pm
by timoub007
Congrats on your launch!!!

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:28 am
by stickystuff
Beautiful finish. I found the second hole gives you the best performance on the engine setup. I tried the third hole but got to much cavitation. so dropped it back down. Also a good stainless ptop with plenty of cup also helps. The Phantoms are great hull designs and the most solid fishing platforms I have ever fished on. Congrats. on the completion. :D

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:54 am
by sgorey
Here is a better picture of the boat.
Image

Ken, I'll try to get a picture of the ventalation plate while plaining. You guys have today knowledge of how high the motor should be. But like you, I'll lower the motor if I get caitation.

ph18 setup guidance

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:03 pm
by sgorey
First of all, I love my Phantom 18. I rides better than I expected and is awesome for fishing.

However, my current setup isn't performing as expected. The boat rides smooth only up to 32mph (4000rpms). It starts porposing when I trim the motor out more. I don't have a guage, so I don't know how much it is trimmed before the porposing begins. I don't think it is too far though as the stickers on the side of the motor make it appear that it isn't level with the water yet.
A couple of times I have continuted to trim the motor and held on during the porposing. The boat got up to 37mph, but it was not a ride I would do often.

My setup is.
1990 Mariner 115 hp with Quicksliver Laser II 20" SS prop
20gal fuel tank is installed under deck in bow.
I modified the cockpit by adding dual consoles.

Image

To remedy the porposing issue, I've had my 200lb brother sit up front while I trimmed the motor. It didn't help too much.

I've raised the motor two holes from it's original installation. No help.

I've added fins to the ventilation plate. No help.

I've looked for hook or rocker. I've taken the boat out the water and took a couple of pictures. This one is on the starboard side.
Image
It looks flat to me. The other side looks better than this one.

Here is a picture of the skeg also showing the transom edge.
Image
Notice the skeg is not tapered and approximately 8" from the transom. A lot of threads talk about having a sharp edge. I'm not apposed to making it sharp, but it's a lot of work and I'm not ready to do that yet.

I've had the timing adjusted. It idles great and sounds smooth at WOT.

I have a few more things I want to try, but they will cost money, so any advice on which direction I should go will be greatly appreciated.

1. Get the motor tuned. Even though it seems to be running well, it might not be.
2. Get a smaller pitch prop. A friend said he would loan me his 17" aluminum.
3. get the prop double cupped. I'm not sure what this means, but I've read a few that suggest doing it.

Thanks and sorry for this long post.
Steve :help:

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:10 pm
by jayb01
When it starts to porpoise, can you just trim it down to where it's gone or at least tolerable. What speed and rpms can you obtain without the porpoising?

You might need trim tabs if your motor is set up correctly.

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:01 am
by FLYonWALL9
I :doh: hmmmm. You trim the motor closer to
the transom and its still porposing even with a
heavier load on the bow? My boat was doing this
and would level off with weight on the bow.
However, my motor trim is very tight to the
transom. My fin also isn't a wing tipe its one that
is more behind the prop.

Only thing I can really think of is transom angle
but that really thin... I guess the only real thing
could be the skeg?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:05 am
by sgorey
Thanks guys for the replys.
jayb01 wrote:When it starts to porpoise, can you just trim it down to where it's gone or at least tolerable. What speed and rpms can you obtain without the porpoising?
Yes, WOT with very little trim gets it to 32mph with no porposing. RPM is at 4000-4100.
FLYonWALL9 wrote:my motor trim is very tight to the transom.
Mine too
I've thought of the skeg too, but I thought the turbulance it might make would cause the engine to rev, which it's not doing.

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:49 am
by tech_support
I am wondering about the height of the motor, you mention it has been brought up by two holes. Could you give us a picture of the engine cavitation plate in relation to the bottom of the hull.

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:06 am
by sgorey
shine,

It is definitely high, probably 3-4 inches. Initially, it was level with the hull bottom. Then I read FLYonWALL9's thread that he raised his motor 2 holes and found success. I attempted the same.

I plan to lower it atleast one hole, but before doing so, I'll take a picture and post it tonight.

I'll also take a picture of the prop. I thought it would be fine, but after looking at it last night, it looks like someone ( that didn't know what they were doing) tried to cup it.

Thanks

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:09 am
by JimW
If your wide open throttle is only 4100 rpms. Either your motor has a problem or your prop is way too big. Too much pitch and maybe too much diameter. If someone tried to add cup to the prop that would make it even a higher "effective" pitch. I would play some musical prop games with lowere pitch before I did anything else.

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:39 pm
by Cracker Larry
I think Jim is right. The prop is too big. You need a prop that will put the RPMs in the recommended range at WOT. That is probably not causing the porpoising, but you've got to get it set up right before you move on. I'd borrow some props. Likely you will end up with something about 17.5.

Raising the engine probably increased the porpoising effect. 3 to 4 inches is pretty high. I'd lower it an inch or 2.

Add an extra cooler of beer in front of the console.

Install trim tabs.

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:46 pm
by sgorey
shine wrote:...Could you give us a picture of the engine cavitation plate in relation to the bottom of the hull.
This is current height. The trim is level with the hull. I wish I could trim it this much while planing.
Image
The hockey stick is 1 inch wide. It is 2 inches below the cavitation plate.

The holes 3/4 inch apart, thus the original install is 1/2 inch above hull. I can't go down to the lowest hole without the steering cable hitting the motor well walls.

This picture of the prop shows a little damage.
Image

This picture shows how thin it is. It can't be very strong.
Image

Thoughts??

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:54 pm
by sgorey
Cracker Larry wrote: Add an extra cooler of beer in front of the console.
I like that Idea.

I actually plan to add a trolling motor and store the batteries in the bow. I've been running it with less than 10 gals of fuel. The tank is under the bow. Keeping it up to almost full (20 gals) and 100 lbs of batteries should help balance the weight out a lot.

I'm not too familiar with trim tabs. How well do the help with porposing?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:34 pm
by Newt
Do you have a good prop shop in your area? IF so, talk to the guy & give him your boats symtoms & show him the prop. He may reccommend another prop or be able to fix this one. Some props will have bow lift. If it can't hold it, you'll porpoise.

The square edge on the back of the skag will cause turbulence. However if your prop isn't losing it's bite, it's not a problem.

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:51 pm
by jasonmcintosh
Tilting your motor so the prop is more forward should help with the porposiing. I was considering (I'm still considering them actually) buying something called a "transom wedge" that adds about 5 degrees to the transom angle. You may wan to consider them. Heck of a lot cheaper than trim tabs, but they may not be the solution you're after.

Nice boat.

Jason

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:36 pm
by jayb01
Well you motor is certainly high enough. You may have to lower it back down a notch or two.

I suspect (but not completely sure) your motor should be turning close to 5500 rpms. IF (big if) there's nothing wrong with your motor, you have way too mutch pitch and you are lugging the motor. Each 1" drop in pitch will increase RPMs by about 200 RPMs. So you need to drop about 6" in pitch - all else being equal. If your prop was "customed" cupped then it may have increased the effective pitch so a standard prop may not need to be quite 6" less. :doh:

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:21 am
by golfconnection
Wait a minute how does he know what WOT is? If he is porpoising that bad I doubt he close to WOT. Therefore the pitch of the prop may not be off that bad. I fail to see how pitch affects porpoising other than how it was mentioned earlier that the prop is blowing out and the bow is falling. However diameter would be better suited to fixing that problem it seems to me.

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:00 am
by Newt
golfconnection wrote:Wait a minute how does he know what WOT is? If he is porpoising that bad I doubt he close to WOT. Therefore the pitch of the prop may not be off that bad. I fail to see how pitch affects porpoising other than how it was mentioned earlier that the prop is blowing out and the bow is falling. However diameter would be better suited to fixing that problem it seems to me.
I don't recall anyone saying the prop was blowing out. If the prop has rake, (I think that's the correct term) it can affect bow lift. That's why he really needs to talk to a good prop guy.

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:08 am
by sgorey
I'll lower my motor 2 holes and get a different prop. I'm also going to load the bow with a bunch of weight. I think a lot of my problem is with weight distribution.

Thanks for all you comments.

Steve

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:41 pm
by golfconnection
Newt wrote: Some props will have bow lift. If it can't hold it, you'll porpoise.

.
You care correct in that it may not be blowing (cavitating) but the prop cannot hold the bow up and therefore the up and down motion is what he is describing.

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:39 pm
by stickystuff
OK. Here goes y opinion. I have the PH 16, running a 90 Mariner, 19" stainless. First off the second hole is the best spot as far as engine performance. Second, you definitely need a sharper trailing edge at the transom bottom. ?, Is your transom 20". I also have poirposing problems if trimmed to high. I have 20 gallon fuel tank under consol. If I use a full cooler full of ice and drinks in front of consol it performs flawlessly. At 3/4 throttle I am running 4200rpm. Maybe you need to step down to a 19" prop. Dogging the engine is not good. :doh: I have preached this before but will bring it up again. Before you mount your consols you need to find the center of gravity of the hull. (The balanceing point) YOu can do this by laying a two by four across the bottom of the hull and balance the hull on this. Now you know the C/G. Set your consol approx 2/3 up past the C/G. By this I mean 2/3 the size of your consol. In this case approx 16" up from c/g.This will givee you the weight forward to usually allow the hull to perform as designed. Not all hulls are the same. In the case of the Phantoms you are dealing with flat bottom. Very slight deadrise. You have a lot of hull on the water and you have to make it do what you want. In your case you may have to add trim tabs.Like I said. best performance is a sharp trailing edge at the transom bottom. this alows water to shoot straight back instead of rolling up. I am guessing you have a lot of backwash spray. Am I right here. Also the keel should be at least 12" forward of the transom with a beveled edge. Pain in the butt to do it now but you will see some diff. in performance. Drop one prop size with a double cup and your engine should run at 5500 like it is supposed to. Good luck. It will work out. you just have to make a few changes.

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:42 pm
by stickystuff
By the way, Beautiful boat. very nice job.

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:27 pm
by sgorey
Thanks Ken. I love the phantom. Not too many people I know have ever seen a flats boat before. However, they like the looks of it, and lthey especially like how it rides.

I agree on the sharper transom edge. That'll be a winter project. I'll modify the keel at the same time
.
I plan to lower the motor back to the second hole tonight after the kids go to bed. The transom is 20".

A friend is going to lend me his 17" prop. After I try it, I'll know if I should stick with the 17 or go up to a 19.

Concerning the center of gravity, I mistakenly modified the cockpit plans by replacing the center console with dual consoles and neglected to figure out where they should go for weight distribution. Instead, out of convenience, I used bulkhead C as the front of the consoles. I'm guessing they are more aft then they should be. However, this may workout once I add trolling batteries to the bow.

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:47 am
by sgorey
rubrail 1 - house 0

Image

I guess I was a little too excited to launch it for the first time this spring. I wasn't paying attention to how close I had parked it next to the garage.

No damage to the rubrail. Once again, amazing strength on these boats.

Steve

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:20 pm
by ks8
Congrats! Nice sole. Expecting battle? :lol:

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:44 pm
by sgorey
My daughter picked the color. I didn't like it at first, but I do now.

ks, when are you launching your boat. I'd like to see it. I'm impressed with the level of detail you achieve. Now that my boat isn't new, I notice a bunch of things I should have taken more time to finish.

I guess, I'll just wait until I need to repaint it.

Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:44 pm
by ks8
What town are you near in Maine?

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:34 am
by sgorey
I live in Scarborough. It's a few miles south of Portland. We're world famous for our mosquitoe population :)

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:34 pm
by ks8
Ya. The mosquitoes that fly away with a moose! I've got relatives near Bath and will be trailering Measure of Faith there either this fall or next year. I don't think the trim paint will be done this year, but maybe, if all goes as planned, we can coordinate a few hours on that trip.

Got too much on the plate right now to plan it, but it sounds like a great idea. I think I'll stop in to see Dave first (Madrus), but again, too much between now and then to know for sure.

Great job on the phantom. :)

Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:00 pm
by sgorey
ks,

I know what you mean about too much to do. I thought I was done last August. I was wrong. That's ok, it's fun working on it.

Steve

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:52 pm
by sgorey
Well, it's been almost a year since it's first launch and finally it's going like it should.

I've spent a few hours learning how to rebuild carbs and a fuel pump. Now the motor is running on all 4 cylinders.

No matter how bad sanding is, I'd rather do that than work on engines.