VG23 New Build

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mhd
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by mhd »

Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:45 pm Jib sheet self steering with the VG23 planned COE would be smarter than modifying to a yawl. Unless you’ve done a lot of sailing (which I can’t recall if you have) I wouldn’t modify the rigging at all and would a stick to the designed plan.

Have fun
Hi Jaysen,

I certainly take on board what you say - if the designer thought it would be better rigged as a yawl, he would have designed it like that. Simpler for sure and almost certainly faster into the wind. And more of a conventional proven design (Serpentaire). Then again, being able to experiment is part of the fun of building your own boat, and I'm enjoying considering all possibilities.

Very little sailing experience - at least of the type this boat is planned for. Dinghys when I was a kid and some recent ASA courses for a week off California. But to be fair, the boat we're building is not planned for current sailing experience; rather on what (I hope) our level is in 12 or 24 months time after some time working up with coastal stuff. I read John Letcher's book on the self-steering that he figured out and used on his 20' boat on the passage to Hawaii and then back to California via Alaska in the 60s. Yes, I agree, sheet-to-tiller will be the aim and I have that in mind when building, but I like the potential different sail plans that a yawl gives - but only if it works. A similar passage to that described above is the goal before too long. So I'll do the calcs and will probably test out the mizzen as it isn't that much work. If it is too complicated or inefficient I''ll bin the idea.

How well does self-steering work on your boat?

Cheers,

Mick
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

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Jaysen
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by Jaysen »

On the ketch I sailed a bit (Shannon 37) it was mostly double reefed main/mizzen and furled jibs in the open. If any real sail work … just main/mizzen. Full keel boat. The only time the extra sail mattered was wide open, days on a heading with consistent wind that required no reefs. I never experienced that.

Racing a J30… triple reefed main, furler jib, super easy to sail and tweak sail area. Swap jibs between. 150, 120, 100 or full kite was the most extensive effort. That took us less than 120seconds.

Catalina 47 set up for cruising short handed. Roller main, dual roller jibs. Relatively infinite reefing. We tested jib wind steering in this with the emergency tiller. Was better than the b&g auto pilot.

1958? Contessa 27. 4x circumnavigated. 12x bidirectional transat. This all wood beauty had a boom based roller main. Dual hanked 7/8s jib stays 3/4 club footed cutter. The only wind steering she ever had was jib sheet steer. Not really jib as it was almost always done from the cutter per the owner. He’s the one who helped me figure out my…

Helms 24. Dual reefed main, split track furler jib with 120 loaded. Spent 20min with Jim from the contessa applying the theory and setting up an a extra snatch (my car tracks allow initial direction change). In a hugely wind shadowed channel (Port Royal Sound in Beaufort SC) it took me and Patrick (experienced sailor) 5min to balance the single reefed main and jib, rig the steering and get it set.

I will never pay for wind vane or autopilot unless required by SOR. This shit works.

I recommend using a combination of shock chord and surgical tubing. You need the extra stretch the tubing provides but higher winds want the shock chord stronger resistance. It’s also odd sitting lee side to steer. You get used to it fast.

You can play with this in any hull with a jib in the sail plan. Find some beat up pile in a barn and play with it. Not sure a rental will let you mess with sheet routing enough to make it work.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

mhd
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by mhd »

Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:35 pm On the ketch I sailed ...

You can play with this in any hull with a jib in the sail plan. Find some beat up pile in a barn and play with it. Not sure a rental will let you mess with sheet routing enough to make it work.
Thanks mate, Super-helpful. You have the experience - not me. As a pretty much novice on serious sailing, when I'm researching things I find there are so many options and opinions and very experienced die-hard adherent to almost every type of rig or sail plan or boat or whatever. I've read so much now, and I'm working through all the boat design theory with Westlawn, but theory only gets you so far - the main thing I need now is my own practical experience - hard to get on a regular basis in the middle of the desert in New Mexico!!!

I've no interest in racing, but cruising (offshore) is the dream...the reason I started building is to make it happen. I think it is possible to get the boat in the water in the next 12 months...we shall see.

Contessa 27 or 32? Either way I'm envious!!!!! The 32 is the dream. If I win the lottery it I'd have one built from scratch. But I suppose to win the lottery I'd have to buy a lottery ticket first ;-)

I really appreciate your comments. I might not follow everything you or anyone else recommends, but I take it all in and I fully appreciate the time take to comment. The sail plan for the VG23 is definitly cruising, rather than racing.

Cheers,

Mick
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

mhd
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by mhd »

Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:35 pm Helms 24. Dual reefed main, split track furler jib with 120 loaded. Spent 20min with Jim from the contessa applying the theory and setting up an a extra snatch (my car tracks allow initial direction change). In a hugely wind shadowed channel (Port Royal Sound in Beaufort SC) it took me and Patrick (experienced sailor) 5min to balance the single reefed main and jib, rig the steering and get it set.
Good to hear!!! If it takes 100x 20 minutes I'll be happy!!!
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

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Jaysen
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by Jaysen »

I really just want to sail places and see things. Mostly just sit in the middle of the ocean and marvel at it. My biggest issue is violent sea sickness and a wife that only asks that we do this together (not really a problem).

My dream boat… Hans Christian 37 cutter rigged (ketch). The ketch works on a 10ton boat as you don’t need as light a wind to stretch all the canvas. Also, it is weeks on a single heading crossing oceans … so yeah. Ketch works.

The program for us is 2yr Caribbean. Then transat east for 6mo west EU followed by transat west. Island hop back here before a trip through the Panama Canal and the start of the “big, dumb idea” over a pile of years. At least 3 in the pacific.

My racing was a way to get forced into being a better, more efficient, sailor. I also want to participate in a global solo circumnavigation race based on a one design, self built, 5.8m hull. I have license for hull number 4. I’ve missed the first transatlantic and may never build the boat. Kind of sucks but… worse things have happened.

If I were to give you one piece of gold advice, it would be this. Stop thinking and start sailing. All the theory and experience of others doesn’t mean much of it doesn’t fit your style. You won’t know what actually works for you until you have time on the water and find out what you hate. I’ve never found what I like as much as I’ve hated things and realized “this makes me want to burn the boat, what else can I do?” You only figure that out with time on the water. As much time as you can afford. Fresh water on a pond is better than time in a chair. 3m seas in 15kn winds teaches you much faster.

You can’t go wrong with the VG23. As tempting as it is to make changes be very slow to change anything important. All the unimportant stuff is fair game.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

mhd
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by mhd »

Jaysen wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:35 pm ...start of the “big, dumb idea”

If I were to give you one piece of gold advice, it would be this. Stop thinking and start sailing.

You can’t go wrong with the VG23. As tempting as it is to make changes be very slow to change anything important.
Can only agree with what you wrote entirely. I enjoy the building but it is a means to an end - sailing is the aim. To build as fast as is practically possible without making any major disasters along the way. The intellectual challenge of learning something new is a lot of fun too, and very addictive but only as a hobby - I've got/had a career and don't need another. I want to enjoy what remains.

I won't change anything in the VG23 that I can't change back. I trusted Jacques - that's why it is this boat and not another. And I'm on this forum and not any other for the people on here.

Yep, when I read your thread on MINI 580 it struck a real chord. Like a lot of things in life for anyone, if we want it enough we try and make it happen. If it doesn't then that is just how things turned out and there is no need to look back or have regrets. Life gets in the way of a lot of things and if you do one thing you can't do another.

"I really just want to sail places and see things. " Amen. I'm blessed with someone who thinks the same. I hope we make it. No failure if not - sometimes things are beyond control, and there is always something else to do.

An office mate of mine once said that life wasn't wasted as long as you "learned something new each day". I think that is a pretty good philosophy.

"Hans Christian 37". Just took a peek. That is a pretty boat. A beauty.

Okay. We're on the 2nd bottle of wine and getting philosophical now so time to stop typing :-)

Cheers,

Mick
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

mhd
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by mhd »

Busy the last three days. I've just completed gluing on all the port cockpit cleats for the seat and have taped them also. Did the same for the top of the port skirt.

Next job, hopefully tomorrow, I'll cut a hole in the seat for the hatch. I've never built my own hatches before, but aim to make the two in the cockpit seats water-tight. If I could have bought off-the-shelf hatches of the right size I would have done, but even if it takes some time it will probably be nicer to have them flush fitting and home-made. I'm also hoping to get at least one of the settee/berth seats rough-cut and dry-fitted too.

Mick
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

mhd
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by mhd »

The cleats are glued for the port cockpit seat and sole now and it just needs a final sanding over before primer and paint.

I've dry-fitted all the cleats for the cabin settee berths and the seats have been dry fitted also. They are angled very slightly inboard and forward so any drips of water won't move to the portion of the berth under the upper-locker. Glueing and taping those cleats in will be then next job. I was worried that the berths would be uncomfortably narrow but that isn't the case at all and I can easily imagine sleeping soundly. They are plenty wide/long enough (21-25" W and 78" L).

After that is all done I'll do the same for the forward v-berth.

Mick

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FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

mhd
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by mhd »

I already wish I had a dollar for every time I've banged my head on the central beam in the cabin...

I doubt that is going to change so I'll fit something to soften the blow when the boat is on the water :-)
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

Jeff
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Re: VG23 New Build

Post by Jeff »

Nice progress Mick!! Be careful building!! Jeff

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